new reqs

[Guest125]

I think this forum highlights a huge problem with the game. So many different interpretations.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I think this forum highlights a huge problem with the game. So many different interpretations.

Oh yes, but I am trying to educate people.
Can only do so much.

 

[spark 68]

spark 68 ... you got there before me! However, do note that both standards can be used from 1 Jan 2015 up until 30 Jun 2015.

My mistake lol, the June date it is lol by page 4

No doubt the way the regs are written there will be a contradiction somewhere.

Edit: on page 7 (BGB) it says the 1st AMD was issued on 1st of July 2011 and intended to come into effect on 1st of Jan 2012, installations designed after 31st Dec 2011 are to comply with BS761:2008 amd1

Joined up thinking by the IET as ever lol

 

[ipf]

has anyone pre ordered the new books yet and weres the cheapest place to get them was tempted to order mine on amazon £130 for the reqs,on site guide, gn3 your thoughts chaps

Well that's a ton up.....made your decision or put your reqqie in?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Up untill this latest amendment, it has always been the situation that an installation designed to one edition or amendment can be constructed to those requirements after the introduction and the coming into force of any new edition or amendment.
Yes there have been many concerns raised due to the Olympic site being constructed to the 16th edition even after 17th edition amd1 came into force.
However it was such a large and expensive project, that redesigning it to newer requirements would probably have entailed new tendering and could possibly have delayed the project.
Costs would certainly have increased, most likely by a substantial amount.
However, I doubt that it is feasible to introduce a requirement for an installation to be re-designed, every time the requirements are updated.

 

[GB.Kayak]

Oh yes, but I am trying to educate people.
Can only do so much.

I for one applaud your efforts ... I too am of the opinion that we are better together, helping each other along.

 

[GB.Kayak]

Well that's a ton up.....made your decision or put your reqqie in?

Clearly the regs are required, the real question is 'will the changes to BS 7671 bring about substantial changes to the onsite guide or GN3?' These things do seem to become something of a 'gravy train' for those producing them. Where I have spent most of my working life to date, tech pub updates involved the updating of individual pages or sections, rarely was a completely new document issued!

 

[netblindpaul]

Well it will be rare for Spin & I to agree, however, he is totally corrct.
The critical date is the design, date, unless this is going to change in Amd3, which we will not know for a few days, the install date is irrelevant.
The installer is just the installer working to the DESIGN, so it is the design date that matters, exactly as the Olymipcs.
No options, no nothing, end of.
The installer is just that small fry, it is down to the designer, the installer is just a paid monkey.
Learn to live with it because them is the FACTS, like it or not.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Thin edge of the wedge.
Get you to agree with one thing and before you know it, you'll be agreeing with everything.

 

[baldsparkies]

Do a web search copy this lot off, or find a more updated version if available and stick it in yer regs book much cheaper surely.
If governing bodies don't accept this and say a new regs book is required, then without doubt sparkies are being ripped off.
Ammendments should be available in short books with updated tables to work alongside your main regs book ie 17th edition 2008 plus updates 1 to 3 in a smaller cover book that should cost you about fifteen quid tops.

[h=2]Part 2 Definitions[/h]Definitions will be expanded and modified. For example, the definition for ‘skilled and instructed persons’ will be changed. It was also decided that the definition for a ‘competent person’ should be removed, to avoid confusion, as it was considered that some overlap existed between the definition of ‘skilled person’ and ‘competent person’.
It was proposed to modify the definition of ‘skilled person’ to align this definition with that of the IEV (International Electrotechnical Vocabulary). The Committee also proposed to modify the definition of ‘instructed person’ for the same purpose.
These changes will be reflected throughout the wiring regulations. For example, Regulation 134.1.1 has been changed from:
"Good workmanship by competent persons or persons under their supervision and proper materials shall be used in the erection of the electrical installation. Electrical equipment shall be installed in accordance with the instructions provided by the manufacturer of the equipment."
to:
"Good workmanship by skilled (electrically) or instructed (electrically) persons and proper materials shall be used in the erection of the electrical installation. The installation of electrical equipment shall take account of manufacturers’ instructions."
Some new symbols have been included in the definitions.
[h=2]Chapter 52 Selection and Erection of Wiring Cables[/h][h=3]Cables concealed in a wall or partition[/h]The Regulations for the selection and erection of wiring systems (impact) will be redrafted, with the removal of all references to “under the supervision of skilled and instructed persons”.
It will be a requirement that cables that are concealed in a wall or partition (at a depth of less than 50 mm) are protected by a 30 mA RCD for all installations if other methods of protection, including the use of cables with either an earthed metallic covering or mechanical protection, are not employed. This will apply to a cable, irrespective of the depth of that cable, in a partition where the construction of the partition includes metallic parts other than fixings.
The exception for cables that form part of a SELV or PELV circuit will be retained.
[h=3]Section 557 Auxiliary Circuits[/h]A new section, Section 557, covering auxiliary circuits for low voltage electrical installations will be included. Auxiliary circuits are defined as circuits for the transmission of signals intended for the detection, supervision or control of the functional status of a main circuit, such as circuits for control, signalling and measurement. Auxiliary circuits for fire and intruder alarms, traffic lights, etc (where specific standards exist) are excluded. This is a completely new section. The current requirements for auxiliary circuits in BS 7671 are given in Regulation 537.5.3 (extract below):
"537.5.3 A circuit shall be designed, arranged and protected to limit dangers resulting from a fault between the control circuit and other conductive parts liable to cause malfunction (eg inadvertent operation) of the controlled equipment."
Section 557 will cover issues such as:
A.c. or d.c. auxiliary circuits;

• power supplies for auxiliary circuits, depending on the main circuit;
• auxiliary circuits supplied by an independent source;
• protection against overcurrent; types and sizes of cables for auxiliary circuits;
• special requirements for auxiliary circuits that are used for measurement; and
• functional safety and EMC;
• the connection of the devices and protection against overcurrent where the auxiliary circuit is supplied from the main circuit via a transformer or rectifier;
• circuits used for measurement, such as connection requirements for voltage and current transformers etc.

[h=3]Section 717 Mobile and Transportable Units[/h]In 2008 Section 717 was introduced, which provided requirements that were applicable to mobile or transportable units. These units may be self-propelled, towed or transportable containers or cabins, for example, technical and facilities vehicles for the entertainment industry, medical services, advertising, firefighting, workshops, offices, and transportable catering units.
There are many risks associated with such units, arising from:

• a loss of connection to earth because of temporary cable connections;
• the connection to different national and local electricity distribution networks;
• the impracticality of establishing an equipotential zone external to the unit;
• open-circuit faults of the PEN conductor of PME supplies, raising the potential of all metalwork (including that of the unit) to dangerous levels;
• shock from high functional currents flowing in protective conductors; and
• vibration while the vehicle or trailer is in motion, or while a transportable unit is being moved – causing faults within the unit installation.

Some of the current Requirements that aim to reduce these risks included:

• Regulation 717.411.1: automatic disconnection shall be by RCD.
• Regulation 717.411.3.1.2: accessible conductive parts of the unit to be connected through the main equipotential bonding to the main earth terminal within the unit.
• Regulation 717.514 (identification): type of supply, voltage rating of the unit, number of phases, on board earthing, and maximum power required by the unit.

[h=3]Changes introduced by Amendment 3[/h]Regulation 717.413 will be introduced, and is based on the latest CENELEC HD. The Regulation will require an insulation monitoring device to be installed so that automatic disconnection of the supply is provided in the case of a first fault or an RCD, and an earth electrode to be installed so that automatic disconnection is provided in the case of failure of the transformer to provide electrical separation.
Regulation 717.551.6 will be added, and will prohibit the interconnection of units with different power supply systems. It also prohibits the interconnection of different earthing systems unless special precautions have been taken, as set out by Regulation 542.1.3.3. This reinforces the general rules in Parts 1 to 6 of BS 7671.
Regulation 717.551.7.2 will be added, which will give additional requirements for installations where the generating set may operate in parallel with other sources. This also reinforces the general rules in Parts 1 to 6 of BS 7671.
Changes will be made to the figures that show examples of connections associated with the mobile or transportable units.
[h=2]Sections 559, 714 and 715: luminaires and lighting installations [/h]In 2008 additional requirements for general lighting were included for:

• protection against fire;
• connection of luminaires to the fixed wiring;
• fixing of the luminaires;
• through-wiring in a luminaire;
• control gear, for example, ballasts;
• compensation capacitors; and
• the need to give consideration to stroboscopic effects.

Amendment 3 will introduce a number of notable changes to align the BS 7671 requirements with the both latest IEC and CENELEC standards. Examples of these intended changes include:

• moving the requirements for outdoor lighting and extra-low voltage lighting installations from Section 559 to two new sections, Section 714 and Section 715;
• requirements for the type of devices that are to be used for the connection of luminaires to the supply and the protection of cables against heat and UV radiation effects within luminaires; and
• introduction of the requirements for protection against electric shock for display stand for luminaires.

[h=2]Section 715 Extra-low Voltage Lighting[/h]The particular requirements apply to installations that are supplied from sources with a maximum rated voltage of 50 V a.c. rms or 120 V d.c. BS 7671 already includes requirements for:

• protection against electric shock (SELV);
• protection against the risk of fire due to short circuit;
• types of wiring systems, including special requirements where bare conductors are used;
• the types of transformers and converters; and
• suspended systems.

Amendment 3 will make a number of notable changes to align the latest IEC requirements with CENELEC requirements, including:

• the types of wiring systems permitted;
• voltage drop in consumer’s installations; and
• requirements for isolation, switching and control.

[h=2]Section 714 Outdoor Lighting Installations[/h]In 2008 some major changes to the requirements for outdoor lighting installations were introduced, covering requirements for:

• car parks;
• gardens;
• parks;
• places open to the public;
• illumination of monuments; and
• floodlighting.

These will be retained in Amendment 3, along with the recommendations for additional protection by a 30 mA RCD for telephone kiosks, bus shelters, advertising panels and town plans.
Amendment 3 will make only minor changes to outdoor lighting installations. One important change will be that individual circuits will be required to be isolated.
[h=2]Chapter 41 Protection Against Electric Shock[/h]References to ‘ordinary persons’ in Regulation 411.3.3 have now been removed.
This Regulation will require, in accordance with Regulation 415.1, RCD protection for socket outlets up to 20 A (and for mobile equipment up to 32 A for use outdoors) for all installations.
There is, however, an exception for RCD protection (for socket outlets up to 20 A) for a specific labelled socket outlet or where a documented risk assessment determines that RCD protection is not necessary.
This means that socket outlets up to 20 A in all types of installations, including commercial, domestic and industrial, will need to be protected by a 30 mA RCD unless a risk assessment can determine that it’s not necessary.
[h=3]‘Cmin’ factor[/h]Maximum earth fault loop impedances given in Tables 41.2, 41.3, 41.4 and 41.6 will be revised to take into account the Cmin factor given in CLC/TR50480:2011.
Cmin is the minimum voltage factor to take account of variations in voltage, depending on time and place, changing of transformer taps and other considerations. The notes to the Tables will be changed to reflect maximum permitted operating temperature. In addition, Regulations 411.5.4 and 41.6.4 will include a Cmin factor.
[h=2]Chapter 42 Protection Against Thermal Effects[/h]Regulation 421.1.200 has been introduced and will require switchgear assemblies, including consumer units, to have their enclosure manufactured from non-combustible, or not readily combustible, material, or to be enclosed in a cabinet or enclosure that is constructed of non-combustible, or not readily combustible, material.
This new Regulation is being introduced to help to protect against fire that can result from the overheating of connections within consumer units. Overheating can arise from loose connections and connections that have not been made correctly, for example, the connection of a cable over the insulation.
[h=2]Appendix 6 Model Forms for Certification and Reporting [/h]Appendix 6 contains the electrical installation certificate, the minor works certificate and the electrical installation condition report (used for reporting on the condition of an existing electrical installation) as required by Part 6 of BS 7671.
[h=3]Condition report[/h]The condition report has a series of inspection schedules. The inspection schedules provide a detailed breakdown of the inspection that is required on each aspect of an installation so that the work is carried out in an organised and efficient manner. For example, the schedule for domestic and similar premises will include over 60 check points. Each item that is listed on the schedule as requiring checking will be accompanied with the relevant regulation number of BS 7671 for ease of reference. In addition, the form provides a facility to indicate the outcome of the inspection of each item with either a tick (acceptable condition), a code C1 or C2 (unacceptable condition), NV (not verified), Lim (limitation) or NA (not applicable).
Amendment 3 will make a small number of changes to the electrical installation condition report and associated notes, including a requirement to carry out an inspection within an accessible roof space where electrical equipment is present in that roof space.
Amendment 3 will make a significant change to the certification of new work: the schedule of inspections (for new work only) has been replaced by examples of items that require inspection during initial verifications (which must be appended to the electrical installation certificate).

 

[David M]

Are we in agreement that after the 1st of July you should not be installing to the previous version? Regardless whether or not it is designed in December 2014.

Its a difficult one to call,

Implementation Dates:
1st January 2015 - The Third amendment to BS 7671:2008, The IET Wiring Regulations, became effective on this date. Following this, contractors have a six month transition period to get up to speed with the changes and can design, install and certify to either the new or previous standard.
1st July 2015 – From this date it is a requirement that all electrical installations designed and periodically inspected comply with the updated regulations. Contractors will be expected to hold a copy of BS 7671:2008, incorporating Amendment 3, for any assessment visit taking place after this date.
1st January 2016 – Regulation 421.1.201 (PROTECTION AGAINST FIRE CAUSED BY ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT) comes into full effect.

If I am interpreting this correctly during the transition period between the 1st of Jan and the 1st of July you have the choice to either adopt the new regs for design and installation or you can stick with the previous regs (my bold highlighted above). The onus is therefore on you to decide which is either the most convenient or better practice. My feeling would be if there was an significant increased cost involved to meet the new requirements then I would stick to the old regs until I was required to change. Obviously the decision would be discussed with my client. But from experience they tend to go with the cheapest option. After all their first question would be "are the old regs safe to follow?" what would you answer? well of course you would reply with "yes, the new amendments are there to make improvements and are not necessarily related to safety."

Bottom line is it seems yes it would be good practice to follow the new regs where possible, but ultimately until they come into force on 1st July you have the option either way. But it is not clear about how you should go about installing installations designed prior to 1st July but possibly installed after that date. It does note though that if they are periodically tested there after they should comply with the new amended regs. This would imply that you may very well follow the previous regs for the installation but if it is inspected and tested after 1st of July then in will not comply with the new regs. So if you decide to follow the old regs for the design and installation but then did the IC after 1st of July then your new installation does not comply!!!! very confusing indeed!!

 

[Risteard]

But it is not clear about how you should go about installing installations designed prior to 1st July but possibly installed after that date.

It is perfectly clear, and always has been. How could you install or verify an installation to a different Standard than that to which it has been designed?

 

[Guest125]

It is perfectly clear, and always has been. How could you install or verify an installation to a different Standard than that to which it has been designed?

My problem with this is that if a periodic report were to be carried out a couple of months later it would be littered with C3 recommendations. I personally would want to avoid this and ammendment 3 will not take much effort to alter a design. Any designer worth their salt would be prepared and any installer signing the work off should be doing what they can to make the changes to the design forced through. If someone gave me a job designed an older version of the regs I would price to install that job to the current standard and make that clear in the quote. We get all our work from repeat custom and my clients would be least than impressed if we just said 'well it was designed that way'.

 

[Guest125]

Its a difficult one to call,

Implementation Dates:
1st January 2015 - The Third amendment to BS 7671:2008, The IET Wiring Regulations, became effective on this date. Following this, contractors have a six month transition period to get up to speed with the changes and can design, install and certify to either the new or previous standard.
1st July 2015 – From this date it is a requirement that all electrical installations designed and periodically inspected comply with the updated regulations. Contractors will be expected to hold a copy of BS 7671:2008, incorporating Amendment 3, for any assessment visit taking place after this date.
1st January 2016 – Regulation 421.1.201 (PROTECTION AGAINST FIRE CAUSED BY ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT) comes into full effect.

If I am interpreting this correctly during the transition period between the 1st of Jan and the 1st of July you have the choice to either adopt the new regs for design and installation or you can stick with the previous regs (my bold highlighted above). The onus is therefore on you to decide which is either the most convenient or better practice. My feeling would be if there was an significant increased cost involved to meet the new requirements then I would stick to the old regs until I was required to change. Obviously the decision would be discussed with my client. But from experience they tend to go with the cheapest option. After all their first question would be "are the old regs safe to follow?" what would you answer? well of course you would reply with "yes, the new amendments are there to make improvements and are not necessarily related to safety."

Bottom line is it seems yes it would be good practice to follow the new regs where possible, but ultimately until they come into force on 1st July you have the option either way. But it is not clear about how you should go about installing installations designed prior to 1st July but possibly installed after that date. It does note though that if they are periodically tested there after they should comply with the new amended regs. This would imply that you may very well follow the previous regs for the installation but if it is inspected and tested after 1st of July then in will not comply with the new regs. So if you decide to follow the old regs for the design and installation but then did the IC after 1st of July then your new installation does not comply!!!! very confusing indeed!!

I think you have hit the nail on the head and is exactly how I understand it. My interpretation is that if you installed to a previous reg after July it would be difficult to sign off and your certificate would be littered with deviations. My clients don't nessecary want the cheapest and it would be short lived come the next inspection when it is covered in C3 recommendations. They would not be pleased which is where I think we need to act responsible by installing to the new regs as of Jan 1st.

 

[davesparks]

My problem with this is that if a periodic report were to be carried out a couple of months later it would be littered with C3 recommendations. I personally would want to avoid this and ammendment 3 will not take much effort to alter a design. Any designer worth their salt would be prepared and any installer signing the work off should be doing what they can to make the changes to the design forced through. If someone gave me a job designed an older version of the regs I would price to install that job to the current standard and make that clear in the quote. We get all our work from repeat custom and my clients would be least than impressed if we just said 'well it was designed that way'.

Why would it be littered with C3s?

First line of the guidance for persons carrying out EICRs in the model forms in bs7671 tells us that you cannot code items purely because the regulations have changed since they were installed.

 

[Guest125]

Also if you say installed a plastic consumer unit in Feb would that be a C2 or a C3 in the next EICR. Also the same with escape routes with cables installed in such a way so they do not fall in the event of a fire.

 

[Plonker 3]

On a EIC there is a section which asks which version of BS7671 it is designed and installed too.

 

[Plonker 3]

Also if you say installed a plastic consumer unit in Feb would that be a C2 or a C3 in the next EICR. Also the same with escape routes with cables installed in such a way so they do not fall in the event of a fire.

You are talking about something which we dont even know is in the new amendment yet.

 

[davesparks]

Also if you say installed a plastic consumer unit in Feb would that be a C2 or a C3 in the next EICR. Also the same with escape routes with cables installed in such a way so they do not fall in the event of a fire.

Plastic CU, no code on the next EICR as complied at the time of installation.

Cables in escape routes, no code as complied at the time of installation.

The regulations are not retrospective.

 

[Guest125]

Why would it be littered with C3s?

First line of the guidance for persons carrying out EICRs in the model forms in bs7671 tells us that you cannot code items purely because the regulations have changed since they were installed.

for instance. The 16th edition you did not need to RCD protect circuits buried in a wall without earthed MP at less than 50mm. If you tested that installation today you would put that as a C3. Clearly it still obides to the 16th but things have moved on.