Cable size

[uksparks]

you should be able to see if it is PME without calling them.

I wont help even if it's not anyway.

 

[uksparks]

Not the same. No.

Thats only on the basis you can get s guarantee from the DNO it will never change.

 

[spark 68]

Even if it is PME you may well find there are earth rods already fitted, a lot of newer PME industrial units have earth rods fitted, a look around the perimeter of the building often you will see the inspection pits

 

[Guest125]

i like the idea but there just isn't the option to do this unfortunately due to it being a car park immediately outside the building.

I would say tough. To much risk.

 

[uksparks]

I must say I didn't notice any having walked all round it a couple of times.

 

[Guest125]

I seem to think this is going to be more problematic than planned for.

i think other than connecting the rod to the met there's probably not a lot of choice.

Not to the MET. The rod would earth the VCP only.

 

[davesparks]

I seem to think this is going to be more problematic than planned for.

Where's the problem?

-Install the charging point.
-Install this little length of SWA, connect it to the charging point.
-Install earth rods, utilise the root of this charging point and the rebar of the concrete pad as part of this, test it and add more rods as required then connect it to the MET.
-Test and fill in the paperwork.
-Send your invoice and get your money.

 

[uksparks]

Not to the MET. The rod would earth the VCP only.

Point two suggests connecting it to the MET

 

[davesparks]

Not to the MET. The rod would earth the VCP only.

Why not? It'll be much better for the installation as a whole to have a decent earth nest connected to the MET than it will to have what is effectively a big external socket connected to its own earthing reference in such close proximity to the metal building bonded to the PME earth.

 

[uksparks]

I'm so I'll just run 16mm swa to the charge point, connect it to the met, and also connect an earth rod in for good measure.

Ok so we have a plan of action, it says in point two, a rod of very low resistance. Can anyone telld what if says in 722 of the regs as have not got a BYB yet.

 

[Guest125]

Why not? It'll be much better for the installation as a whole to have a decent earth nest connected to the MET than it will to have what is effectively a big external socket connected to its own earthing reference in such close proximity to the metal building bonded to the PME earth.

I cannot answer that TBH. Just does not sound right.

 

[uksparks]

I guess I could put a rod or two in the base of the unit as looking at it, I'll be able to do this quite nicely, make connecting it easy.

 

[Guest125]

I guess I could put a rod or two in the base of the unit as looking at it, I'll be able to do this quite nicely, make connecting it easy.

As long as the connection is accessible.

 

[spark 68]

I guess I could put a rod or two in the base of the unit as looking at it, I'll be able to do this quite nicely, make connecting it easy.

You need to space your rods apart more than 1.5 X the length of the rods mind.

 

[davesparks]

I cannot answer that TBH. Just does not sound right.

Why doesn't it sound right? Adding an extra earth electrode to the PME supply is only going to improve it and make your installation safer in the event of an external neutral fault. This is exactly what is recommended in the regulations for swimming pools fed via a PME supply and is required practice for PME supplies in other parts of the world.

 

[davesparks]

I'm so I'll just run 16mm swa to the charge point, connect it to the met, and also connect an earth rod in for good measure.

Ok so we have a plan of action, it says in point two, a rod of very low resistance. Can anyone telld what if says in 722 of the regs as have not got a BYB yet.

I always start with 2off 8'x5/8" rods spaced 10' apart and then test that and work up from there.

The earth electrode(s) should be connected back to the MET, not to the end of your new circuit.

 

[uksparks]

I always start with 2off 8'x5/8" rods spaced 10' apart and then test that and work up from there.

The earth electrode(s) should be connected back to the MET, not to the end of your new circuit.

not even if connected with a 10mm cpc?

 

[Guest125]

Why doesn't it sound right? Adding an extra earth electrode to the PME supply is only going to improve it and make your installation safer in the event of an external neutral fault. This is exactly what is recommended in the regulations for swimming pools fed via a PME supply and is required practice for PME supplies in other parts of the world.

It just does not. I am not dismissing you or belittle your post. I am all ears and would like to understand more. I would have though somewhere in BS7671 it would say something like to earthing systems cannot be in one location. Guess guess guess. Not fact!!!!

don't get many swimming pools on the railways although the unions are thinking about this 'right' in there current talks.

 

[Guest125]

I always start with 2off 8'x5/8" rods spaced 10' apart and then test that and work up from there.

The earth electrode(s) should be connected back to the MET, not to the end of your new circuit.

Wont the fault then take the path with least resistance which is bound to be the PME earth which pretty much makes the earth rod pointless?

 

[spark 68]

Wont the fault then take the path with least resistance which is bound to be the PME earth which pretty much makes the earth rod pointless?

If the Rods can achieve around sub ohm Ra they will be effective, also the way I read it they are as backup in case of a broken DNO Neutral to keep Ut low.

 

[davesparks]

It just does not. I am not dismissing you or belittle your post. I am all ears and would like to understand more. I would have though somewhere in BS7671 it would say something like to earthing systems cannot be in one location. Guess guess guess. Not fact!!!!

don't get many swimming pools on the railways although the unions are thinking about this 'right' in there current talks.

You aren't mixing earthing systems.

A PME supply has an earth rod connected at regular intervals from the substation right up to the end of the cable run. All you are doing is adding another electrode which is connected at the MET of the installation. The big danger with PME is when the neutral becomes broken between your installation and the DNOs earth rods, having your own rod connected to your installation mitigates the danger in your installation.

 

[Guest125]

If the Rods can achieve around sub ohm Ra they will be effective, also the way I read it they are as backup in case of a broken DNO Neutral to keep Ut low.

I hear you and it makes so much sense I am at a loss to why it is not done on all PME installations. There must be a reason no?

 

[davesparks]

Wont the fault then take the path with least resistance which is bound to be the PME earth which pretty much makes the earth rod pointless?

Its not there for the fault current, it's there to maintain the installation's earthing and bonding at true earth potential in the event of the loss of the supply CNE connection

 

[Guest125]

You aren't mixing earthing systems.

A PME supply has an earth rod connected at regular intervals from the substation right up to the end of the cable run. All you are doing is adding another electrode which is connected at the MET of the installation. The big danger with PME is when the neutral becomes broken between your installation and the DNOs earth rods, having your own rod connected to your installation mitigates the danger in your installation.

see post 122

 

[telectrix]

Wont the fault then take the path with least resistance which is bound to be the PME earth which pretty much makes the earth rod pointless?

not pointless. in the event of the supply N being lost, the rod will provide an alternative earth path for a fault on the installation.

 

[uksparks]

Ill have to go back and dig a hole to see whats there, I will not be able to just leave this and turn up on the day to do the job.

So are you saying connect the rod to the end of the circuit yes?

 

[Guest125]

I hear you all. I just cannot believe this is not a standard practice. Seems like sense in all PME supplies.

 

[Leesparkykent]

no connect the rod to the main earthing terminal not at the end of the circuit

 

[Guest125]

Ill have to go back and dig a hole to see whats there, I will not be able to just leave this and turn up on the day to do the job.

So are you saying connect the rod to the end of the circuit yes?

I have no reason to disbelieve what these guys are saying with regards to earth ridding to the MET.

 

[uksparks]

Not to the MET. The rod would earth the VCP only.

You say not to the MET...

Why doesn't it sound right? Adding an extra earth electrode to the PME supply is only going to improve it and make your installation safer in the event of an external neutral fault. This is exactly what is recommended in the regulations for swimming pools fed via a PME supply and is required practice for PME supplies in other parts of the world.

You say at the end of the circuit.

no connect the rod to the main earthing terminal not at the end of the circuit

You say to the MET

I have no reason to disbelieve what these guys are saying with regards to earth ridding to the MET.

You are now saying to the MET.

Which is it??

 

[davesparks]

So are you saying connect the rod to the end of the circuit yes?

No, although this is my opinion only at the moment as I can't reference regulations off the too of my head, my logic is as follows.
This earth nest (not just a rod, multiple rods interconnected) is going to have a low (sub 2 ohm hopefully) Ra so it will see its share of diverted neutral currents from the whole installation. I would prefer that this wasn't flowing through the circuit CPC so that of anyone working there in the future disconnects the circuit they aren't going to get a surprise when they disconnect the CPC.

 

[davesparks]

You say not to the MET...



You say at the end of the circuit.



You say to the MET



You are now saying to the MET.

Which is it??

I didn't say the end of the circuit, or if I did it was a mistake.

 

[Leesparkykent]

i havent got the BYB yet but ive had a flick through the BGB and from your situation i think this option of connecting an earth electrode to the MET is the best in this situation.

 

[uksparks]

Can I not connect it to the armouring to take it back to the MET or the CPC of the circuit? Do I have to run in another 10mm earth, I then have the hassle of protecting the earth cable when it leaves the wall and into the ground...

 

[uksparks]

I didn't say the end of the circuit, or if I did it was a mistake.

That was probably be misreading you.

 

[spark 68]

Can I not connect it to the armouring to take it back to the MET or the CPC of the circuit? Do I have to run in another 10mm earth, I then have the hassle of protecting the earth cable when it leaves the wall and into the ground...

I thought you were going 16mm^ now ?

 

[uksparks]

I thought you were going 16mm^ now ?

Yes I am using 16mm 3 Core SWA for the entire length.

 

[davesparks]

I hear you all. I just cannot believe this is not a standard practice. Seems like sense in all PME supplies.

You'll have to ask the regulations committee about that one.
But it is common in many larger PME supplied installations. And if an installation has extensive underground metallic services or structural steelwork then via the main bonding this will act as an earth electrode.

 

[telectrix]

all this hassle for charging a toy car. :icon6:

 

[Leesparkykent]

what about connecting to the rebar in the reinforced concrete base?

 

[uksparks]

I thought you were going 16mm^ now ?

Sorry I don't know why I said 10mm, hang about, would it have to be 16mm as its strictly speaking a main earthing conductor.

 

[uksparks]

all this hassle for charging a toy car. :icon6:

I know, its silly isnt it!

 

[davesparks]

Can I not connect it to the armouring to take it back to the MET or the CPC of the circuit? Do I have to run in another 10mm earth, I then have the hassle of protecting the earth cable when it leaves the wall and into the ground...

It is up to you, I have presented my reasoning for connecting it directly back to the MET. If you think this is wrong or whatever then you don't have to follow it.

 

[uksparks]

what about connecting to the rebar in the reinforced concrete base?

This is the base, its only about 300mm deep.

 

[spark 68]

what about connecting to the rebar in the reinforced concrete base?

Dave mentioned that way way back lol

 

[uksparks]

It is up to you, I have presented my reasoning for connecting it directly back to the MET. If you think this is wrong or whatever then you don't have to follow it.

I accept what you are saying and fully understand why you have come to that way of thinking, but just to put a charger in, it seems a little like I am suddenly taking on the entire installation and trying to protect that opposed to just my bit of work.

 

[davesparks]

Sorry I don't know why I said 10mm, hang about, would it have to be 16mm as its strictly speaking a main earthing conductor.

Of course not, I'd be inclined towards 10mm as it will be subjected to the same currents as the main bonds.

 

[Guest125]

You say not to the MET...



You say at the end of the circuit.



You say to the MET



You are now saying to the MET.

Which is it??

Me personally right now would earth at the end of the circuit. BUT, Wednesday when I am in the office I am going to look at what the other guys said, compare this to what I can find in the BYB and make a decision about how I would do it in the future.

Remember. YOU need to be happy that it complies.

 

[Leesparkykent]

Dave mentioned that way way back lol

trying to steal dave's thunder lol

 

[uksparks]

Me personally right now would earth at the end of the circuit. BUT, Wednesday when I am in the office I am going to look at what the other guys said, compare this to what I can find in the BYB and make a decision about how I would do it in the future.

Remember. YOU need to be happy that it complies.

My BYB will arrive on Wednesday too so will look then. I think it will probably end up just being a rod(s) at the end of the circuit.