Educating people about poor practices?can it be done?

[vaughant]

Getting thoroughly fed up with the general state of where I work.
Ok,it's an old place and of course wirings changed a lot over the years but in our game I'd say good drawings etc are even more important than a neatly wired panel and that's where this place massively falls down.
Everywhere I go I'm met with the same answer "oh it's in so and so's room" or "we just know where it is".
That's great lads,but not much use to me at 3am on a Sunday night!!!
I got caught out the other week and a m/c left down cos a plc was kept in a store cupboard,I mean how am I meant to know that?
Yesterday was the final straw,an isolators pretty much welded itself to the stantion,looks like its been hit by a forktruck.
There's 6 red cables that go in,down to a j/b,up to a near enough brand new dol starter,not one of them with a number on it,all tie wrapped together too look "neat" but of course should there be a problem you'll have to cut all of them off!!!
I doubt I'm in the minority here but I was always trained that you labelled each core end to end,no matter how insignificant and at least made a diagram.
I had a good rant on the shiftlog about it and some guy piped up "it's been like that for 40 years and I'd have done it the same".
I told him that doesn't make it right and he just made his usual irritating smirk.
Problem is we've got apprentices and their adopting the same practices,making it look pretty but not marking anything up,one cheeky one even called me rough the other day cos I hadn't used bootlace ferrules,I explained that I'm not a fan and I prefer to solder and heatshrink and it was met with raised eyebrows.

Sorry for the moaning but I'm just wondering if anyone's had any experience in this before,it's gonna be a mammoth task but the department really needs sorting as I'm gonna end up exploding on someone soon!!!!

 

[IQ Electrical]

Getting thoroughly fed up with the general state of where I work.
Ok,it's an old place and of course wirings changed a lot over the years but in our game I'd say good drawings etc are even more important than a neatly wired panel and that's where this place massively falls down.
Everywhere I go I'm met with the same answer "oh it's in so and so's room" or "we just know where it is".
That's great lads,but not much use to me at 3am on a Sunday night!!!
I got caught out the other week and a m/c left down cos a plc was kept in a store cupboard,I mean how am I meant to know that?
Yesterday was the final straw,an isolators pretty much welded itself to the stantion,looks like its been hit by a forktruck.
There's 6 red cables that go in,down to a j/b,up to a near enough brand new dol starter,not one of them with a number on it,all tie wrapped together too look "neat" but of course should there be a problem you'll have to cut all of them off!!!
I doubt I'm in the minority here but I was always trained that you labelled each core end to end,no matter how insignificant and at least made a diagram.
I had a good rant on the shiftlog about it and some guy piped up "it's been like that for 40 years and I'd have done it the same".
I told him that doesn't make it right and he just made his usual irritating smirk.
Problem is we've got apprentices and their adopting the same practices,making it look pretty but not marking anything up,one cheeky one even called me rough the other day cos I hadn't used bootlace ferrules,I explained that I'm not a fan and I prefer to solder and heatshrink and it was met with raised eyebrows.

Sorry for the moaning but I'm just wondering if anyone's had any experience in this before,it's gonna be a mammoth task but the department really needs sorting as I'm gonna end up exploding on someone soon!!!!

You're describing many factory installations up and down the country.

The bottom line is that until there's an incident or an HSE inspection, nothing will be done.

I went to price some machine installations only last week at a local factory and couldn't believe what I saw, low-level distribution boards without doors, BS3036 fuse carriers missing, leaving live parts and asbestos flashguards exposed to all!

The installation was well in excess of 40 years old and had never been inspected/tested, I asked why and was told "it's hard enough to pay the wage bill".

I made reference to the dangerous conditions as part of our quotation and received an email back saying that we'd lost the job because we proposed using 4-core SWA and their factory electrician "liked to use 5-core so that there is an earth".

Unbelievable and so frustrating!

 

[malcoa]

the only thing you can do is put some kind of monetry value to the additional downtime due to things not being identified and the lack of energy maps and submit it to management, it sounds like the traditional style of british management there though and they probably wont care because they still wont see long term benefits.
You could also be increasing your own workload by doing this but make sure your own work is to the standard youd like so you cant be blamed for the accident waiting to happen.

 

[silva.foxx]

I'm finding at the mo, where I work (read: turn up to) that control panels are being upgraded without schematics. This was questioned to the response that there is no time to do schematics. New panels being put in with no schematics. It's like struggling to find a place, then getting the map out once you've arrived.

The first thing I do on an upgrade is trace the wiring and do a shematic of what I have then modify to suit the upgrade BEFORE wiring, then create the final "as wired now" schematic!

I see differing standards too. Ususlly Quick-Fix additions that end up permanent. Few care as long as its working. That's the way it seems to be this day.

 

[vaughant]

Everyone of those responses is spot on.
In their defence they are safety concious,I will give them that but as for worker friendly not a chance.
I just finished the job now,eventually found the feeder d/b,it was where I thought it was but the fuse holders have all been put in upside down therefore the wirings all arse backwards!!!
Oh,and when it started,it sucked not blew,again due to not marking the incoming phase rotation.
Such joy.
The same spark who wired it just got pulled on another shoddy job,3x50w spotlights,12v therefore approx a 12.5A breaker and he's put a 6A one in and wonders why it's continually nuisance tripping.
Oh dear.

 

[Engineer54]

I'm finding at the mo, where I work (read: turn up to) that control panels are being upgraded without schematics. This was questioned to the response that there is no time to do schematics. New panels being put in with no schematics. It's like struggling to find a place, then getting the map out once you've arrived.

The first thing I do on an upgrade is trace the wiring and do a shematic of what I have then modify to suit the upgrade BEFORE wiring, then create the final "as wired now" schematic!

I see differing standards too. Ususlly Quick-Fix additions that end up permanent. Few care as long as its working. That's the way it seems to be this day.

What you describe here is how i remember industry. I'd hate to think what it's like now, if what you and others here are saying, is anywhere near the norm!!

Without panel schematics, in this modern world you are lost before you begin... Any changes we made to control panels were always sent upstairs for appraisal and if approved official new overall schematics drawing replaced the hand drawn job left in the panel. All i can say, is that sooner or later they are going to have an almighty down time if any of these panels you talk about are anything like the size we had. some being full height and over 9 to 10 metres long, chock a block with hundreds of relay's/ latching relays/ protection modules/ PLCs etc, etc, etc... Our drawings for that panel were on an O sized clamped roll...lol!

 

[netblindpaul]

Thing is there is also statute law you can use to back this up, so if there is an incident and no docs exist, employer is in trouble and those who did the mods without documenting them are in trouble too.
IF anyone is bothered to push the point and really knows the law.

 

[silva.foxx]

Hi Paul... can you link me to a specific "law" as I know it'll be on the tip of your tongue. I have somewhere to start delving before spouting.

I can list at least four in-house projects without documentation! I've even offered to CAD any scribble-schematics that can be mustered, to aid them!

Thanks.

 

[netblindpaul]

CDM, PUWER98, MHSWR, EAWR89, will these do as a start?...

 

[vaughant]

Well,a SLIGHT breakthrough.
At the moment the only time jobs are recorded anywhere accessible is when were night shift and only by the shift craftsmen like myself.
This is frustrating cos if there's a major issue or even a job that you have to leave there's never any feedback as to what was done to repair it.
I was summoned to the head of the electrical department upon arrival Thursday night for a different reason but the manager had a chat and asked me how things were going,bear in mind ive only been here since march.
I explained my frustrations and concerns and he said that their about to introduce a dayshift log that every spark has to fill in for breakdowns etc,also if they've repaired a job then they need to communicate what they've done etc.
I mentioned my concerns at the lack of proper apprentice training and he agreed whole heartedly so I'm going to suggest to him when I get back fro
my long weekend that perhaps I make up a little test just to see how much/little they know.
Also,it's quite quiet there right now and I've identified a machine that would be good to put a few faults on and let them find and fix them.
Baby steps,but going the right way at last.

 

[IQ Electrical]

Well,a SLIGHT breakthrough.
At the moment the only time jobs are recorded anywhere accessible is when were night shift and only by the shift craftsmen like myself.
This is frustrating cos if there's a major issue or even a job that you have to leave there's never any feedback as to what was done to repair it.
I was summoned to the head of the electrical department upon arrival Thursday night for a different reason but the manager had a chat and asked me how things were going,bear in mind ive only been here since march.
I explained my frustrations and concerns and he said that their about to introduce a dayshift log that every spark has to fill in for breakdowns etc,also if they've repaired a job then they need to communicate what they've done etc.
I mentioned my concerns at the lack of proper apprentice training and he agreed whole heartedly so I'm going to suggest to him when I get back fro
my long weekend that perhaps I make up a little test just to see how much/little they know.
Also,it's quite quiet there right now and I've identified a machine that would be good to put a few faults on and let them find and fix them.
Baby steps,but going the right way at last.

Some excellent ideas, this is how good procedure starts, let's hope everyone sticks to it!

 

[silva.foxx]

I mentioned my concerns at the lack of proper apprentice training and he agreed whole heartedly so I'm going to suggest to him when I get back from my long weekend that perhaps I make up a little test just to see how much/little they know.

I have a test you could possibly use, it may be a little advanced for a trainee though. I don't want to make it a world wide web test so PM me and I'll pass you a copy.

Also,it's quite quiet there right now and I've identified a machine that would be good to put a few faults on and let them find and fix them.
Baby steps,but going the right way at last.

This whole unstructured, improper apprentice training is something I'm working on to correct at the minute. I've bitten off quite a chunk to be fitting in with shiftwork, family time and hobbies but I'm making strides and positive waves. I'm doing a lot of writing, photographing and printing. Some of the stuff I'm picking up is like re-apprenticing myself. As you quoted above, using a machine you have on-site is a good step. What I'm doing is some theory and bench work, then relating that to on-site machinery before having a test or task on it. All bench work is incorporating fault scenarios, so rather than see how a DOL works, the App. will find out why is doesn't work, etc...

 

[vaughant]

Thanks lads.
To be fair silva,their practical knowledge and workmanship is pretty good,but I pointed out a symbol for a relay coil on a diagram last month and not even one of them knew what it was,which is worrying.
There's no real testing for them there,by that I mean examinations.
Ok,looking back I had a great apprenticeship but we were tested all the time I was there,usually a weeks theory then a weeks phase tests,and they put some right ******* faults on,return or 0v wires put into a contactor with just the insulation on,no copper but visually looked ok,wires swapped round in terminal strips,coils removed from inside relays,all manner of stuff really.
A pm of the test would be great though.