I am a new PV householder - advice please. Unbalanced strings and wrong inverter

[juniperz]

I was quoted for a Growatt-3600MTL with 16 Suntech STP 245S panels. We have a large roof, but it is hipped, so the installer proposed 12 panels on the house roof and 4 on a garage roof with same orientation and similar roof elevation. I did a bit of research on the inverter, even had a reply from Growatt saying that the panels should be connected 8 + 8.

So, today they came to install. The electrician has done all the internal wiring but they need to come back Monday to finish the panels and complete the electrical side.
2 Problems:
1) I just looked at the inverter in the attic and found it is not Growatt, but Samil SR4K4TLA1 (also badged Solar River and also known as Samil 4400w).
Any opinions on whether I am better or worse off compared with the quote? Unfortunately I am a new member so cannot post links, but I did find a test that said "A serious competitor - Samil Power's SolarRiver SR4TLA1 replaces Growatts's 5000TL as the best Asian inverter to be tested by PHOTON Lab".
(google "as the best Asian inverter to be tested by PHOTON Lab" and you will find it).

2) I don't think the panels have been wired as 8 + 8. I would like to attach a photo, but can't, but it shows 1 pairs of wires going into a hefty junction box labelled "Garage Roof DC" and another single pair of wires going into a junction box labelled "House Roof DC". Each junction box has leaving from the other end, a single pair of wires. These 4 wires go into the bottom of the inverter. Now I may know nothing about this, but that looks like 12 + 4 to me...
Am I in big trouble? If anyone wants to PM me an email address, I could send the photo if it would help, though it's pretty straight-forward.
Thanks in advance.

 

[sedgy34]

Ask the company to stick to the quote and the choice of materials

 

[ktech]

Never come across Growatt although some on here might have. Wouldn't like to say 100% but on all the inverters we have used 4 panels on a seperate tracker doesn't sound like a good idea. From memory the minimum (depending on wattage / voltage of the panels) is five. I'm assuming that they are using a twin tracker inverter hence unequal panels on the strings, or maybe that are linking them in one string although the pitch and orientaion needs to be the same to do the latter.

I would say the more concerning issue is that you have found a different inverter in the loft to that ordered. This is not good as you should get what you have paid for / been quoted for or have agreed to a variation in the contract. Generally you get a bad smell of the job when this happens. I would question this first and ask for detailed information on the configuration of string / tracker arrangement and also why you have not been consulted on this change of hardware.

 

[juniperz]

Thanks ktech - confirmed my feeling, but wanted a second opinion.

 

[FB.]

I imagine that a 3600W inverter (as originally spec'd) is G83 compliant - capped at 16A output current.

An inverter with 4400W sounds like it may p!$$ off the DNO - and perhaps be ordered to be disconnected from the grid.

Additionally, an oversized inverter will not be as efficient. Generally speaking, an inverter should be about the same as the panel wattage for best efficiency, otherwise on dull days a big inverter can use up everything the panels produce just to remain powered-up.

So I would refuse to accept the installation.

 

[MorganPVI]

There is no way you can balance 12 + 4 - even on a dual maximum power point inverter, let alone a single MMPT. A 4400w is very much over sized, I'd say send it back, but tbh your still going to face issues with a 3.6 Growatt.

The only credible design would be to use 2 inverters, even then you'd really have to split it 11+5 as you'd probably want to use a 1200SB for the smaller inverter (1.2kwp).

I suggest you halt the works immediately given the different inverter supplied, have the installer come round and prove technically that his design is correct and the system is correctly installed, tbh it sounds like your installers have not correctly designed your system and are pulling some kind of a fast one on the equipment - ask for a copy of the variation notice that the installer is required to produce under the terms of the MCS accreditation, you should have already had a copy and signed it!!

 

[cbw]

Hmmmm....If I was quoted for a BMW and was delivered an Audi I would at least expect an explination

Let them finish it and then ask why???

At least you have working kit and have only paid 25%

 

[ktech]

From a customers point of view I would say you are quite within your rights to 1. get an explanation on why you are having different kit fitted from what has been quoted. 2. You should be given detailed design information for the array. If you get 2. feel free to post it for an objective opinion. The type of thing you should ask for is a design tool report. Many invertor manufactuers have tools for designing arrays. However I would suggest playing it cool but to the point and stick to your point. If you work with your supplier but under your terms you may end up with a good system but don't be fobbed off. Hopefully you havn't had to pay a deposit so will have the upper hand. Deposits, in my view, are not required due to reduced system cost today. We always term it as balance on completion to your satisfaction and this effectively becomes as sales tool as it gives customer confidence in our work . The customer is always invited to take a look a the roof work once the hook and rail system have been fitted and also after panels are mounted. If they don't want to venture up the ladders we take photo's anyway so can show them the job - cleaning out the gutters also helps customer satisfaction as well

 

[FB.]

Although I would reject the system on the basis of the inverter, is it not possible that the installer has wired four of the roof panels with the four garage panels on one string, then the other eight roof panels on a second string?
I would ask to see the schematics of the system. The string voltages should also give an idea of how many panels per string. A four-panel string would be in the 100-150Volts range, while an eight-panel string would be in the 200-250Volts range, and a twelve-panel string would be in the 350-400Volts range.

As above posters have said: a string of four panels needs careful consideration due to limited options for inverter, although it may be that your proposed inverter can handle unbalanced strings without a major loss of efficiency.

And, as per the earlier post: I would still be concerned about an oversized inverter which might be able to exceed 16Amps output and annoy your District Network Operator, who can legally order your system to be disconnected from THEIR grid.

Whereabouts in the country are you?

 

[ktech]

I'm my view unbalanced string on a single tracker inverter are a non-starter. If the two arrays are put together in series then it might be ok. But if the two arrays are on different pitches of roof, again non-starter. It's not good to mix different pitches on a string. You only have to use a irradiance meter and alter the pitch to see the difference it makes. Hopefully you can use this guidance and apply it to your array and work out if it is relevant (ie on the different pitch).

 

[whinmoor]

If you'd like some photos posting, email to me and I'll try to put them up: [email protected]

 

[juniperz]

Hopefully you havn't had to pay a deposit so will have the upper hand.

I have paid 20% deposit...

 

[juniperz]

Whereabouts in the country are you?

Bristol

 

[juniperz]

(5th post)

- - - Updated - - -

(6th post

 

[juniperz]

When I contacted Growatt, their Tech Support person said:
"Max. number of parallel strings, means that you could connect 2 strings per MPP tracker. This is usefull when working with low power modules.

This particular inverter can work with the panels STP245S-20/Wd with an string between 5 and 8 panels, so 8+8 will work fine. If you 12+4 you are overloading one of the MPPT trackers (see screen shoots ).
Unless both roof are at facing the same azimuth and with the same tilt, you could physical split them 12 +4 but electrical 8+8.

Here's the 8+8 config

And the 12+4

 

[whinmoor]

 

[juniperz]

Thanks whinmoor - I decided to get to 6 posts! The post above shows the connections and the front of the inverter

 

[juniperz]

Although I would reject the system on the basis of the inverter, is it not possible that the installer has wired four of the roof panels with the four garage panels on one string, then the other eight roof panels on a second string?

I guess that is possible, but if that is the case, then his annotation on the junction boxes is misleading.

I can trace the wires actually - 1 set goes straight out through the house roof, and the other finds its way to the garage roof, so it must be 12 + 4.

 

[Earthstore]

Oh dear, this does not look good, apart from what you have mentioned, If an inverter is mounted on a board, it has to be fire retardant, not just plywood..

It should also be correctly labeled, sorry, but a marker pen does not conform.
Post some more pics of the rest of the install, panel mounting also would be good.

We are seeing far too much of this type of work....

 

[cbw]

I was wondering if they could write on the inverter about dual supply etc.....

 

[babba]

Another Sticky thread.

 

[juniperz]

Another Sticky thread.

I guess I should be flattered!
Can anybody point me at the rules that say that under MCS accreditation, the installer should have issued a variation notice from the different inverted. A quick google didn't find it.

 

[babba]

Is it verbar or on a contract ?

 

[juniperz]

Is it verbar or on a contract ?

Contract, but my wife has put it somewhere and I can't find right now (and she's out). One for tomorrow.

 

[FB.]

.

The inverter and isolators should be clearly labelled, including warning stickers and ideally with schematics provided nearby - here's mine (wall-mounted in a cool downstairs utility room). edit: there is also a "warning: dual supply" yellow sticker on the CU (fusebox).
The inverter is a PowerOne Aurora PVI-3600-UK (output limited to 16A to comply with DNO requirements). As per the schematic to the left of the inverter: it has a string of 7x250W and a string of 8x250W (total 3750W nominal panel output in standard test conditions)- this inverter works best with two strings of 7 or 8 panels and would not be very efficient if running with a string of four panels, while it would exceed the string limit into one MPPT of 2000W if it had more than eight panels into either input (although theoretically a single string of 16 panels could have its power split across the two trackers by connecting the two inside the inverter):

.

 

[Eco Deal]

yes looks like the four panels might as well not be there as they not going to start up the MPPT! as stated above .

Tricky one they should of either used a Mastervolt 600 for the four panels then a single tracker inverter for the other 12.

or gone for solar edge the dip sticks !!!

Makes me laugh really does

 

[juniperz]

.The inverter and isolators should be clearly labelled, including warning stickers and ideally with schematics provided nearby - here's mine (wall-mounted in a cool downstairs utility room). edit: there is also a "warning: dual supply" yellow sticker on the CU (fusebox).

Thanks FB - a couple of points. You specifically emphasise your "cool downstairs utility room". Is loft mounting a problem? It does get pretty hot there in the summer... (Standard red/brown concrete tiles).
The electrician said that he would not need to replace the consumer unit because he would be able to use one of the "ways". As yet, there is no apparent change to the CU, certainly no new labels on the 3 free ways or anything else. It is possible that this happens with the final connection - certainly the power didn't go down yesterday.

 

[FB.]

Thanks FB - a couple of points. You specifically emphasise your "cool downstairs utility room". Is loft mounting a problem? It does get pretty hot there in the summer... (Standard red/brown concrete tiles).
The electrician said that he would not need to replace the consumer unit because he would be able to use one of the "ways". As yet, there is no apparent change to the CU, certainly no new labels on the 3 free ways or anything else. It is possible that this happens with the final connection - certainly the power didn't go down yesterday.

Some inverters cope better than others with heat. I reckon that 40-45 degrees is possible in a loft peak summer (if we ever see a summer again in our lifetimes!).
Check the manual which comes with your inverter to see at which ambient temperature it starts to lose power. Mine is expected to lose power at ambient 40'C although its internal temperature gets to 45-50'C (according to its stored-data logs) with ambient 20-25'C without power derating - this being on sunny days when the inverter is running at or slightly above maximum power (3.75kW+ coming in from the panels and 3.6kW+ going out; yes, a system can occasionally slightly exceed its nominal performance, such as my 250W panels which, occasionally, have reached 270W output per panel in exceptionally good conditions).

The inverter which I have is not ideal for a loft (although I was offered the OUTD version if the inverter was going int the loft).

It seems as if most inverters are fitted in lofts, but I wanted mine downstairs to make it easy to see what it's doing, and easily accessible; no need to clamber around the loft. The North-facing utility room also remains much cooler and more stable temperature than the loft. Electronics prefer cool, stable-temperature locations.

If you have an inverter and isolators in the loft, you ought to also have a smoke detector in the unlikely (but theoretically possible) event of a malfunction starting a small fire which woudl spread to the junk which people inevitably hoard in the loft. There have been one or two reports of loft fires which were thought to have been started by a malfunction of the isolator switches or inverter.

 

[juniperz]

Thanks again FB - a smoke detector sounds like good advice.

And I have an update on Roof Pitch - I have just braved the strong sunshine and rain (what IS going on?) to go on both roofs and measured the pitch:

House 30 degrees to the horizontal (12 x 245w panels)
Garage 35 degrees to the horizontal (4 x 245w panels)​

Does the collective wisdom of this forum think that this renders a single inverter of whichever brand, with one or 2 MPPTs, completely unworkable?
Does it reduce efficiency for one or both strings by a significant amount? Cause damage? Mean that 2 MPPTs is essential?

And THANK YOU. I must say I have been truly impressed by the amount of support that you have all shown to me. It is appreciated that nobody is criticising me for barely knowing what I am talking about - you are helping me learn fast.

 

[poheZ]

You must follow advice and stop the works, it would be futile to carry on as lots of errors have already been made. Did you choose the contractor because of price or were they recommended?

You must think long term on this decision.

 

[juniperz]

You must follow advice and stop the works, it would be futile to carry on as lots of errors have already been made. Did you choose the contractor because of price or were they recommended?

You must think long term on this decision.

Oh I am following advice - I have an email drafted that clearly tells them to stop - though how I stop the roofer from leaving home on Monday morning at 5:30am to travel 100 miles to us I don't know! Not my problem.
In my email I have to ask them to do something.
I can either ask for my 20% deposit back and for them to remove all their equipment (and try and find someone else to do a good job before the FIT rate change on 1st August - I live in Bristol by the way ).
OR
I can ask them to stop what they are doing and come up with a design involving 2 inverters (if that is the best way to cope with differing roof pitches) with mounting on fire retardant materials. I would probably put the proposed design here for comments.

Obviously the second option causes less disruption, but I am not sure how I am going to re-establish trust. In the mean time we have a house covered in scaffolding and I am working away 5 days this week - leaving any on-site problems with my wife (who works 3 days a week!).
At the moment, my draft email is asking for option 2.

I don't know how MCS accreditation works. Could I ask them to audit / check that work is to MIS 3002 standards post commissioning and pre final payment?

PS - To answer questions - Yes, recommendation and yes, price - payback in 6 years seemed attractive, though with different roof pitch and 12+4 wiring that is seriously in question I am now assuming.

 

[Noshocks]

There is no way that four Suntech panels will operate the MPPT channel, even if you did mange to get an output now, or managed to reduce input voltage parameters, in 10 years time after degredation it would stop operating anyway, five is almost always the minimum from experience. I know many people rate the Samil inverters as a budget alternative to the German ones but although the Growatt is also a chineese inverter it just looks, feels and seems when you touch and compare them a much better product, I would stop any more work being done. I suspect you may end up not having the four panel array and use a smaller inverter on the remaining 12 modules, at least this setup will do what it says on the tin.

As said the labeling is another red flag, if you hadent been reccomended by them I would have assumed they were very inexperienced with all the things stated.

I'm not far from you, if you need advice and it cant be resolved.

 

[sedgy34]

Hmmmm....If I was quoted for a BMW and was delivered an Audi I would at least expect an explination

Let them finish it and then ask why???

At least you have working kit and have only paid 25%

your system is not going to work!! correctly if it works at all

 

[Noshocks]

your system is not going to work!! correctly if it works at all

I have seen the Samil Factory, and they dont make Audi's, Proton is a better comparison..

 

[juniperz]

... I suspect you may end up not having the four panel array and use a smaller inverter on the remaining 12 modules, at least this setup will do what it says on the tin.

I'm not far from you, if you need advice and it cant be resolved.

I sent a very detailed email and a follow-up text to the sales person and she called me in 5 minutes. They will try to stop the roofer travelling if they can and know that I am er, unhappy, to say the least.
I asked them to propose a new way forward.
Edit - just got an email - the Ops Director has been contacted and they will stop people travelling and investigate.

If I am going to do this, coming as close to 4kW seems the way to do it, so I would prefer not to go for 12 x 245W as you suggest. Nearly 4kW was being achieved by the use of 16 x 245W panels = 3.92kW.
Do 325W panels exist (in the same size)? 12 x 325w = 3.90kW.
Thanks for the offer.

 

[FB.]

There is no way that four Suntech panels will operate the MPPT channel, even if you did mange to get an output now, or managed to reduce input voltage parameters, in 10 years time after degredation it would stop operating anyway, five is almost always the minimum from experience. .............. I suspect you may end up not having the four panel array and use a smaller inverter on the remaining 12 modules, at least this setup will do what it says on the tin.

I agree.
I suspect that the system will end up being revised to 12x250W = 3kWp on the main roof with a 3kW inverter.

I would prefer not to combine two different tilts (e.g. 30 and 35 degrees) on one string, as I can imagine in certain situations (especially when the sun is relatively low in the sky) the angle of the sun to the panels may cause very different output from those on a different roof pitch, which, over time, might push the bypass diodes a bit too much leading to premature failure of the bypass diodes, which subsequently vents-off as overheating of the panels (degrading performance) due to lack of a bypass for differing amounts of power.
Five degrees difference might be OK, but personally I wouldn't be happy to have them on the same string.
So unless by some miracle the inverter MPPT can cope with a single string of four panels, or unless a 1kW and a 3kW inverter is used in a twin-inverter system, then I see the system being downsized.

I think that the best course of action is not to cancel or to start gobbing-off, but to try to work amicably on an agreeable solution.

I would want:

1.
An inverter "capped" at 16Amps in order to be G83 compliant and not risk the DNO ordering the system to be disconnected from the grid until a current-restricted inverter is fitted.

2.
Proof that adding the four extra panels into one MPPT will actually add to performance.


In regards to #2, since since increasing from 15 to 16 panels contributes 7% more power, but only adds 3.5% to the cost of the system, it can be cost-effective to have panels running at as little as 50% efficiency. Perhaps the installers know that the garage panels will not be as efficient due to small string size, but perhaps they also know that the garage panels will still generate enough to justify their fitting.

Someone I know has a back-to-back array on a 30-degree roof with 2kWp SSW plus 2kWp NNE. The near-North panels will only generate about 50-60% as much as the SSW panels over the course of a year, but it actually worked out slightly more profitable in percentage and absolute terms than having 3kWp South due to the cheapness of panels and all the fixed costs.

 

[juniperz]

...
So unless by some miracle the inverter MPPT can cope with a single string of four panels, or unless a 1kW and a 3kW inverter is used in a twin-inverter system, then I see the system being downsized.

I think that the best course of action is not to cancel or to start gobbing-off, but to try to work amicably on an agreeable solution.

Thanks FB. This is pretty much where I have got to. My email was civil and factual. I am asking them to come up with a spec for 4 panels into 1 inverter and 12 panels into another inverter. This will cost them more but I expect them to swallow it. It will cost me more since I understand inverters need replacing after 10 years, and I will have to replace 2. I am hoping that prices come down with economies of scale!
One problem I can forsee is that they quoted Growatt 3.6kW and fitted Sunil 4.4kW. If I ask them to spec for a 1kW and a 3kW inverter, they can chose whatever they like, and if I am expecting them to pay, they are going to go as cheap as they can. So I might post a spec here tomorrow morning, if they get their act together, and you good people will all be out earning a living!

 

[MorganPVI]

What is the voltage of Suntech panels? If they are high voltage like some 12 x 50v = 600v, this will be a problem when the panels get cold as the voltage will spike and possibly blow some models of inverter.

Also the DTI guide has specific requirements for RCD protection, it is unlikely that you can connect it to a spare way in an existing box also you run the risk of having no RCD protection in the event of electrocution, some inverters can take .4s to discharge /power down.

I think you legally need to allow the present installer to rectify the issues to a satisfactory standard, I suggest you hire a local installer (billing the present installer for their time) to oversee the works and ensure the rectifications are completed to at least a minimum standard.

 

[juniperz]

What is the voltage of Suntech panels? If they are high voltage like some 12 x 50v = 600v, this will be a problem when the panels get cold as the voltage will spike and possibly blow some models of inverter.

Also the DTI guide has specific requirements for RCD protection, it is unlikely that you can connect it to a spare way in an existing box also you run the risk of having no RCD protection in the event of electrocution, some inverters can take .4s to discharge /power down.

I think you legally need to allow the present installer to rectify the issues to a satisfactory standard, I suggest you hire a local installer (billing the present installer for their time) to oversee the works and ensure the rectifications are completed to at least a minimum standard.

There is a tech spec PDF on this page - their quote had said they were using STP245S-20/Wd 245 W (and I have 16 of them in my garage!)
Suntech STP 245S 20/Wd + Solar PV Module | Suntech Solar PV Modules / Panels | Solar PV Modules | Urban Energy
Optimum Operating Voltage (Vmp) 30.5 V
Open - Circuit Voltage (Voc) 37.3 V

On RCDs and existing ways - the quote had said "Additional: Installation of MCB required £150.00" but the electrician had said he would use a spare way. I guess this should also worry me...

 

[sedgy34]

If its aspare way on the rcd side you will have lots of inconvenience with tripping etc
if not just tell this company you will deduct the £150 as you don't require a new distribution board

Im concerned you should be using this company at all after all your concerns

 

[Worcester]

OK guys, so 2 inverters are 2 SSEG's if you keeping to the STRICT interpretation, surely juniperz will need a G83/1-1 Stage 2 application, it might be one site, and the sum might be below 16A, however that is NOT the strict interpretation of G83/1-1 Stage 1

Surely a better implentation here would either be solaredge or enecsys.

Starting from scratch if you guys had a 12/4 to do what inverters/configurations would you have used?

 

[Noshocks]

I would have reccomended a 12 panel system, I am not convinced that the extra expense and hassle of the four panels are justified. Trouble is as we all know we may well lose the job as the next installer convinces the customer that 16 panels can be fitted, and then it ends in this situation.

 

[JulianC]

Would probably quote for the option of a 12 panels system using a 'traditional' inverter and a 16 panel system using Solar Edge

 

[juniperz]

If its aspare way on the rcd side you will have lots of inconvenience with tripping etc
if not just tell this company you will deduct the £150 as you don't require a new distribution board

Yes, I have already told them that.

Im concerned you should be using this company at all after all your concerns

I am concerned too - but given that I have paid a 20% deposit, my house is surrounded by their scaffolding, their rails are on the roof, all the wiring is in place and there is a inverter installed, I feel I have to give them the chance to propose a new configuration before I tell them they need to undo everything and give back my deposit. This may look worrying as an outsider - imagine being us!

 

[juniperz]

Would probably quote for the option of a 12 panels system using a 'traditional' inverter and a 16 panel system using Solar Edge

That's two votes for Solar Edge. Can someone explain why this is the best solution? I could suggest it to the installer. Let me guess - is it really expensive??

 

[JulianC]

That's two votes for Solar Edge. Can someone explain why this is the best solution? I could suggest it to the installer. Let me guess - is it really expensive??

Basically, the single or dual MPP tracker function is taken out of the inverter and individual MPP trackers (power optimisers) are fitted to each panel (usually mounted to the rail behind it). Therefore, the output of a particular panel is optimised, independently of what is going on with those around it. Such a system can accommodate different roof orientations and pitches and even different types of panel in the same string. The last job we did was the first time we fitted one but it was the only real option (3 panels SW facing on a main roof at 50 degrees and 7 panels W facing on a garage at 45 degrees, with added shading complications). Does cost more than a similarly sized Fronius or SMA inverter, but not massively so tbh. Dunno how much the cheap Chinese inverters cost....

 

[juniperz]

If this is the right inverter, it doesn't look much different in cost compared with the Growatt 3600 that they originally quoted.
Solar Edge Inverter 3680W 16A AC Clamped - SE-3680 at Swithenbanks Alternative Energy | Grid Tie Inverters | Solar Photovoltaic
Presumably it is the MPPTs for each panel that bump up the cost.

 

[JulianC]

One of these per panel: Solar Edge 250W Power Optimiser with MC4 Connectors at Swithenbanks Alternative Energy | Grid Tie Inverters | Solar Photovoltaic

 

[juniperz]

I couldn't resist downloading the Solar Edge Site Designer software

The software doesn't seem to include the UK-specific 3680W 16A AC Clamped - SE-3680 so I uesd the 4000

 

[juniperz]

With a conventional inverter, the wiring seems to be in series for each string, with the panels daisy-chained.
With a Solar Edge Inverter 3680W 16A AC Clamped - SE-3680 and 16 lots of Solar Edge 250W Power Optimiser + Panels, are they wired in parallel, so that 16 pairs of wires need to find their way from roof to inverter?