Latest on the court challenge!!!

[wstevew]

Perhaps DECC discovered buying up the stock of panels is cheaper than appeal costs!

All panels out until April fools!

 

[dansk]

I just had that email - was going to post in here - god good its panic buying all over again - or its a good ploy to up there prices, i need not worry i would never use a supplier with such under hand tactics.

 

[Somecamel]

Perhaps DECC discovered buying up the stock of panels is cheaper than appeal costs!

All panels out until April fools!

haha, you could be right on that one

 

[Somecamel]

Just spoke to SEGEN and they have confirmed that panic buying has returned.

Seems a lot of people are just reserving the stock!!! SEGEN have said they will only reserve stock for 24 hours then it goes back up for sale.

 

[dougalthedog]

Just heard Greg Barker babbling on radio 4 about how it will cost consumers billions if they lose etc. etc.

What nobody seems to be asking is that if the scheme was so flawed (he blamed labour for setting it up) then why did they not act sooner (as they did for >50kWp) and introduce, for example a sliding scale of FITs. They could have reduced the FIT rate by a few pence every month which would have had the effect of reducing the overall FIT cost in line with what they wished to do with the sudden cut (and failed due to the goldrush!) whilst at the same time maintaining a sustainable solar PV industry and incentivising suppliers to reduce their prices in line.

 

[Eco Deal]

“We want to maximise the number of installations that are possible within the available budget rather than use available money to pay a higher tariff to half the number of installations. Solar PV can have strong and vibrant future in UK and we want a lasting FiTs scheme to support that future and jobs in the industry.”

The Appeal Court judges will make a decision on whether to grant permission in the next few days; if it is granted, the case can go to the Supreme Court. If permission is refused, Government would still have the fall-back option of applying to the Supreme Court itself for permission to appeal.

why are people panic buying and putting ads out at 43.3p !!!! still NOT 100%

 

[dougalthedog]

Barking also said something along the lines of that for every one installation that gets 43p two would lose out compared to if the rate was 21p. Now 2 x 21 = 42 which is very close to 43p! Am I missing something to do with admin costs or present/future values or is he talking rubbish?

 

[moggy1968]

yep, we are still no more certain than yesterday.
also, I don't believe the rush will be like november. those that wanted to get in mostly got in

 

[Somecamel]

I don't think the Government will ever win this case and as we all know are just trying to drag it out.

It's a difficult one but I think that people that install before March 3rd will probably get the 43p but won't know that they are going to get it until the government loses the last battle.

Hardly a valid sales point and I would not repeat this to my customers.

Think I'll pop a system on my mums house now anyway

 

[dansk]

Just heard Greg Barker babbling on radio 4 about how it will cost consumers billions if they lose etc. etc.

What nobody seems to be asking is that if the scheme was so flawed (he blamed labour for setting it up) then why did they not act sooner (as they did for >50kWp) and introduce, for example a sliding scale of FITs. They could have reduced the FIT rate by a few pence every month which would have had the effect of reducing the overall FIT cost in line with what they wished to do with the sudden cut (and failed due to the goldrush!) whilst at the same time maintaining a sustainable solar PV industry and incentivising suppliers to reduce their prices in line.

Because that requires common sense - that's something you don't need to be a politician, and don't forget it hasn't snowed unless it snows on Westminster! They don't have a clue what's happening out in the field.

 

[JulianC]

Well, as far as I'm concerned it's still 21p until Mr. C-rated and his cronies confirm otherwise. It really does take a special kind of idiot to panic buy today, given things are far from settled. Anyhoo, at the moment I am not bothered, because our first order of the year arrived this afternoon. A nice 4kW system, sold on 21p. I am happy (or less grumpy than usual according to the wife). There'd better be stock available.....

 

[dansk]

You better start panic buying.....good grief.

 

[moggy1968]

sorry, too busy running around in circles making chicken noises to pick up the phone and buy anything.
Alternatively I might just go back to watching the film on iplayer I was watching!

 

[solarsavings]

Just had an mailshot from one company saying "Goldrush 2" they say that they are out of stock and their website says "stock taking" watch the prices go up again now.

 

[TedM]

Agree with Bruce's comments. More from me later in the Sun Lounge.

 

[Somecamel]

Pvkits direct

 

[Gavin A]

the madness started slightly earlier than I thought.

We currently may or may not have the Sanyo 250's we need for customers who'd confirmed in last few days. The order is in, but from the wrong warehouse, and Segen ain't picking up the phone to confirm either way.

We'd almost filled our Feb order book in the last few days anyway regardless of this nonsense, now we're just going to be struggling to source kit for when we need it again.:furious3:

 

[JulianC]

Pvkits direct

Shafted me last year. Won't get the opportunity to do it again.

 

[Eco Deal]

We have sent out 65 quotes since 11th of Jan and now the orders are coming in at 21p rate!!!!

 

[SRE]

Supreme court is going to take 8 months - 21p is here til April, no need to panic buy, nothing is going to be sorted before the end of the Summer. Government 1 solar industry 0 I think!!

http://www.clickgreen.org.uk/news/n...ght-month-wait-for-feed-in-tariff-appeal.html

 

[pjcomp]

Lucky for this lot we don't all work at that pace. Lights fused, M'Lud? Be round next August.

PJ

 

[moggy1968]

effing useless!!

 

[moggy1968]

sorry m'lud, can't change your lightbulbs until we have heard the appeal from the candles!!

 

[finchy]

Wow 65 quotes, how much advertising are you doing .....? we did an advert in the local press not even a miss call !!

 

[funboy57]

Er. think you better read this

Supreme Court warns of EIGHT MONTH wait for Feed-in Tariff appeal > National News > News | Click Green

Woops just seen its already posted

 

[mdovey]

So where does that place those who have installations between the 12 December and the 3 March as regards their FIT payments from 1 April, until the Supreme Court makes up its mind?

Will they be paid at the 21p rate, until a supreme court ruling, and then if DECC loses expect to receive a cheque covering the underpayments?

Will they be paid at the 43p rate until a supreme court ruling, and then be chased from energy companies for the overpayments if DECC wins?

Will interest be charged on the underpayments/overpayments?

 

[SRE]

43p til April, 21p after that until the ruling and a back payment if the government loses. But one thing is for sure they've stopped the second gold rush.

 

[Eco Deal]

Let me get my crytal ball out!!!! yeah the gov will still go supreme court just to waste more time !!!!

oh well !!!

 

[Noshocks]

I had four jobs booked in for Feb at £0.21, ordered kit for three of them last night., just in case, ordered fourth one at 1pm, all modules sold, this was K, which is not a small wholesaler by any means, I think the gold rush has started, at least all my quotes are based on lower rate so no comeback later if it goes ---- up.

 

[mdovey]

Is there a customer goldrush, or just installers burnt in the last one stockpiling equipment in expectation of a customer rush?

I could be wrong, but I can't see many being willing to take a gamble of £000s when they will not know for certain what the outcome of that gamble for a year, particularly in today's economic climate.

On the other hand, I suspect some customers who ordered in the last few days banking on DECC losing today, will get cold feet on learning that it will not be resolved until late in the year, and will use the 7 day cooling off period.

 

[sambotc]

Give me a baseball bat, Greg Barker ,Chris Huhne and an empty room for an hour, and i'll personally pay the difference if the 43p doesn't go ahead. :furious3:

 

[moggy1968]

I think some installers have jumped the gun here and risk being left with a lot of spare kit.
I'm sure some will now be quoting at 43.3p (as some already have been)

 

[synergy power]

So let me just get this straight, it has been announced that the tariff is 43p until 3rd March. BUT, the government are going to supreme court.

If the government win at supreme court does this mean that all the installs between now and 3rd March will go to 21p?

So, we can legally sell at 43p but if the government wins at supreme court who will be in the wrong the installer or the government?

How the hell are we meant to sell Solar with such uncertainty about the main incentive which is how much you get paid....

I'm going through so many emotions now!

 

[Eco Deal]

Just sell at 21p then theres no probs !!! all those selling a 43.3p and panic buying are crazy??

I say the installer would be in the wrong for selling at 43 if they know it could really be 21p

I have had calls today from other installers asking for inverters ??/

and a big national asking if we can start installing on 6/2/2011 ??

 

[moggy1968]

no, you cannot sell at 43p. (well 43p til April then 21p). technically the rate at the moment is 43.3p because the GOvernment lost it's case. but if you sell at that rate and they win the appeal you could be liable for the whole of the customers losses over the 25 year period and be guilty of misselling, as you knew what the situation was.
basically you sell at 21p and anything else is a bonus for the customer.

 

[dansk]

If nothing else its stirred the hornets nest up and got people moving again - ive taken bookings today @21p - so im pleased.

 

[TallPaul]

Anyone want to know the experience of a punter? (me!)

I wanted to get a PV system last years, but in November it was all a bit mad with panel shortages and the uneasy feeling that the people who were available were probably not the best installers, as the best ones were already booked in advance.

Tried this year (assuming 21p) to get a series of quotes, but of course its all gone mad again, so am I doing well if I buy now as there is chance I get 43p (I read ruling as December 12th - March 3rd 43p at the moment, supreme court overrule then its 21p all round) or am I going to pay over the odds for panels as the distributors are going mad and trying to make some money.

More or less tempted to say sod this and wait for April when the madness subsides and I know its 21p, the problem is with roof space for ~4KW system - projection over 25 years is massive difference for 21p to 43p. If I could be sure I was not getting done on the panel price, and able to get a well experienced and stable installer I would just order now as normal.

One thing I can say with 100% certainty as a punter, none of this helps anyone in the industry I expect or the consumers. The only people winning is the government budget that was badly planned and administered.

 

[synergy power]

I know this is going to sound stupid but surely selling at 21p is also misselling as the tariff is actually 43p.... So much uncertainty its ridiculous. I feel like i'm being bullied by Chris Huhne and Greg Barker

 

[powervan]

SHAMBLES SHAMBLES SHAMBLES!!!!! all kit gone already!!! absoloute ******** !! im not even getting involved now dont need that stress again plus suppliers just getting rid of kit they wernt gonna flog anytime soon!!! just means we now have to wait till april for it all to settle and get the bits missing from the last debarcle!!!

 

[GaryM]

I handed over a deposit last night for a 4kW system to be installed next Thursday. I'd like to bet the same deal would be £2K more today!
I gambled on the government losing and the tariff reverting back to 43.3p though still accept that an investment at 21p is better than anything else on the market at the moment.

 

[Somecamel]

More or less tempted to say sod this and wait for April when the madness subsides and I know its 21p, the problem is with roof space for ~4KW system - projection over 25 years is massive difference for 21p to 43p. If I could be sure I was not getting done on the panel price, and able to get a well experienced and stable installer I would just order now as normal.

We don't know what the Tariff rate will be Post April 2012

 

[moggy1968]

I think best advice to customers is get it done before April when everyhting could change again. assume a 21p return, anything else is a bonus.

 

[moggy1968]

I know this is going to sound stupid but surely selling at 21p is also misselling as the tariff is actually 43p.... So much uncertainty its ridiculous. I feel like i'm being bullied by Chris Huhne and Greg Barker

rather unlikely someone is going to sue your --- off 'cos they got too much money though!!
And yes, the Government is trying to bully us. I think they are now only fighting this to try and save face, It's definately personal now. And lets not forget how they tried to force us to accept their illegal behaviour by threatening to close the scheme altogether. Unbeleievable.

 

[powervan]

just makes me laugh that say PVKITS DIRECT send out email GOLDRUSH and all existing stock has GONE!! who is worse government? installers ? suppliers? when is the appeal? if you fit at 43.3 and they win can/WILL (real) take people to court?? so many questions

 

[Gavin A]

If I'm reading this right, then if the supreme court doesn't make a judgement for months, does this mean we'll still not be certain of the rate even from 3rd March, or even 1st April?

This looks like being a very hollow victory for those who've taken the court action on behalf of the industry but without asking for for or receiving anyone elses backing on it, and I reckon the delays and uncertainty this has caused will have led to at least as many job losses and bankruptcies as the actual reduction to 21p from 12th Dec would have done by itself if left to stand. Maybe a bit unfair to lay this at the door of those taking the court action rather than the government, but this response was entirely predictable, and I reckon the likes of BPVA had it right with their strategy of trying to keep the government on side and working with them to try to get a better framework in place instead of going head to head with them in court.

Just my two pence worth.

 

[moggy1968]

no, the changes from April have been made by legal means. It will only affect installations between 12.12.11. and 02.03.12
I presume then that your happy just to bend over and take it like a man!
Personally I don't think politicians should be allowed to break the law and get away with it.
I'm not, why should they be.

 

[SRE]

Am I missing something???

We're still @ 21p until the Supreme Court hears the appeal - that won't be until well after the 3/3 when everything drops to 21p. So where's the goldrush? Only for idiots imho ;-) I'm ignoring it. I think I can make 21p work - just - and that's what I'm selling until 1st April.

 

[SRE]

For what it's worth I think the appeal was right - I need to be able to tell my customers they will get the 21p for 25 years and this at least will make the govt think again about changing that. 43p's a lost cause now I think, a nice bonus if it comes through but it doesn't even come into the equation anymore for me.

 

[JulianC]

I think some of the panic buying news might be scaremongering from suppliers trying to get us to start panic buying. After all, they can't have been shifting much stock lately. Spoke to my main supplier today, one of the bigger players, and they told me they'd seen some upturn but nothing to write home about.

 

[Gavin A]

Am I missing something???

We're still @ 21p until the Supreme Court hears the appeal - that won't be until well after the 3/3 when everything drops to 21p. So where's the goldrush? Only for idiots imho ;-) I'm ignoring it. I think I can make 21p work - just - and that's what I'm selling until 1st April.

I don't know about a gold rush, but if the equipment we need to do the installs we've contracted for at 21p is being snapped up, then we also have to get the confirmations in and buy the equipment up. No panels, no installation whatever the FIT rate, although it's only really certain panels there are major problems with - eg Sanyo H 250's via segen at least.

I think it's calmed down a bit now though.