Campaign for an electrician's licence scheme...Please Read...

[Jason Smith]

its not the bloke who wires an extensoin lead off a socket is it jason,and says whats wrong with that,i wanted to tell him that doing 3 years of evening college while holding down a full time job and getting home at 10pm,doing exam after exam.2360 pt1 & 2,16th/17th edition ,2391,etc and cheeky git asks me whats wrong,the clients need to be more aware through national press,just like gas safe,they would not let anyone not qualified do gas so why should electrics not be shown as much,in my view more dangerous,i saw a place the other day where tenant had used old kinder egg shell to put choc block for outside light,not ip66 lol

Hi mate, no thats not the one,he appears to of disappeared, or his work not surfaced again. The one that am looking out for quoted for a rewire (vermin ) took alarge deposit, did half of loft and scarpered when it was pointed out to him that precautions should of been taken.
unfortunately for him the elderly owners son has knowledge of electrical installations because it is a fringe area of his job, hence him being pulled up on his work. Unmarked van etc, and more or less untraceable.

 

[RexT]

Hi all,

The points raised are all valid, at least I think they are. It does seem that we do get the rough end of the stick for some reason. Electricians are or apppear to be under valued compared to other trades. It would be better for all that we have good visibility in the publics eyes like the gas guys. After all, we have been to college etc (and I am now working at one part time in the electrical dept), and we can all understand the points mentioned about how much time was put in studying for the qualifications.

Isnt it about time that the organisations presently involved in the electrical trade got together and made one voice - put the case to these politicians or powers that be to put a working system in being that truely covers what we all say we want.

I must admit I am fed up at being undercut because I cost for doing it right and will not do a dangerous job.

Oh well, sorry for the rant guys, just I would like things to change but I have to be grown up and realise that somewhere money is cutting out cloth accordingly.

Best wishes

Rex

 

[elektrisien]

You are correct the "proper" apprentice scheme ended in 1984 since then it has been hacked around for no good reason



I don't know any electricians with a degree which I think is a requirement to be an engineer



As a spark who served a five year apprenticeship across all the domestic, commercial and industrial sectors with 5 years at college on day release and subsquently did various evening, distance learning and job related courses I have expanded my knowledge far beyond that of most electricians to be told that this counts for nothing I take as an insult

I think you will find generally that installation methods have not changed that much only the materials used

A good electrician is a multi skilled tradesman with an ability to install alot of the modern technology




If education is so important why do you not include on the job training as education
I think you will find a doctor has to go "on the tools" for a few years after studying to become qualified



College is only as hard and difficult as you want to make it. As an older electrician I do not feel threatened by the new breed of electrician as I read this forum and where would the new breed be without this new technology not sure they could make that important decision on their own without being able to ask a question on here


Overall I think your attack on time served sparks is an insult to those who are

First, I meant engineer in the wider sense, not whether you have a degree or not. You can be an engineer by being self taught, and not even attend college. My point is simply that we should take ourselves more seriously.
Experience is crucial in any job, I agree. Ok, my aplologies, sorry if I offended you or any time served electricians, it was not my intention.
You dont know much if you only booktrained, I am aware of that.
What I really meant to say was, I am offended that some in the industry think you need to have done a full apprenticeship to know anything.
Maybe you can tell me exactely what time served means.
Does it mean experienced or what ? If it means experienced, what dont they just call it experienced ?
Please enlighten me !

 

[RexT]

Hi,

I dont think that anyone would believe that you are not experienced by saying that you have only learnt through books but I guess it all breaks down to the definition of competent.

For me I would want some previous experience in doing the work. After all would you want to be flown in an airliner by a pilot who "has read all the books" and passed written exams only or would you like him to have a few hours actually flying before hand? I know this example is not electrics but it is the safety side of things that our customers will quickly remeber when things go wrong.

I think this is a straight forward subject but does have quite a few twists in it.

Rex

 

[Des 56]

Maybe you can tell me exactely what time served means.
Does it mean experienced or what ? If it means experienced, what dont they just call it experienced ?
Please enlighten me !

Time served would portray to me and others that, during the period of study in the classroom gaining the qualifications deemed suitable for an electrician,the workshop practical teaching of general installation work using a variety of industry tools and underpinning practices
This is supplemented during the apprentiship period by a hands on assistant aproach gaining the practices and knowlege that only obseving learning and understanding how a fully experienced trained electrican does the job and by learning by means of those obsevations and hands on assistance

It does seem the way of the world is to reduce anything to its least required amount
The remit of an electrican was a full understanding of all necessary abilities and understanding of the whole of the trade
This has now, by the introduction of domestic installer, sectioned a small part of what an electrican was,and understood to mean
I hear often electricans stating that they know nothing of 3 phase and stick to single phase
That is all well and good to stay within your abilities,but understanding of a wider range of the industry has slowly been lost by the concentration and acceptance of that limit
All electricans should capable of entering and performing in a wide range of works and that requires time and the learning experience that can probably only be acheved by us average mortals in a 4 or 5 year learning period followed by a number of years learning without actually realsing that you are learning,that is experience
It cannot be attained by anybody in short periods,it is not possible
That is my understanding of your question" what is time seved"

 

[Phil]

time-served

Definition:

U.K. fully trained: having completed an apprenticeship and therefore fully competent to work as a tradesperson

If you just said experienced, what could experienced mean? well it could be that you have done your time in college and had a couple of re-wires? or it could mean you have done a couple of bit`s and bat`s.

Time served is as it sounds you have served the amount of time needed to fully complete your apprenticeship,

for the one`s who are not time served there is the other route being through the tech cert side with the nvq that will back up your work based learning and experience, this being open to adults as well as younger school leavers.
hope this helps

 

[elektrisien]

Thanks for your replies. I understand now.
The issue for me was that if you decided to become an electrician later in life, when an apprenticeship is not an option anymore, because of your age or financial implications etc what then ?
How will you ever be considered time served ?
Will you always be considered second rate ?
Like many has mentioned the apprenticeship scheme is dying. The college route seems to be the only way. But not enough is done to get these people into the hands-on trade. You have to volunteer, beg, borrow and steal to get some experience. Something that should be so simple has now become nearly impossible.
Where will the electricians of the future come from ?? Maybe its wise to start importing them from Poland after all.

 

[bugsy]

Dont we already have this in the UK- Niceic is a charity, all profits go to the electrical safety
councill, - The secretary of state says that a person can only be registered with a competent persons body if he/she can pass an assesment etc, with work produced- This again is Napitt, elecsa, niceic etc- The link above once again, infers some kind of slur on those that were able to do a short course. Whether you did a short course or not, you wont get through a first assesment if you lack practical skills and technical electrical knowledge.

I have.nt read all the posts so might be repetative,

The NIC-EIC is not a charity ( it used to be ) and all the schemes are in it for the money ( dispite what they may say, )
A licence scheme properly controlled could only benefit all in our industry however I just can't see a time when DIY stores remove electrical installation materials from their shelves , general builders insist on using a licenced contactor and it all gets government backing.
Then there's the problem of licencing itself, would it based on qualifications, qualifications and experiance or would a new scheme be introduced.
The industry does need sorting, we need the recognition for the skill's we provide and the rates of pay to go with it ( Ive seen some contractors offering £ 7.00 p/h for time served sparks )
We do need licencing sooner rather than later and it needs to be properly controlled

 

[jcarlie]

I quite agree with you bugsy,i think something should be done.I am a time served spark and sweated blood during my apprenticeship,i generally think this route gives the trainee a more rounded education about the industry and invaluable experience.Having said that i think most would agree that you learn more in your first 12 months of being fully qualified and on your own as you do serving your full apprenticeship,or at least i did! I havent really worked with any apprentices recently but i did hear that they have watered down the Am2?? dont know if this is true

 

[Phil]

tis true they have watered down the am2 mate yes, also the 2357 technical side will be watered down version of the 2330. it`s sad really as when you keep watering qualifications down do they stand for as much?? I think not no one says they have to be rocket science but if you can`t do what`s on the 2330 exams should you be doing it? yes there was some tough bit`s on there but all doable with a bit of effort, mind you it`s the effort thing most of them can`t be bothered with now when they come through from school.

 

[Lec]

Phil7677, you are 100% spot on.
Just cause it's a bit difficult, we drop the standards to accomodate a less able student. WRONG!
The trouble with many people is they want it and they want it now, so time and experience get abandoned in favour of quick satisfaction.
The realy sad thing is that we stand by and let it happen.
There have been many posts trying to claim that experience is not important. Hopefully those people will live long enough to learn the truth.

I'm finding this debate increadably interesting. From the psots you can tell the younge or inexperienced, the ex-apprentices and the qucik course boys, the employed and the employers.
You can also tell the domestic electricians from the folks that do it all.
There is nothing wrong with any of you, you do what you do and good on you.

The thing I can't work out is what are so many of you so scared of.
There are so many negative comments, against some thing that is trying to improve your trade.
Are you worried that you could not meet the standards required to get a licence.
Are you worried your approval body might slap your rist if you signed the campaign.
Are you worried that you might have to spend a little bit of money, even though the return on that investment will be hugh.
It's wakey wakey time everyone.
Think of the wider picture, not just domestic work.
Licensing = less cowboys = more work for real electrians (at all levels) = happy people
No licence = No improvement = Continued decline in standards
The real facts of life are that the NICEIC, ECA or any of the other Part P approval bodies, will never be able to police the trade properly, because they will never have powers to prosecute rogue electrians.
But they will continue to take your money to ever increase their business empires.
As I have said before, they do many excellent things, but they have proven themselves unable to effectivly police the industry.
Join the campaign and have a voice in setting up the licensing scheme, or just sit back and keep thinking up reasons to accept what you get given if it makes you happy.
But don't start complaining when the license is introduced and you didn't get to have your view taken into account.
L-E-C.org.uk - The Licensed Electricians Campaign where the electrical industry can be changed for the good of all electricians.

Now if that doesn't stir things up a little, nothing will

 

[RexT]

Hi Lec,

Sounds good and hopefully something will be done to improve the situation for the guys who do follow the rules and get qualified / trained / sufficient experience etc.

I think we all tend to see things from our own perspective and I guess we all want a level playing field, if that makes any sense. I must admit I am fed up with hearing how the decent guys get cut up out of jobs etc.

Keep up the good work,

Rex

 

[elektrisien]

I dont think this campaign will accomplish anything except tp provide more hassles for the real electricians. We already have soo many governing bodies, what about the JIB and the ESC cards ? This is madness. From the posts its clear that you have little support. People want less complication not more. You will not stop cowboy electricians with this card, because they dont need one, and dont want it. The customer will always try and pay the cheapest price. They generally dont care if you have a card or not. If a mate of a mate, can do the job on the cheap they will take that.
Like I said , I think the JIB already fill the gap, if you need a card to show you are qualified. The fact that the JIB are losing members and cannot survive on their own any more, should maybe give you food for thought.

 

[elektrisien]

If part P, the Building regs, Elecsa, Niceic, your local council,the JIB, the ESC and what more cannot police the industry, what makes you think an electricians register can ???

 

[Mark_Burgess]

If part P, the Building regs, Elecsa, Niceic, your local council,the JIB, the ESC and what more cannot police the industry, what makes you think an electricians register can ???

Elektrisien you beat me to it !!!

What would give this new scheme, sorry licence, any more powers to prosecute than the current systems?

What about backed up insurance/guarantees that are currently provided by scheme providers, will that be included?

 

[RexT]

Hi Elektrisien,

I was told recently that the part P building regs was due for review and possible removal. Dont know how true that is but why this is important is that the rules seem to keep changing and for what you say we should have a working system now.

I agree that it is wrong to give the good guys hassle and I would like to see some active reports / policing of the 'cowboys' being brought to book by the powers that be.

Interesting stuff though.

Rex

 

[Graeme Harrold]

I have said this many times before, the only way for the industry to be policed effectively is to:

a. Educate the public through a series of well placed advertising highlighting the need for registered sparks to do the work

b. Campaign for the likes of insurance companies to start taking more interest in the risk (property) they are covering by asking for copies of certs on a regular basis.

c. Get a PIR included in the HIP, think this was a little nieve leaving this out when a poxy efficience survey has to be done.

d. Know this is the best way to ensure the work is done effectively and SAFELY.

Once the customers start to feel they are taking financial risks by using cowboys i.e. loosing insurance cover, or not being able to sell their home then things will improve. You will only marginalise cowboy trades as where there is money to be made the cowboy will always be there.

In order to get the bodies to actually start supporting the industry the only way is to hit them financially. e.g. get as many people to switch to ELECSA this year, then go to NAPIT next year just to demonstrate what disgruntaled power can do................

 

[Lec]

If part P, the Building regs, Elecsa, Niceic, your local council,the JIB, the ESC and what more cannot police the industry, what makes you think an electricians register can ???

If you want to know the answer, try reading my web site and visit the links that will take you to other sites that will also answer the questions.
1 - It's a License to Practice (no license, no job)
2 - It's a License to Trade (no license, not work)
The scheme will need to have the backing of legislation, so that it can be enforced effectively. It will need to be able to prosecute non license holders that carry out electrical work illegally.

Part P has legislation to give it teeth, but relies on Building Control to police it and they have no resource, so action is sporadic.
NICEIC, Elecsa etc etc have no powers to act and in the main do not act when complaints are made. They value your annual fees above anything. Don’t kill the goose that lays the golden egg.
ESC are an advisory body, they have no interest in actual enforcement
JIB is the ECA, they issue a card that states your qualifications etc, it has nothing to do with enforcement
So out of all of these, it come down to Part P and Building Control.
What about the rest of the industry?, commercial, industrial, agriculture etc.
I assume from your posts that you are a one man business focused on the domestic market ?
I’m sorry but your augments demonstrate a serious lack of knowledge of our industry and the various bodies associated with it. (Your technical knowledge is not being questioned)
Take a look at the ECA and you will see, they actually own or control many things that you probably think are independent.
The ESC is ECA & NICEIC controlled.
Did you know that the ECA help fund Unite the Union.
Someone earlier stated that the NICEIC were a charity, which is no longer true.
Can we all do some home work and get our facts right before posting inaccurate information.
They say ignorance is bliss

 

[Graeme Harrold]

Gas Safe = Licence to work

Just watch Rogue Traders..................

My ELECSA card = Licence to work on Domestic properties, the card means nothing to an uneducated public, so yet another card will not make a single difference except burden those in the trade. I did sign your petition, but having spent time in Canada, its not the card you need, its the whole culture of work illegally and you will be prosecuted (not just a slap on the wrist)

 

[Mark_Burgess]

I don't think the NIC, Elecsa, Napit etc will roll over and let this happen.

I am up for getting the cowboys out of the industry but not sure this licence will make any difference to what is currently in place.

last time I bought a TV I had to give my name and address at time of purchase, a few weeks later TV license guys wrote to me saying I did not have a license, was okay when I proved it was in the Mrs name.

The same principal should be applied for electrical goods like showers, consumer units, reels of cable etc, if you cannot show proof that you are an electrician with the currently available JIB ECS card, NIC, Elecsa ID or company ID etc, then name and address of the purchaser should be given. Building control could have an automated letter sent requesting notification me made or proof of a registered electrician shall be carrying out the work.

 

[Lec]

Mark

If you have to have a license to practice and one to trade, the public will not have a need to buy the goods and the market will slowly die.
It will take time, but any head on move to outlaw the sale of electrical goods to the public will immediately blow this out of the water.
It can be done if we take the correct approach.
If we go at it like a bull in a china shop, then yes it will fail.
We have to be smart about this!
The bodies with any real power are the ECA and NICEIC.
If they take time to think about this, they will still have a huge role to play in the industry, so it actually won’t cause them to much pain.
Anyway, since when should the trade worry what they think, are they not there to represent us, not make decisions for us.

 

[Lec]

Gas Safe = Licence to work

Just watch Rogue Traders..................

My ELECSA card = Licence to work on Domestic properties, the card means nothing to an uneducated public, so yet another card will not make a single difference except burden those in the trade. I did sign your petition, but having spent time in Canada, its not the card you need, its the whole culture of work illegally and you will be prosecuted (not just a slap on the wrist)

Thanks for your support Graeme, You are correct, the license scheme must have the powers to act in an effective way. It will need to be publicised so that the general public know that it is the only card that must be shown. The current confusion is due to the many different approval bodies and badges, so that is why they need to go and be replaced by one.
The culture will change if prosecutions take place.

 

[aptsys]

If you have to have a license to practice and one to trade, the public will not have a need to buy the goods and the market will slowly die.

Are you saying "DIY" work by homeowners would no longer be allowed by this scheme?

 

[Lec]

I would think the rules as per Part P would apply for domestic work, but would actualy be enforced.
As regard being able to buy products that would enable a DIYer to infringe the rules, well you can work that one out for yourself.
Go to L-E-C.org.uk - The Licensed Electricians Campaign, read it and read the links to other non-uk licensing scheme sites, it's all there.

 

[aptsys]

As regard being able to buy products that would enable a DIYer to infringe the rules, well you can work that one out for yourself.

Well there's no way you'd be able to stop unregistered people buying electrical accessories.

 

[jcarlie]

I agree with the opinion that part p is failing miserably.The problem i think is that the industry is not policed at all.Generally members of the public know that to work on gas you have to be Corgi registered or gas safe as it is now,the majority also know what the consequences are if someone works on your gas that isnt registered.Here is where part p fails,the majority dont have a clue that yor property should be tested every 10 years or every time there is a change in occupancy,on this point it should be made compulsary that properties are tested and inspected before you can even put it on the market. They dont have a clue that every job that is carried out,no matter how trivial,needs testing and certifying.The general public need educating and some form of statutory legislation covering the industry needs putting in place,if that means a licence then im all for it,if that means a total re-hash of part p then im all for that as well because for one thing,part p isnt working like it is supposed to do.The DIY horrors i have seen in the past is unbelievable and not just in domestic properties but commercial as well.The literature needs to change from it being acceptable for a "competent" person to work on electricity to "Qualified,registered Electrician" is the only person allowed to carry out any electrical work whatsoever.Just my opinion.When properties are tested why not supply a drawing thats is signed and dated,the next time it is inspected and tested anything that has been installed that is not on the original drawing will need certificates to show they was installed by a Registered electrician,you would only need to make the drawing out once,or even provide a drawing everytime a propert is rewired.I know that commercial and industrial have these drawings usually but domestic properties dont and that is where the biggest problems with cowboys lie.

 

[elektrisien]

If you want to know the answer, try reading my web site and visit the links that will take you to other sites that will also answer the questions.
1 - It's a License to Practice (no license, no job)
2 - It's a License to Trade (no license, not work)
The scheme will need to have the backing of legislation, so that it can be enforced effectively. It will need to be able to prosecute non license holders that carry out electrical work illegally.

Part P has legislation to give it teeth, but relies on Building Control to police it and they have no resource, so action is sporadic.
NICEIC, Elecsa etc etc have no powers to act and in the main do not act when complaints are made. They value your annual fees above anything. Don’t kill the goose that lays the golden egg.
ESC are an advisory body, they have no interest in actual enforcement
JIB is the ECA, they issue a card that states your qualifications etc, it has nothing to do with enforcement
So out of all of these, it come down to Part P and Building Control.
What about the rest of the industry?, commercial, industrial, agriculture etc.
I assume from your posts that you are a one man business focused on the domestic market ?
I’m sorry but your augments demonstrate a serious lack of knowledge of our industry and the various bodies associated with it. (Your technical knowledge is not being questioned)
Take a look at the ECA and you will see, they actually own or control many things that you probably think are independent.
The ESC is ECA & NICEIC controlled.
Did you know that the ECA help fund Unite the Union.
Someone earlier stated that the NICEIC were a charity, which is no longer true.
Can we all do some home work and get our facts right before posting inaccurate information.
They say ignorance is bliss

Thanks for your extensive reply, I appreciate it.
But like the other posts say, for it to work, you will have to set up the infrastructure to police it.
Secondly, and probably the most diffecult , you will have to educate the public.
Unfortunetly, I am not a qulified electrician with my own business, if only.
But I am an adult trainee, who did evening classes for 3 years at a normal college. I know how diffecult it is, even now to get in the industry, who is going to give me an opportunity for instance to do my NVQ3 ?
If you create even more barriers to entry, how are guys like me going to get in ??
Tell me how your register will benefit me, and I will support you.

 

[Lec]

Elektrisian, you asked, so here we go.
Both of your first points are key parts of introducing a licensing scheme and would be part of the process of setting the scheme up. It would not work without them.
Re your personal situation.
I have employed and paid for the training of an adult trainee, with no funding from JTL or any other training organisation, so I am familiar with your plight.
There was some funding available from JTL for employers wanting to train adults, I don’t know if it is still available or if you would qualify. I suggest you contact the local JTL guy through your local JTL approved training centre. You could also try Summit Skills. If you get stuck, I will try to help.
There are always employers that are willing to employ & train capable people, if they show practical ability, enthusiasm and technical understanding of the trade. Employers want funding to help them train adults, you have a number of advantages over school leavers, one being maturity and a understanding of what the real world is about.
How would the licence help people like you?
It would get rid of the cowboys across all sectors, Domestic, Industrial, Commercials etc. This would increase demand for the real electricians as they would be the only ones trading under a license. This would increase the need for training of electricians to fill the skills gap and would inevitably lead to the availability of funding to train adults as well as school leavers. Greater demand for qualified electricians means greater opportunity of finding employment for people like you that need experience for the NVQ. By the way NVQs are being replaced with QCFs, but that’s another storey. Employers would also be able to charge fair rates, as there would be less people selling themselves for stupid prices, this would also enable employers to pay towards training their electricians of the future.
Yes there are and always will be employers that abuse trainees and use them as cheap labour, but you don’t have to work for them. If people refuse to work for the sharks, they will eventually go out of business or change their ways.
Stop being negative, it grinds you down and people pick up on it. Be positive about yourself and the future of the trade and opportunities will come along. It’s for you to recognise them and grab them. Why not start by helping us change the trade for the good. www.l-e-c.org.uk

 

[aptsys]

Sounds very idealistic and not very realistic to me. If people who want to pay cheap for electrical work can't get it done cheap, they're more likely to either leave it, get a mate to do it or have a go themselves.

 

[Lec]

If the world was full of people with that attitude, women would not be able to vote, kids would still be working in coal mines, apartheid would still exist in South Africa, we would never have gone into space, we would still think the world was flat, the list goes on and on.

 

[aptsys]

Women can vote???

 

[Mark_Burgess]

Hi Lec,

A few questions regards time scale etc, if you dont mind.

What time scales etc do you have in mind to try and get the next step of the ball rolling?

Is there a minimum qty of electricians you want to get their votes registered first?

Where else have you publicised this campaign?

You mentioned in one of your posts there would still be a role to play for the current scheme providers, when do you propose to contact them?

Thanks
Mark

 

[Lec]

Are you a supporter?
I think I would rather keep the scheme providers guessing at present, it's early days.
If you are a doubter take a look at this site, it will open your eyes.
www.partpsurvival.co.uk

 

[not clever]

Well I think you'd be better off setting up a campaign to get the powers that be to listen to electricians, & get them to start policing part P & to start dishing out some meaningful penalties to cowboys & home owners who flout the whole system.
Maybe even get the insurance companies on board with regard to home insurance & electrical work. Something along the lines of domestic pir every 5 years make it a law, any electrical work requires notifying & certificating so leaving a papertrail to the contractor who has undertaken the work. Put the electrical system back into the HIP's with requests for any electrical certificates to be given to solicitors during house sales.
Any of these will do more to advertise part P & use a registered sparks as opposed to a cowboy, more than the lame & half hearted advetising stratergy used by the government & scheme operators to date.

Licencing electrician will just be another stick to beat us with for more money.

 

[Lec]

Please don't be so short sighted.
Read the earlier posts and my web site.
It won't be a stick, it will help you. I've explained this so many times.
It won't cost you more money becasue you won't need to pay for what you get now and it will be run on a not for profit basis, so it won't be making profits from you.
It will address all the things you mentioned.
I think I need a FAQ page on the web site as I seem to be repeating myself almost on a daily basis.
Thank you for your contribution anyway

 

[Graeme Harrold]

Have you considered lobying the insurance borkers associations:

Association of British Insurers - ABI Home Page

British Insurance Brokers Association :: BIBA ::

After all they have a vested interest in ensuring the properties they under-write are as "low risk" as possible

 

[Jason Smith]

Hi lec,
Can you put your cards on the table please and disclose your interests in such a scheme. Do you see yourself as running such a scheme and what salary would you be requiring before all the profits go to charity ?

 

[JABellis]

Who would support the introduction of a Licence scheme for electricans, as used in Australia, Canada, New Zealand etc etc.

Well, you can.

I have heard so many electrcians say "what we need is a licensing scheme like in Australia, that would solve the problem..... But it will never happen"

Take a look at L-E-C.org.uk - The Licensed Electricians Campaign

If the vast majority of electricians supported this campaign, the government wiould have to listen and act.

Comments please.

I spoke to a plumber the other day who has just been on acourse for his Part"P" which entitles him to wire lighting type B+C and power to type"C",4 Days,and if he wanted to be able to wire a house he needed to pay extra and do an extra day???????????????
How quick is that!!!!!!!!!!!!
Joe Bellis

 

[Mark_Burgess]

Are you a supporter?
I think I would rather keep the scheme providers guessing at present, it's early days.
If you are a doubter take a look at this site, it will open your eyes.
www.partpsurvival.co.uk

I don't object to your license, neither do I support something that seems as if it's still wishful thinking.

All I and many others probably want to know, is your next steps and time scales.

You said the scheme providers will still have a roll to play, get them involved, speed things up and get it in place.

I am sure if you show clear actions and time scales you would get more backing?

 

[Lec]

Hi lec,
Can you put your cards on the table please and disclose your interests in such a scheme. Do you see yourself as running such a scheme and what salary would you be requiring before all the profits go to charity ?

Hi Jason,
First of all I am more than happy to put my cards on the table. Currently I have no desire to run this organisation, I have very little spare time running my own company and there are probably much more suitable people, so long as they come from within the industry. Having said this I am committed to this and will contribute as much as I can in any way I can. I am doing this not for my gain, but becasue I pasionatly believe it is needed and that electrcians should be respected as the professionals we are.

Secondly, the salary would be appropriate for the position, not excessive and all accounts would be transparent, so anyone could see where the money is spent. You obviously don't understand how a not for profit organisation works, there are no profits, the revenue collected is set at a level that allows the organisation to break even.

Hope that answers your questions.
One more for the FAQ page I guess.

 

[Lec]

I don't object to your license, neither do I support something that seems as if it's still wishful thinking.

All I and many others probably want to know, is your next steps and time scales.

You said the scheme providers will still have a roll to play, get them involved, speed things up and get it in place.

I am sure if you show clear actions and time scales you would get more backing?

Mark, currently we need to get as many supporters as possible, so that we can show there is grass roots support from the industry, therefore time scales will somewhat depend on speed of support and my biggest issue at present is spreading the news, letting every electrician in the UK know that the campaign exists. I have not received or requested any financial assistance at all, so it's all coming out of my pocket, so don't expect to see any expensive marketing yet.

The scheme providers are not willing to support the campaign, they want me to stop. Currently the NICEIC and ECA are fighting each other over their share of the market, they both want their own scheme to be "the only scheme" and will never support a "not for profit" organisation that threatens their profits and growth plans. Do not think for one minute that they have the trade’s interest at heart. They have been given the opportunity before to work together for a licensing scheme and they refused, insisting theirs was the best and they should be the only one.

The concept of the existing bodies working together and then getting government approval is more of a pipe dream than you may think my campaign is.

The backing I receive will somewhat dictate the actions and time scales. I want this as soon as possible and if you are an electrician, you should to.

 

[Jason Smith]

obviously you have assumed I do not know how a not for profit organisation works. Sorry but you shouldnt assume as its dangerous. So you are trying to tell everbody on here then that a not for profit organisation does not pay any salaries ?

You state on your website that a certain persons services were dispensed with from the NICEIC. I do not wish to make comment. However, it has been known that persons who have a beef with their company, whatever and whoever,have often tried to set up in competition as revenge. Could this be you ?.Have you failed assesments from any of our current scheme providers?
Any organisation that does not pay salaries Lec is eventually doomed to failure, such an important thing as a regulation body cannot be left to chance can it ?
I have my suspicions lec, and I have merly asked for you to put your cards onthe table. I will put my cards on the table, I doubt your motives.
This is submitted to the forum with absolute respect to lec, and is no more than a politician having to declare interest etc.I feel these questions need to be asked.

 

[mogga]

I tend to agree with "not for profit" being unattainable but on the other hand how does GASSAFE work It is recognised in court for prossecutions im sure if u asked a judge sherrif or magistrate what the elctrical sheme equivelant to Gas Safe was they wouldnt be able to give a definative answer as there are way to many and adding another one to the mob isnt going to sort it out this requires sorting out at a government level and a self,government funded NICEIC type where training ,regulation and advice are available from one source across the board then the public /main contractors would also have one complaint route

 

[Lec]

obviously you have assumed I do not know how a not for profit organisation works. Sorry but you shouldnt assume as its dangerous. So you are trying to tell everbody on here then that a not for profit organisation does not pay any salaries ?

You state on your website that a certain persons services were dispensed with from the NICEIC. I do not wish to make comment. However, it has been known that persons who have a beef with their company, whatever and whoever,have often tried to set up in competition as revenge. Could this be you ?.Have you failed assesments from any of our current scheme providers?
Any organisation that does not pay salaries Lec is eventually doomed to failure, such an important thing as a regulation body cannot be left to chance can it ?
I have my suspicions lec, and I have merly asked for you to put your cards onthe table. I will put my cards on the table, I doubt your motives.
This is submitted to the forum with absolute respect to lec, and is no more than a politician having to declare interest etc.I feel these questions need to be asked.

Jason, you seem to have a desire to make this personal. How sad.
Read what I said, the salary for the person or persons running the scheme would be appropriate for the position and I do not expect that to be me.
If you knew how they work why ask such a question.

My web site is www.l-e-c.org.uk, it does not name the NICEIC anywhere and does not talk about a person that was dispensed with. Get your web sites sorted before making accusations.

I put my cards on the table, now it should be your turn.
Who are you, why are you trying to discrediting my campaign?
You’re wasting your time buddy, I have nothing to hide! I’m just an electrician trying to make life better for all electricians. if the majority want it, that’s great. If I fail, then at least I had the guts to try instead of just complaining.
If you want to make things personal, go find someone that might drop to your level.
I thought this forum was about debate and opinions, not personal attacks.
Perhaps I should ask you which approval body you have links with.
Please don't answer my questions, it's not important.

 

[Lec]

I tend to agree with "not for profit" being unattainable but on the other hand how does GASSAFE work It is recognised in court for prossecutions im sure if u asked a judge sherrif or magistrate what the elctrical sheme equivelant to Gas Safe was they wouldnt be able to give a definative answer as there are way to many and adding another one to the mob isnt going to sort it out this requires sorting out at a government level and a self,government funded NICEIC type where training ,regulation and advice are available from one source across the board then the public /main contractors would also have one complaint route

Mogga, The John Lewis Partnership, Western Provident Association are just two examples of very successfull Not For Profit companies. My suggestion for NFP is so that we would know what our license fee is being spent on and that it is being spent wisely. Giving maximum value for money and not putting profits in some ones pockets at our expense.
My campaign is not for just another "one to the mob" it is for having just one scheme, no more mob. It would possibly be under government control, but that may or may not be popular. It will need the powers to take real action, effective action when required.
I envisage the licensing scheme having purely a policing role.
Training, advice, new standards etc would still come from organisations like the ECA, NICEIC, ESC etc.
some of these guys do some of this stuff extereemly well, the problem is that there are to many "approvals bodies" and badges out there, which confuse the market. sadley none of them get any where near to policing the industry effectivly.
One licensing system, one badge, one set of rules, hopefully clarity.

 

[acat]

Not only do the judges not have a clue. The other night the local MP decided to disturb my dinner. So I listened and when he shut up I said what does part P mean to you. A blank stare then a mumble something to do with privatisation. This was despite walking past my sign written van with "part P qualfied" on it


I let rip 35 minutes later I educated MP and thats what we should all do complaining on here is pointless apart from stress relief. Get hold of your MPs and give them hell until they give up and do something. One of the questions I asked him was how many people had died or been injured for not having a TV Licence. He didnt answer so I asked how come I have to prove who I am am to buy a TV but I can walk into any of our favourite DIY stores and buy a CU with no questions asked again silence.



Chris

 

[Mark_Burgess]

Bang on Acat, May 6th when I go to vote and they are all there grinning, I shall ask them one by one, take their names and ask why nothing is being done to police it. Just put a reminder on my phone!!!!

 

[Jason Smith]

Jason, you seem to have a desire to make this personal. How sad.
Read what I said, the salary for the person or persons running the scheme would be appropriate for the position and I do not expect that to be me.
If you knew how they work why ask such a question.

My web site is www.l-e-c.org.uk, it does not name the NICEIC anywhere and does not talk about a person that was dispensed with. Get your web sites sorted before making accusations.

I put my cards on the table, now it should be your turn.
Who are you, why are you trying to discrediting my campaign?
You’re wasting your time buddy, I have nothing to hide! I’m just an electrician trying to make life better for all electricians. if the majority want it, that’s great. If I fail, then at least I had the guts to try instead of just complaining.
If you want to make things personal, go find someone that might drop to your level.
I thought this forum was about debate and opinions, not personal attacks.
Perhaps I should ask you which approval body you have links with.
Please don't answer my questions, it's not important.

I would suggest you review the links you give in support of your arguement. The above information came straight from the link YOU gave to support your campaign. You will find that anyone who supports this huge step will need these basic questions answering. You perhaps shouldnt of used that link. This is a democracy, and unfortuneately the only insults I can see have come from you. If I am to support you, then unfortuneately I wanna know who you are. YOU raised those questions by using the link.

 

[Tester Steve]

Been watching this thread for a while now, so time I said my bit! All my own personal thoughts!

Much has been mentioned about a system along the lines of Corgi/Gassafe. This is on the basis that everyone(?) knowns that to work on gas you need to be registered. But unregistered people are still working on gas, as a quick Google will show, here, here and here are some examples. It seems to me that they only got 'caught' because something went wrong and another person was called in and 'grassed' them up. There must be a lot of work out there done by unregistered fitters. How do Corgi/Gassafe police the work of gas fitters? How do they enforce it? How do they know that Mrs. Smith has had a new boiler fitted? They don't, it is only (sadly) when something goes wrong that they get found out.

It is the same with electrical work. How does the LABC know that Mr. Brown has had his house rewired or a new CU fitted? They will know IF the sparks was registered and notified via his scheme provider. If the sparks wasn't registered, then only he and Mr. Smith would know. So how do the LABC find out? Basically, like gas, unless something goes wrong, they don't.

So how do Corgi/Gassafe or the new electrical licence scheme going to find all this unregistered work? Employ a vast number of people to go around the country, knocking on every door asking if any gas/electrical work has been done? And ask to see the certificates if they say yes? What if they say no, are they going to go in and check? And who is going to pay for this vast army? The tax payer? The scheme provider(s)? How about those claiming job seekers allowance??

So, how would a licence scheme for electricians, run on the lines of Gassafe, help improve the safety of those who have had electrical work done? Who is going to police it? How will it be enforced? Lastly, who will pay for it? I know that the current scheme providers do not promote Part P as they should, but I believe that this is one area that is proposed to be improved.

All of the big sheds sell electrical stuff. CU's, wire, sockets etc. They also sell gas boilers, gas fittings, gas hoses etc. It is NOT illegal to sell any of this stuff. It is NOT illegal to buy, or to own, any of this stuff. It becomes illegal when (some of) it is installed, and that's when the fun starts!!

As has been said before, the only people who can actually change things are the insurance companies. If they insisted that, if you want buildings insurance, you will need valid gas and electrical certificates, then perhaps it might change things.

So, a licencing scheme for electricians? Perhaps. But, like Gassafe, how is it going to be policed and enforced? Who will pay?? Gassafe cost £175 per company per year (+vat) and £75 for each aditional engineer. How much is your scheme provider charging? Would one, single organisation, like Gassafe, reduce costs for the electrician? Would this lower cost encourage more people to register? There will always be cowboys, regardless of the law or licencing. When cost is a factor, most go for the cheapest option!

Just my thoughts!

Steve.

 

[acat]

Very valid points Steve but we cant do nothing as I said to that MP that came knocking on my door how come I have to prove who I am for a TV but not a consumer unit. Nobody stopped buying TVs when that came in so why dont we have a similar scheme for Consumer Units central unit informed who in turn notifies the local building control.

It wont be 100% but it will do what we all want and that is raise public awareness that along with your comments about insurance companies and I think we have cracked it.

A suggestion to one and all when we know who is going to be running this country for the next 5 years we all send one letter to our MP and perhaps insurance companies asking their views. Keep a copy of the letters and if anything is reported in the newspapers contact the newspaper and give them a copy of letter to MP stating thats how long he/she knew and did nothing.

In every instance Name and Shame is the Game.


Chris