Electrician and QS on trial for death of woman

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Discuss Electrician and QS on trial for death of woman in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Its a shame it takes someones death to show how full of cowboys the industry is .... it has happened before and will no doubt happen again but no matter how tight the watchdogs get you will always have those slipping under the net.
 
Terrible case, but putting aside for one second the question of whether these guys are cowboys or not...

We know an EICR can never be a perfect complete certificated guarantee of total safety and compliance. What would your reaction be to the suggestion that actually even the most exactingly and correctly carried out EICR would have been unlikely to pick up on a screw, buried in plaster, which had nicked only the line connection of a cable and thus sent live the metal stud the screw was secured in?

Obviously there is the side issue of whether the circuit in question was RCD protected, and if so why it didn't save her.
 
tazz said:
would say without correct bonding, an RCD isn`t worth a carrot
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But she received a substantial shock current which did not return along the neutral of the circuit supplying the current but instead went down to earth. Result, imbalance and (if present and working) an RCD trip. Or am I missing something?

Although I myself am rather more interested to hear what people think about whether a good EICR would actually have picked up the live metal stud issue.
 
Would say the initial earthing arrangements were at fault, and a full EICR would have pick this up, and rcd can`t trip unless it has a path
 
tazz said:
Would say the initial earthing arrangements were at fault, and a full EICR would have pick this up, and rcd can`t trip unless it has a path
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There was a path, unfortunately it included a human being. The earthing of the stopcock must have been good (either by bonding or extraneous) for it to have been the path of the shock down to earth potential, yes?

My question is, would an EICR necessarily pick up a metal stud, quietly minding its own business within a stud wall, which has gone live through accidental contact with a line conductor? Can't see how myself. If there is bonding for the stud metalwork and that bonding is inspectable/testable and inadequate, then yes. But mostly you wouldn't even be aware there's metal stud there, right?
 
According to the story, it was when she earthed herself by attempting to turn the water supply off is when she was electrocuted. That may well have been correctly bonded? As NickD has said, testing may not have pick up this fault, particularly in dry conditions. As it was due to hidden metal grid it was not necessarily an extraneous conductive part. It was due to water leakage that extended the metal grid works potential beyond the plasterboard / wall.

As regards RCD protection, its not the be all and end all. She may well have only passed a current of 20 -25mA, not enough to trip such a
device but enough to kill.

I'm in no way supporting the electricians as I don't know all the facts, but with the same reasoning, nor am I going to blame them at this stage.

Maybe and just maybe, if the regs were not relaxed regards supplementary bonding in kitchens, this may not have occurred?
 
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Definitely a tragic accident and I will leave the courts to decide the innocence/guilt of the 'electricians'. No doubt there will be 'technical' experts from the 'big boys' giving their evidence against the two.

But it does send a warning signal to all those QS's out there who are signing off others works .... you can end up in just as much trouble when the sh*t hits the fan and Mr H&S comes gunning. And if you are the man at the coal-face doing the work always have at the back of your mind how do I cover my butt on this job. One of your biggest defences is to make sure you've followed BS7671 to the letter, or "interpreted" it correctly as advised by the 'big boys' of the industry !!
 
As NickD has said, testing may not have pick up this fault, particularly in dry conditions. As it was due to hidden metal grid it was not necessarily an extraneous conductive part. It was due to water leakage that extended the metal grid works potential beyond the plasterboard / wall.
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Maybe. It would be interesting to know just what the insulation resistance of the faulty circuit was when tested before the leak, e.g. whether it was a fail, suspiciously low but still technically a pass, or high enough to be completely unremarkable. I think it is unlikely that a large area of interconnected stud would be unreadably high to earth in a new-build but in the height of summer or if only a small amount of metal is involved, only in contact with wood, it's certainly possible that even a careful test would miss it.

The incident raises the question - is it wise to kneel in a puddle of water nearby to energised circuits? Even if the cable had been intact, or in a different situation, could the water have penetrated other fittings and made the puddle live? Perhaps the correct course of action before mopping up any major leak or spill, would have been to flip the consumer unit off...

The question of whether electrical accidents are the results of a poorly regulated industry or remarkable for their scarcity is not a new one. I have a book over 100 years old that makes exactly this point, stating that the close attention insurers were paying to electrical work and standards was not a sign that electrical work was in general dangerous. Because for every electrical inspector, there were a dozen gas ones, and the same for accidents. It's a reminder that you can't compile decent statistics out of newspaper headlines!
 
It makes a mockery of the QS system, the QS never ever attended site, he just counter signed another guys certificate. On a large company there is no way a QS can get around every job examining works carried out by all the guys on the company, this enforces the need for competant electricians which is what our whole argument regarding part p is all about, Also to add why isn't the boss of the company in court?? he sent an electricians mate to do the test knowing he wasn't up to the job, the whole thing is crazy and very sad of course due to a death which should have never happened.
 
My understanding of rcds from the 80`s ....is a human body would withstand upto 50mA before fatality occurs....hence rcds where set at 30mA, so using the human body as a path to earth, a limited current would pass in only milli seconds to trip the said rcd, hence saving the life, so Part of the Ecir test, would be the rcd ms timing....
 
Thought id add a pic of a situation I came across new consumer unit all tested out with no faults just adding a bond cable and moved some pipes in a trunking and an almighty great Bang it was caused by a screw through a cable just touching the live , you cant pic this up on tests it tripped , if it was shear negligence like another recent job i did where on testing i found no earth on the ring mains caused by 9 penetrative faults on the circuit then they deserve all they get , I had my assessment WP_001189.jpg yesterday and i brought this fault up and said how can you test for a screw or nail touching just the live answer you cant as it may not show up
 
In the coming days we will hear all the evidence and I'm not saying this happened here but - I have crossed paths with many so called electricians who do no insulation testing and when I question them they say" if there is a fault it will knock out the mcb or rcd " - hopefully this tragic case will educate them that ALL the tests have to be completed - if at the very least to protect themselves and others in the courts

I really hope the £100 1/2 hour EICR contractors read this and still feel confident when they issue a certificate
 
Less than 20mA can kill if it is prolonged for a number of seconds. It is interesting to not that when on the 17th edition course our lecturer told us metal partitioning with T & E cables running through it MUST be earthed. Alternatively armoured cables should be used.

Now I wonder how many builders know this? and that they should call in a sparky before cladding the metal. I wonder whether the manufacturers of this partitioning include this advice in their erection instructions.

In this case it is conceivable that a proper IR test would not have highlighted the problem.
 
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southsea1201 said:
Less than 20mA can kill if it is prolonged for a number of seconds. It is interesting to not that when on the 17th edition course our lecturer told us metal partitioning with T & E cables running through it MUST be earthed. Alternatively armoured cables should be used.

Now I wonder how many builders know this? and that they should call in a sparky before cladding the metal. I wonder whether the manufacturers of this partitioning include this advice in their erection instructions.
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Good point on builders, and this is my comment on milli seconds and not seconds
 
If the studwork wasn't earthed and assuming that the screw only nicked the live conductor then I cannot see how it would show a fault under test,also it may not have tripped an rcd due to their being sufficient resistance to prevent current flowing to earth.We've all seen examples of this,the classic is were someone puts a drill into a cable then bangs the plug and screw in to fix a shelf,it may trip something initially but once the drill is removed everything's back up and running.The question needs to be asked as to whether, given the increased use of this metal system of studwork if there is a need for bonding all structures of this type back to a known earth.But them again how far do you go? Do we go back to the old days when even metal window frames were bonded?
 
But back to these fantastic rcds....really the idea is that this poor women on passing 30mA, should have tripped this rcd in milli seconds....if all all bonding and initial earthing is in place.....or an I missing something basic here...I am getting old...lol
 
MDJ said:
Also to add why isn't the boss of the company in court?? .
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Because the QS (the assessed competent and trained electrical supervisor) is discharging his duties for him, checking all the work has been done correctly and signing all relevent paperwork to this effect! The bosses shoulders have sloped .......
 
tazz said:
But back to these fantastic rcds....really the idea is that this poor women on passing 30mA, should have tripped this rcd in milli seconds....if all all bonding and initial earthing is in place.....or an I missing something basic here...I am getting old...lol
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That would be my understanding too, if fitted and working!. Though even assuming it tripped somewhere around the 30mA mark the human body reacts differently to it depending on the person. 40mA might not bother me but 20mA may kill someone else ........
 
Badged01 said:
That would be my understanding too, if fitted and working!. Though even assuming it tripped somewhere around the 30mA mark the human body reacts differently to it depending on the person. 40mA might not bother me but 20mA may kill someone else ........
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Hence the reason we test rcds in milli seconds.....I personally think the timing is one very important factor of rcds
 
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I think we may find out an RCD was involved, 30mA is way to high, 10mA would have deffo saved her life. As she was kneeling it is fair to assume letting go was going to be a problem. Really highlights the fact 10 mA RCBO's may be the future in a domestic situation.
 
As we are taught there are a variety of factors that can affect it,if a person is wet then they will be more vulnerable to a current flowing through their body plus theoretically is it not possible for an extremely high current to flow in those few milliseconds before an RCD can react?All the tests that decided on the figures for RCD values are based on theory,they never actually did any test on humans did they?so we don't actually know what the safe values are for certain.
 
Very unfortunate incident, I'm sure there are many other scenarios which could lead to many different injuries but they haven't come to light because no-one has been hurt. As previously said, there is nothing to say this would have come to light in testing and perhaps the installer has been unlucky but I'm sure the courts will decide.
I liken it to the guy driving on the M40 a couple of years ago that fell asleep at the wheel of his can and ended up across a railway track and killing 2 people on the train, most other people get away with it as nothing so serious happens, he was just unlucky and ended up inside, who knows how many other screws are through steel studs, bring back timber.
 
I think there has been a study done somewhere (maybe not on humans but feel free to use terrorists!) that suggested 10mA everybody could tolerate and 40mA was the maximum. Depending on the age of the person, physical condition, environmental factors such as water etc ........

30mA was then chosen as the setting that best compromised safety of the person(?) v nuisance tripping if set at 10mA.
 
phil d said:
As we are taught there are a variety of factors that can affect it,if a person is wet then they will be more vulnerable to a current flowing through their body plus theoretically is it not possible for an extremely high current to flow in those few milliseconds before an RCD can react?All the tests that decided on the figures for RCD values are based on theory,they never actually did any test on humans did they?so we don't actually know what the safe values are for certain.
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Fair comment.........don`t you think we have all had a bash at this, old and new, without slanging matches...I think this has been a constructive debate...!
 
Badged01 said:
I take it by that you mean the grumpy old gits havent logged on yet ..... ;)
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Neither grumpy,old or gittish...but am logged on...This debate brings to mind another problem regarding the frequent arguments we make regarding being competent. I do not know all the details regarding this case,but as everyone is happy to call one of the individuals,"an electrician",we can deduce he possessed the "proper" training,authorization etc. Yet he is still in the mire...I have often talked about the fact that apprenticeships,time-served,qualifications and certification,do NOT guarantee a standard of work. For instance,the fellow judged responsible for the gas explosion near me in Irlam a while ago,was all of the above. We have ALL seen supposedly pukka sparks,leave unbelievable set-ups in their wake...last week i visited an installation where an electrician had put a large 3ph submain a considerable distance,SWA to the PME (insufficient size) straight to the metal Db,linked in 16mm straight to a TT rod...all signed off. Now,if a "electrical trainee" had done that correctly,would that be better or worse? ..And just to prove my grumpiness,10Ma,30Ma...it is like the drink-drive limits,there are no "safe" limits on an RCD,just limits that make it safer...people have received fatal shocks from jump starting cars and fondling electric eels. :wheelchair:
 
tazz said:
Fair comment.........don`t you think we have all had a bash at this, old and new, without slanging matches...I think this has been a constructive debate...!
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Exactly! what a pleasant change to have an intelligent discussion without it deteriorating into a slagging off session.
 
Badged01 said:
Because the QS (the assessed competent and trained electrical supervisor) is discharging his duties for him, checking all the work has been done correctly and signing all relevent paperwork to this effect! The bosses shoulders have sloped .......
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I agree thats why the QS system is a joke really, the boss sent the mate to the JOB, I expect the QS had no idea he was sent there and just signed the paperwork, the QS is guilty of not checking the job out, the boss is guilty of sending an unqualified guy to the job and the mate guilty of forging the paperwork lol, all 3 should be in court.
 
MDJ said:
I agree thats why the QS system is a joke really, the boss sent the mate to the JOB, I expect the QS had no idea he was sent there and just signed the paperwork, the QS is guilty of not checking the job out, the boss is guilty of sending an unqualified guy to the job and the mate guilty of forging the paperwork lol, all 3 should be in court.
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Some of the inspections are dire to say the least,we recently had our house done,we rent from a large social landlord,anyway the guy was in and out in less than an hour. I couldn't follow him around all the time but he certainly didn't do half of what I'd have expected,put it this way I recently replaced all the sockets in the kitchen with stainless ones and he didn't remove one of them to make sure it had been done correctly.There seems to be a lot of this going on nowadays and from speaking to some of the lads in the social housing they are under a lot of pressure to do a certain amount of inspections per day,maybe the fact that their bosses push them should be brought up if ever there is a court case,we know being pushed isn't an excuse for poor work but in some cases it must certainly be a contributing factor.
 
There's a lot of pressure put on people in all walks of life to do things quicker, cheaper etc .... all to make more money/profit for someone else and when you've got a family to feed and mortgage to pay it can make you do things you know you shouldnt do! But ultimately you know once you put your name on that bit of paper if things go wrong its gonna come back and bit you on the butt.

I was always told, "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime" ..... needs a bit of para-phrasing for electrical work but Im sure you get the jest!
 
Badged01 said:
There's a lot of pressure put on people in all walks of life to do things quicker, cheaper etc .... all to make more money/profit for someone else and when you've got a family to feed and mortgage to pay it can make you do things you know you shouldnt do! But ultimately you know once you put your name on that bit of paper if things go wrong its gonna come back and bit you on the butt.

I was always told, "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime" ..... needs a bit of para-phrasing for electrical work but Im sure you get the jest!
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Too right,many years ago I worked as a QS for a firm and packed in because they wanted me to make up test sheets for houses rather than test each one,basically they wanted me to test something like 1 in 5 and adjust the figures slightly for the other 4.
 
Social housing contracts are cut throat! The commercial guys win the contracts at ridiculously low bids just so they get the work. They then expect someone else to put their butts on the line to make sure they make the profit they want. And of course there is no comeback on the commercial team if someone is injured or killed, its the inspector signing it all off!

On a similar note, I once did a bid where I wanted two £1M test rigs to do the contract. Having won the contract it was then decided by the commercial director (against engineering advice) that we would only order one test rig and 'thrash' it 24/7. 2 years down the line after the contract started the program was slipping quicker than going down a greasy firemans pole. 'Told you' was the cry and with some pretty hefty liquidated damages looming the decision was made to procure another one to recover. Don't bother was my response, save yourself £1M, we are going to slip 1 yr but the lead-time for a new rig is 18mths!

Making money is such a big driver that people will take risks and all engineering logic just flies out the window. You just have to have the moral courage to stand up and say "NO", which is a lot easier to say than do!
 
All these guy's signing off stuff that they have not personally checked at least even a random re-check or something for goodness sake. Me ? I even sign "Unchecked" when I have copped the delivery driver before the boss or apprentice haha.
 
tazz said:
My understanding of rcds from the 80`s ....is a human body would withstand upto 50mA before fatality occurs....hence rcds where set at 30mA, so using the human body as a path to earth, a limited current would pass in only milli seconds to trip the said rcd, hence saving the life, so Part of the Ecir test, would be the rcd ms timing....
Click to expand...

My understanding, horrible though it is, is that the limits of how many mA will kill a human were largely investigated and established in ---- concentration camps during the 1940s.
 
her body was live through the live puddle but she'd have felt nothing until she tounched earth which was the potenial difference needed for electricution. had an rcd been installed it would have operated as soon as she earthed herself which is the impalance needed to operate the device, so whats bonding got to do with it?
 
pepparz said:
her body was live through the live puddle but she'd have felt nothing until she tounched earth which was the potenial difference needed for electricution. had an rcd been installed it would have operated as soon as she earthed herself which is the impalance needed to operate the device, so whats bonding got to do with it?
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Eggsactly.

"First principles, Clarice. Simplicity. Read Marcus Aurelius. Of each particular thing ask: what is it in itself? What is its nature?"
 
if anyone has problems understanding how this electricution happened and how it could have been avoided please dont do any electrical work.
 
Badged01 said:
Because the QS (the assessed competent and trained electrical supervisor) is discharging his duties for him, checking all the work has been done correctly and signing all relevent paperwork to this effect! The bosses shoulders have sloped .......[Usually the Managing director or owner of the company is the Duty holder for the business, i"m surprised that he isn't in the dock, he still could be the trial is in its infancy.]
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