OP
Deleted member 9648
Engineer I cant see anything here explaining why it is bad practice...all I can see is blind prejudice and an inability to actually think about what you are saying.
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Please checkout the new poll we will be pushing hard, and want some good stories to come out of this
result are public - you can change your vote over time, which might genuinely be the case from time to time.
Search the forum,
D
Engineer I cant see anything here explaining why it is bad practice...all I can see is blind prejudice and an inability to actually think about what you are saying.
M
D
Exactly mate.....we used to wire lights with no CPC....we've moved on.
A
What's the difference between using the switch as a 'joint box' and using a terminal block in a light fitting (which usually ends up getting stuffed into the ceiling void)
Fair enough if you ONLY have ceiling roses, but how many have them these days? Looping in at the switch is particularly practical if you have more than one set of lights in the room, or for wall lights, downlights, or any decorative fitting that typically has no space for anything other than LNE.
The fact that you blindly regard looping in at the switch as 'bad practice' indicates you're the kind of person that follows only what they have been taught or read without any proper understanding or open thinking about what might be the best solution to a situation.
M
J
E
I was taught that wiring accessory points should not be used as joint boxes, probably the same as you were. And that is the very point!!! They are Not joint boxes and were never designed to be so either.
OH .... and my thinking is fine thanks, and i'll stick to my mode thinking on this particular matter!!! I've seen what switch box junction points look like on some of the Yankee code installations i've seen on other overseas projects. If you think that's good practice, perhaps it's you that has the inability to actually think about what your saying
P
If adding another light would you need to take a feed from the switch???????
Again, why is it better to stuff the looped lives into a terminal block in the ceiling than at the switch? 'Wiring accessory points' are indeed to be used as 'joint boxes' otherwise how would you connect the accessory to the wires?
M
if it is to be switched independantly then yes
but if the feed was in the ceiling loop or dodgy j/b then you would still need to chase the wall out to do a new switch , so its 6 of one and half a dozen of the other
P
If adding another light, you already have a feed at the switch, so you'd just need one more cable to your new light. Otherwise you'd need to take a new feed from another light, and another cable to a switch.
But anyway, I'm not saying loop in at the switch is the ONLY way to do things. You choose which is most appropriate while designing the circuit.
P
i already am. wireless switching and wireless passive infrareds outside. fantastic bit of kit and not too expensive
Who mentioned sockets?!
G
P
If its changing again before the present standard is sorted,I have had enough,I will stay with the present standard
What is the present standard by the way
E
P
i have just read my post back wireless "PIR`S" sounds like a drive by periodic. im off to edit my post to wireless passive infrared
I'm firmly against penicillin in switch boxes.
P
so am i at nearly 8 quid a perscription
D
P
E
Risk falling of a ladder what about takeing a Zs reading....Hold on lets just do the calculation Zs= Ze + R1 + R2 like the Niceic say to do.
I've never seen this and never ever been taught to this. Il also never teach anyone to do it.
N
£8.00 .................Free i wales
as for switch fed , untill lighting manufacturers stop putting idiotic connectors in there light fittings then i will switch feed , but only in wall lights etc where there is a risk of multiple cables being damaged by heat or crushed by the fitting , i way prefer and will always do loop in and out at the ceilings and JB where nessesary
G
G
L
Indeed. Very odd.
D
P
Perhaps there isnt any??????????
N
M
E
Hager!
The wall switches feature a neutral loop terminal contained within the accessory. This allows contractors to complete the loop connection in the switch instead of in the ceiling rose to save extra wiring to the light fittings. Not only does this reduce cabling and the uncomfortable time spent working at ceiling level, but it also meets the needs of BS7671 since the connections are readily accessible for inspection.
What a daft statement, look at it from a different point of view, there is no need for a permenant live at a ceiling pendant but its there.
Its just a different way of wiring, what can you fail it on?.....nothing.
G
E
It's closed, case dismissed, the prosecution failed to turn up!
G
emergency lighting perhaps?
Discuss Neutrals at switches in the Australia area at ElectriciansForums.net
Engineer I cant see anything here explaining why it is bad practice...all I can see is blind prejudice and an inability to actually think about what you are saying.
OP
morph
we used to think ring final circuits were the best , and power radials were dodgy foreign things
**** changes!
**** changes!
OP
Deleted member 9648
Exactly mate.....we used to wire lights with no CPC....we've moved on.
OP
Adam W
I think the main change over time here is consumers' attitudes towards lighting - 'back in the day' imaginative lighting solutions were restricted to whatever shade you could hang on a pendant, whereas nowadays you can buy all manner of halogen, track, spot, decorative fitting, many of which aren't supplied with a loop terminal. It seems half the questions we get from DIYers is about their new light being on when it should be off and the breaker operating when it should switch on, ie a lack of understanding of the 3 plate method.
What's the difference between using the switch as a 'joint box' and using a terminal block in a light fitting (which usually ends up getting stuffed into the ceiling void)
Fair enough if you ONLY have ceiling roses, but how many have them these days? Looping in at the switch is particularly practical if you have more than one set of lights in the room, or for wall lights, downlights, or any decorative fitting that typically has no space for anything other than LNE.
The fact that you blindly regard looping in at the switch as 'bad practice' indicates you're the kind of person that follows only what they have been taught or read without any proper understanding or open thinking about what might be the best solution to a situation.
OP
marky sparky
was trained to make neutrals off in ceiling void and found lights wired with neutrals at switches,which i found strange but does make it easier for down lights as long as back box is deep enough.
OP
Jamieh18
Ive just finished my apprenticeship. The boss taught me too do it this way as he said it was easier than risking falling off a ladder 6ft up, i did question whether it was bad practice, he said no. I find myself doing the final connections at the switch is better than leaving a junction box up above, where it could then be a pain in the --- for the next bloke coming in?
OP
Engineer54
I was taught that wiring accessory points should not be used as joint boxes, probably the same as you were. And that is the very point!!! They are Not joint boxes and were never designed to be so either.
OH .... and my thinking is fine thanks, and i'll stick to my mode thinking on this particular matter!!! I've seen what switch box junction points look like on some of the Yankee code installations i've seen on other overseas projects. If you think that's good practice, perhaps it's you that has the inability to actually think about what your saying
OP
peterb2428
As opposed to a terminal block at the ceiling? Great logic luv
If adding another light would you need to take a feed from the switch???????
Ah Ah I like this thread
Its been stated 3-plate is standard/good practice and was always taught
When may ask did the "good" practice of looping in at the lights begin ?
It certainly was not standard practice in the 60s
Standard practice in a domestic in the 60s was a junction box under the floor boards with the supply live and neutral,switch cables and one cable at the light,neutrals may have been the exception with a single slung around the roses to loop those lights
Granted the neutrals were not at the switch,but the method doesn't need considering these days because it was old hat
I used to wire and fit star delta starters that had a handle on them, for the user to swing over when they thought the speed was just right,they are no longer used, because, it was a practice that would be out of step with other and better methods available since
I thought I'd stick that in just in case I suddenly became a Domestic installer
Times change,wiring methods sometimes also need to change, and us older lot need to put aside the attitude of this is how we did it,so that is the way it should always be done
Its like I said earlier,there is no correct method,we are supposed to design simple and even complex circuits to the best methods available, whatever opinions we may be tied to
I am staying "neutral" because there has not yet been one post that gives an electrical reason why it should not be done,rather the 3-plate method seems to be taking a bit of a bashing and the switch method has shown to have more advantages
Its been stated 3-plate is standard/good practice and was always taught
When may ask did the "good" practice of looping in at the lights begin ?
It certainly was not standard practice in the 60s
Standard practice in a domestic in the 60s was a junction box under the floor boards with the supply live and neutral,switch cables and one cable at the light,neutrals may have been the exception with a single slung around the roses to loop those lights
Granted the neutrals were not at the switch,but the method doesn't need considering these days because it was old hat
I used to wire and fit star delta starters that had a handle on them, for the user to swing over when they thought the speed was just right,they are no longer used, because, it was a practice that would be out of step with other and better methods available since
I thought I'd stick that in just in case I suddenly became a Domestic installer
Times change,wiring methods sometimes also need to change, and us older lot need to put aside the attitude of this is how we did it,so that is the way it should always be done
Its like I said earlier,there is no correct method,we are supposed to design simple and even complex circuits to the best methods available, whatever opinions we may be tied to
I am staying "neutral"
because there has not yet been one post that gives an electrical reason why it should not be done,rather the 3-plate method seems to be taking a bit of a bashing and the switch method has shown to have more advantages
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Again, why is it better to stuff the looped lives into a terminal block in the ceiling than at the switch? 'Wiring accessory points' are indeed to be used as 'joint boxes' otherwise how would you connect the accessory to the wires?
OP
morph
if it is to be switched independantly then yes
but if the feed was in the ceiling loop or dodgy j/b then you would still need to chase the wall out to do a new switch , so its 6 of one and half a dozen of the other
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I take it it's a 'slow news day' on the forum if this thread is anything to go by!
I'd like to show the quality of work on many of my PIR's where a neutral at a light switch would be treated with the attention and code that it deserves (none).
Was there a reference earlier questioning the quality of the apprenticeship served because of someone's willing to introduce a neutral to a switch position?
I've heard it all now and if you think sticking to a pointless clause of 1960's specifications is engineering free thinking then I'm out of touch!
Loop your neutral according to the characteristics of your light fittings rather than 'how we did it in the good old day's!'
I'd like to show the quality of work on many of my PIR's where a neutral at a light switch would be treated with the attention and code that it deserves (none).
Was there a reference earlier questioning the quality of the apprenticeship served because of someone's willing to introduce a neutral to a switch position?
I've heard it all now and if you think sticking to a pointless clause of 1960's specifications is engineering free thinking then I'm out of touch!
Loop your neutral according to the characteristics of your light fittings rather than 'how we did it in the good old day's!'
OP
peterb2428
But surely if the switches have been plastered in then you would need to chase two sockets? but if feed was taken from ceiling not the same prob?
If adding another light, you already have a feed at the switch, so you'd just need one more cable to your new light. Otherwise you'd need to take a new feed from another light, and another cable to a switch.
But anyway, I'm not saying loop in at the switch is the ONLY way to do things. You choose which is most appropriate while designing the circuit.
OP
Phil
That's why we'll all be using wireless switching soon
i already am. wireless switching and wireless passive infrareds outside. fantastic bit of kit and not too expensive
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Who mentioned sockets?!
OP
Guest 004
@E54 with you all the way
OP
peterb2428
switch sockets/plates/backbox/whatever
If its changing again before the present standard is sorted,I have had enough,I will stay with the present standard
What is the present standard by the way
OP
ezzzekiel
a lot of people were against penecillin when first introduced
OP
Phil
If its changing again before the present standard is sorted,I have had enough,I will stay with the present standard
What is the present standard by the way
i have just read my post back wireless "PIR`S" sounds like a drive by periodic. im off to edit my post to wireless passive infrared
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I'm firmly against penicillin in switch boxes.
OP
Phil
so am i at nearly 8 quid a perscription
OP
davelerave
don't work in UK -but all dom work i do is done that way
you won't do it for laziness anyhow as it's more copper and work
you won't do it for laziness anyhow
as it's more copper and work
OP
peterb2428
OP
Electricalserv
Risk falling of a ladder what about takeing a Zs reading....Hold on lets just do the calculation Zs= Ze + R1 + R2 like the Niceic say to do.
I've never seen this and never ever been taught to this. Il also never teach anyone to do it.
OP
nickblake
£8.00 .................Free i wales
as for switch fed , untill lighting manufacturers stop putting idiotic connectors in there light fittings then i will switch feed , but only in wall lights etc where there is a risk of multiple cables being damaged by heat or crushed by the fitting , i way prefer and will always do loop in and out at the ceilings and JB where nessesary
OP
Guest 004
ah another controversial thread started by yours truly, lol.
and on another note, who would use a fuseboard as a wireway?
and on another note, who would use a fuseboard as a wireway?
OP
Guest 004
I rarely do any domestic but if I do the odd one then its loop feed at switches and loop neutrals at the the lights in single core PVC sheathed cable!
The firm I started out with used to use double pole light switches i.e looping a l + n at the switches then firing off a sw + n up to the fitting. I was taught that as long as they were double pole switches then it was ok but i haven't seen this method used since I finished working for them.
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The firm I started out with used to use double pole light switches i.e looping a l + n at the switches then firing off a sw + n up to the fitting. I was taught that as long as they were double pole switches then it was ok but i haven't seen this method used since I finished working for them.
Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk
OP
londonlec
I find it hard to beleive that 'electricians' haven't seen this wiring method. Maybe they are armchair experts?
Indeed. Very odd.
OP
Deleted member 9648
86 posts and still nobody has said why it is bad practice??....Come on E54? ,MrEnigma? etc......What is the electrical reason why a N joint shouldnt be in a switch box?
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Nothing wrong with neutrals in the switch box, I generally prefer it due to amounts of spots and fancy light fitting that I'm installing. Easier & safer to wire at ground level and no need to jb in inaccessible positions at the light fitting
OP
peterb2428
Perhaps there isnt any??????????
OP
nickblake
Seen it loads of times pain in the butt if you need to add to the circuit you end up with a big star circuit tapped off jb's
At college I was taught 2 methods; either take a SW/L and N to the fitting or a L and SW/L to the switch, whichever method is suitable for the application. If I'm wiring a light for a loft conversion why would I extend the supply to the fitting, probably on the same route as going to the switch, then come back again? I didn't have the benefit of an apprenticeship, but do try to apply logic to my actions and can't see why it's wrong to take a neutral to a switch position but if it is wrong, am perfectly ready to be educated.
OP
morph
well if wiring a loft conversion
where will the circuit best be fed from? the switches because the supplies will run nicely under the floor up to the switches and then off to the fancy fittings that cant take 3 cables maybe ??
where will the circuit best be fed from? the switches because the supplies will run nicely under the floor up to the switches and then off to the fancy fittings that cant take 3 cables maybe ??
OP
Electricalserv
Why haven't they made a switch that encorparates this then? If connector blocks are needed then obviously non of the manufacturers have picked up on the amount of sparks useing this method.
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Hager!
The wall switches feature a neutral loop terminal contained within the accessory. This allows contractors to complete the loop connection in the switch instead of in the ceiling rose to save extra wiring to the light fittings. Not only does this reduce cabling and the uncomfortable time spent working at ceiling level, but it also meets the needs of BS7671 since the connections are readily accessible for inspection.
- Reaction score
- 85
What a daft statement, look at it from a different point of view, there is no need for a permenant live at a ceiling pendant but its there.
Its just a different way of wiring, what can you fail it on?.....nothing.
OP
Guest 004
who are hager? was he not in a cartoon or something,
a brand that i would not use, unless specified, hey who is specifying hager????
would love to see the 'better' brands do it though, that would close this argument for good!
a brand that i would not use, unless specified, hey who is specifying hager????
would love to see the 'better' brands do it though, that would close this argument for good!
OP
Electricalserv
Personally I think its nonsense having so many cables in a small backbox. Especially when 2 & 3 way switching is involved. Just too many cables.
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It's closed, case dismissed, the prosecution failed to turn up!
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how do i insert a photo?
OP
Guest 004
emergency lighting perhaps?
Reply to Neutrals at switches in the Australia area at ElectriciansForums.net
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