EICR On small industrial unit

[uksparks]

Hi,

A friend of mine owns a small unit, i have the papers from when it was last tested 10 years ago and also 15 years ago, but a lot of its been pulled out since then.

Ill be honest, I do not generally do periodics on this type of building and would like a bit of guidance.

I know how to test the circuits etc, its not that, thats the issue, its more with the BS number and what other peoples thoughts are for the setup where the board is really.

Take a look at the photos and see what you think, its a courier business and they wash vans out the front and take extensions out, nothing is RCD protected, generally the condition looks ok having walked round it yesterday.

 

[Andy78]

BS3036 for all the fuse wire carriers
BS5419 for the main switch in the single phase board

The DB could ideally not do to be half in and out the ceiling but you have proved it is accessible. C3 for ease of access and working space for DB possibly.

I would C2 the lack of RCD on sockets used outside with water jets. A simple RCD socket installed for this use is an easy remedy.

I'm now going to sit back and wait for the inevitable argument about the dangers of asbestos flash pads... on which subject I have no opinion to offer ... lol ..

 

[uksparks]

Thanks Andy, I agree with your comments, yes the board and floor in the way has been there dined it was built. I said it would be nice to bung a nice shiny new board in but they didn't want it.

the rcd issue, I said I could swap them for protected ones.

the asbestos, I guess it's a C3.

 

[Andy78]

Thanks Andy, I agree with your comments, yes the board and floor in the way has been there dined it was built. I said it would be nice to bung a nice shiny new board in but they didn't want it.

the rcd issue, I said I could swap them for protected ones.

the asbestos, I guess it's a C3.

It's a nothing on your report.... You are reporting on the electrical safety of the installation and it's suitability for continued use. Any deterioration or defects can be brought into your report, but not the suitability of materials that have no mention in BS7671. You have to justify any code with a relevant regulation.

I do not know enough about asbestos to advise you any better than this..... The white asbestos flash pads in the main DB are, as I understand it, of a low risk but still "potentially" harmful.
You could put a note on your report to the effect that the client may want to carry out their own asbestos report .... merely as an arse covering operation for yourself mind you.

 

[kjgreen3]

Any 3 phase equipment fed off that Bill Board? If so each phase is individually fused which is a no-no. Will need changing so the phases on that circuit are linked i.e. 3-pole mcb.

 

[gnselectricals]

Any 3 phase equipment fed off that Bill Board? If so each phase is individually fused which is a no-no. Will need changing so the phases on that circuit are linked i.e. 3-pole mcb.

Which reg does that have to comply with then as I fitted a 3 phase ISO yesterday fitted with bs88 fuses which won't disconnect if one phase is lost.
Cheers

 

[ipf]

Any 3 phase equipment fed off that Bill Board? If so each phase is individually fused which is a no-no. Will need changing so the phases on that circuit are linked i.e. 3-pole mcb.

Where the heck do you get that one from?.........baffles me, at times.

 

[davesparks]

Any 3 phase equipment fed off that Bill Board? If so each phase is individually fused which is a no-no. Will need changing so the phases on that circuit are linked i.e. 3-pole mcb.

I call bovine excrement! Unless of course you can quote a law or regulation to support that theory.

 

[dingledong]

So a 3 phase appliance protected by 3 individual breakers , not a joined breaker is ok ? ? Or have I read it wrong

 

[infinity]

An incoming supply will have a fuse for each phase!

 

[dingledong]

But at the fuse board they are joined so if one trips it turns the whole machine of

 

[dingledong]

I know I am missing something sorry goodnight

 

[ipf]

But at the fuse board they are joined so if one trips it turns the whole machine of

I think I'm with Tony after that....I can see his point.

 

[kjgreen3]

Ok I always thought machinery, especially rotating (motors etc) should drop all three phases if one phase drops out (unless the machinery itself has this type of protection, eg. undervoltage trip).

This is to prevent harm to operators but mainly to protect the equipment itself. If this is so wrong how come 3-pole mcb's are interlinked?

Teach me people

 

[alanl]

You havent done much industrial work, so clearly havent seen that very many installs still have fuses for fault and overload protection.
Fuses are quite good at not tripping with short term overloads, so are still specified for some equipment where a circuit breaker may trip earlier, and / or cannot achieve the required Zs figures.

It isnt wrong to have 3 phase CB's interlinked, it's a good thing for isolation, but if they are not interlinked, at most it is only a C3 on an EICR.
Clearly some equipment calls for all phases to be isolated at the same time, so manufacturers rules should be followed too.

 

[davesparks]

Ok I always thought machinery, especially rotating (motors etc) should drop all three phases if one phase drops out (unless the machinery itself has this type of protection, eg. undervoltage trip).

This is to prevent harm to operators but mainly to protect the equipment itself. If this is so wrong how come 3-pole mcb's are interlinked?

Teach me people

The motor overload relay in the starter will handle that, the supply to the starter will be quite happy on fuses.

 

[Knobhead]

Any 3 phase equipment fed off that Bill Board? If so each phase is individually fused which is a no-no. Will need changing so the phases on that circuit are linked i.e. 3-pole mcb.

I’ll say it if no one else will, you’re talking complete and utter bolloX!!!!

 

[kjgreen3]

I’ll say it if no one else will, you’re talking complete and utter bolloX!!!!

Every day is a school day Tony

 

[ipf]

Every day is a school day Tony

Not trying to be condescending or anything but who has put such rubbish into your head ?

 

[kjgreen3]

Well I did my time years ago at Kier Sheffield, mainly domestic (decent homes scheme house bashing), but also worked on fire alarms, door entry systems etc. We did some small to medium commercial stuff which is my experience of 3 phase.

Generally it was new build so no existing older installs seen. Judging by my MISTAKEN initial post in this thread you can see I haven't had any experience with Industrial installs. Anyway a few of my mentors on commercial jobs ('experienced' time served sparks) would always suggest 3 pole mcb's for safer isolation on 3 phase systems. Their words repeated by me. Never seen a switch fuse feed a final circuit directly, only to feed sub boards generally from a bus bar chamber.

As always in this game I'm still learning, I have no desire to do Industrial and only stick to light modern commercial and domestic. I guess due to larger in-rush currents and high kilowatt machinery mcb's aren't practical compared to BS 88 fuses (etc). Basically what Alanl said in #15.

 

[shanky887614]

Well I did my time years ago at Kier Sheffield, mainly domestic (decent homes scheme house bashing), but also worked on fire alarms, door entry systems etc. We did some small to medium commercial stuff which is my experience of 3 phase.

Generally it was new build so no existing older installs seen. Judging by my MISTAKEN initial post in this thread you can see I haven't had any experience with Industrial installs. Anyway a few of my mentors on commercial jobs ('experienced' time served sparks) would always suggest 3 pole mcb's for safer isolation on 3 phase systems. Their words repeated by me. Never seen a switch fuse feed a final circuit directly, only to feed sub boards generally from a bus bar chamber.

As always in this game I'm still learning, I have no desire to do Industrial and only stick to light modern commercial and domestic. I guess due to larger in-rush currents and high kilowatt machinery mcb's aren't practical compared to BS 88 fuses (etc). Basically what Alanl said in #15.

yeah we had to reconnect, test and comission a boiler house before.

because of the way the panels are we were getting readings too high for 60898 breakers so it went on test sheet as recommended swapping to bs88 (was the overloads causing it because of the dol starters)

 

[ipf]

yeah we had to reconnect, test and comission a boiler house before.

because of the way the panels are we were getting readings too high for 60898 breakers so it went on test sheet as recommended swapping to bs88 (was the overloads causing it because of the dol starters)

I'm getting lost again, here.....what and where did you test?

 

[davesparks]

yeah we had to reconnect, test and comission a boiler house before.

because of the way the panels are we were getting readings too high for 60898 breakers so it went on test sheet as recommended swapping to bs88 (was the overloads causing it because of the dol starters)

Something smells a bit fishy here, how were the overloads having an impact on the supply MCBs ?
And why are you using 60898 (domestic) MCBs for a boiler house? Should they not be 60947s

 

[shanky887614]

Something smells a bit fishy here, how were the overloads having an impact on the supply MCBs ?
And why are you using 60898 (domestic) MCBs for a boiler house? Should they not be 60947s

the overloads were after the mcb's in the panel then out to the triacs then boilers i didnt check the breaker type i posted 60898's simply so you guys knew they were breakers

 

[ipf]

Something smells a bit fishy here, how were the overloads having an impact on the supply MCBs ?
And why are you using 60898 (domestic) MCBs for a boiler house? Should they not be 60947s

Why? How many 'd' type TP 60898 breakers, for example, have you seen in a house?

 

[davesparks]

Why? How many 'd' type TP breakers have you seen in a house?

What on earth has that got to do with it? Any TP d type breaker you buy will be built to 60947, but will also, almost inherently, comply with 60898.
The point is that a breaker which complies with only 60898 is only intended for domestic use whereas a breaker built to both standards or just 60947 is suitable for all.

 

[ipf]

What on earth has that got to do with it? Any TP d type breaker you buy will be built to 60947, but will also, almost inherently, comply with 60898.
The point is that a breaker which complies with only 60898 is only intended for domestic use whereas a breaker built to both standards or just 60947 is suitable for all.

I would imagine that in a boiler house control panel they would have been built to spec. with 60898 labelled.

 

[Andy78]

What on earth has that got to do with it? Any TP d type breaker you buy will be built to 60947, but will also, almost inherently, comply with 60898.
The point is that a breaker which complies with only 60898 is only intended for domestic use whereas a breaker built to both standards or just 60947 is suitable for all.

Is it always as clear cut as that Dave ? I have in front of me for example a 40A TP MCB, C curve, 10kA rated that states BS EN 60898 only. Would that have been produced with domestic application in mind ?

Not trying to be tetchy or argumentative mind, just expanding my knowledge

 

[shanky887614]

Is it always as clear cut as that Dave ? I have in front of me for example a 40A TP MCB, C curve, 10kA rated that states BS EN 60898 only. Would that have been produced with domestic application in mind ?

Not trying to be tetchy or argumentative mind, just expanding my knowledge

why does it need to comply if 10ka rating is satisfactory why do you need 15ka mcbs

 

[davesparks]

Is it always as clear cut as that Dave ? I have in front of me for example a 40A TP MCB, C curve, 10kA rated that states BS EN 60898 only. Would that have been produced with domestic application in mind ?

Not trying to be tetchy or argumentative mind, just expanding my knowledge

BS EN 60898 'low voltage circuit breakers for use in household and similar applications'

BS EN 60947-2 'low voltage circuit breakers for use in industrial and similar installations'

So it all depends on how you define 'similar installations' , I think small commercial offices/shops would be, but what else?

 

[davesparks]

why does it need to comply if 10ka rating is satisfactory why do you need 15ka mcbs

What on earth are you gibbering on about this time?

 

[shanky887614]

BS EN 60898 'low voltage circuit breakers for use in household and similar applications'

BS EN 60947-2 'low voltage circuit breakers for use in industrial and similar installations'

So it all depends on how you define 'similar installations' , I think small commercial offices/shops would be, but what else?

in this paticular case bs60898 breakers are adequite because of the enviroment conditions and measured test results (its located in a school)

 

[Andy78]

BS EN 60898 'low voltage circuit breakers for use in household and similar applications'

BS EN 60947-2 'low voltage circuit breakers for use in industrial and similar installations'

So it all depends on how you define 'similar installations' , I think small commercial offices/shops would be, but what else?

Cheers for that Dave. First time I have heard 60898 referred to as "household" , that's what confused me.
I found this download for some informative bedtime reading ...

http://www.beama.org.uk/download.cfm/docid/6BCA1329-8A17-4C89-B86A629F18D74BB8

 

[shanky887614]

Cheers for that Dave. First time I have heard 60898 referred to as "household" , that's what confused me.
I found this download for some informative bedtime reading ...

http://www.beama.org.uk/download.cfm/docid/6BCA1329-8A17-4C89-B86A629F18D74BB8

here is some info from schneider

blog.schneider-electric.com/energy-...6/iec-60898-1-iec-60947-2-tale-two-standards/

 

[Andy78]

Cheers shanky

 

[shanky887614]

Cheers shanky

bassically 60947-2 is a higher spec version with stricter requirements there is a table and explaination between the two above.

a 60947 can be used in place of a 60898 but a 60898 cant always be used instead of a 60947

 

[ipf]

Cheers for that Dave. First time I have heard 60898 referred to as "household" , that's what confused me.
I found this download for some informative bedtime reading ...

http://www.beama.org.uk/download.cfm/docid/6BCA1329-8A17-4C89-B86A629F18D74BB8

Because it's the bs for all our MCB's. But look at the price difference between the two specifications.

 

[davesparks]

in this paticular case bs60898 breakers are adequite because of the enviroment conditions and measured test results (its located in a school)

]

You're lucky, all the school/commercial boiler rooms I get to work in around here are grotty horrible places, damp and stinking of oil. You'd assume the higher pollution rating to be specified for them.

 

[shanky887614]

You're lucky, all the school/commercial boiler rooms I get to work in around here are grotty horrible places, damp and stinking of oil. You'd assume the higher pollution rating to be specified for them.

nah the worst plant room ive worked in was city hospital in birmingham.

national grid officess plantrooms are defiantly the cleanest ive been to.

the breakers are usuallu dual standard but usually the older plant we work on is bs88 fuses

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Great thread chaps, lots of really juicy meaty stuff in here to rip off the bones.

next beer