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I think this forum highlights a huge problem with the game. So many different interpretations.
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Oh yes, but I am trying to educate people.I think this forum highlights a huge problem with the game. So many different interpretations.
spark 68 ... you got there before me! However, do note that both standards can be used from 1 Jan 2015 up until 30 Jun 2015.
Well that's a ton up.....made your decision or put your reqqie in?has anyone pre ordered the new books yet and weres the cheapest place to get them was tempted to order mine on amazon £130 for the reqs,on site guide, gn3 your thoughts chaps
Oh yes, but I am trying to educate people.
Can only do so much.
Well that's a ton up.....made your decision or put your reqqie in?
Are we in agreement that after the 1st of July you should not be installing to the previous version? Regardless whether or not it is designed in December 2014.
But it is not clear about how you should go about installing installations designed prior to 1st July but possibly installed after that date.
It is perfectly clear, and always has been. How could you install or verify an installation to a different Standard than that to which it has been designed?
Its a difficult one to call,
Implementation Dates:
1st January 2015 - The Third amendment to BS 7671:2008, The IET Wiring Regulations, became effective on this date. Following this, contractors have a six month transition period to get up to speed with the changes and can design, install and certify to either the new or previous standard.
1st July 2015 – From this date it is a requirement that all electrical installations designed and periodically inspected comply with the updated regulations. Contractors will be expected to hold a copy of BS 7671:2008, incorporating Amendment 3, for any assessment visit taking place after this date.
1st January 2016 – Regulation 421.1.201 (PROTECTION AGAINST FIRE CAUSED BY ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT) comes into full effect.
If I am interpreting this correctly during the transition period between the 1st of Jan and the 1st of July you have the choice to either adopt the new regs for design and installation or you can stick with the previous regs (my bold highlighted above). The onus is therefore on you to decide which is either the most convenient or better practice. My feeling would be if there was an significant increased cost involved to meet the new requirements then I would stick to the old regs until I was required to change. Obviously the decision would be discussed with my client. But from experience they tend to go with the cheapest option. After all their first question would be "are the old regs safe to follow?" what would you answer? well of course you would reply with "yes, the new amendments are there to make improvements and are not necessarily related to safety."
Bottom line is it seems yes it would be good practice to follow the new regs where possible, but ultimately until they come into force on 1st July you have the option either way. But it is not clear about how you should go about installing installations designed prior to 1st July but possibly installed after that date. It does note though that if they are periodically tested there after they should comply with the new amended regs. This would imply that you may very well follow the previous regs for the installation but if it is inspected and tested after 1st of July then in will not comply with the new regs. So if you decide to follow the old regs for the design and installation but then did the IC after 1st of July then your new installation does not comply!!!! very confusing indeed!!
My problem with this is that if a periodic report were to be carried out a couple of months later it would be littered with C3 recommendations. I personally would want to avoid this and ammendment 3 will not take much effort to alter a design. Any designer worth their salt would be prepared and any installer signing the work off should be doing what they can to make the changes to the design forced through. If someone gave me a job designed an older version of the regs I would price to install that job to the current standard and make that clear in the quote. We get all our work from repeat custom and my clients would be least than impressed if we just said 'well it was designed that way'.
Also if you say installed a plastic consumer unit in Feb would that be a C2 or a C3 in the next EICR. Also the same with escape routes with cables installed in such a way so they do not fall in the event of a fire.
Also if you say installed a plastic consumer unit in Feb would that be a C2 or a C3 in the next EICR. Also the same with escape routes with cables installed in such a way so they do not fall in the event of a fire.
Why would it be littered with C3s?
First line of the guidance for persons carrying out EICRs in the model forms in bs7671 tells us that you cannot code items purely because the regulations have changed since they were installed.
Plastic CU, no code on the next EICR as complied at the time of installation.
Cables in escape routes, no code as complied at the time of installation.
The regulations are not retrospective.
for instance. The 16th edition you did not need to RCD protect circuits buried in a wall without earthed MP at less than 50mm. If you tested that installation today you would put that as a C3. Clearly it still obides to the 16th but things have moved on.
You are talking about something which we dont even know is in the new amendment yet.
I wouldn't put it as a C3 personally unless someone comes up with a good reason why it should be.
RCD protection only becomes necessary when you work on/alter the circuit.
OK. And if you could not verify when it was installed because the company has gone bust? The property has changed hands many times and now no one knows if it was December 2014 or July 2015. And be honest. Who checks anyway.
But surely this is what C3s are for. Telling the user it is satisfactory but not to current standards and we recommend improvement.
From the NICEIC:
[COLOR=rgb(32.941000%, 32.941000%, 34.510000%)]Code C3 (Improvement recommended)[/COLOR]
Observations that would usually warrant a Code C3classification include:
• Absence of RCD protection for a socket-outletthat is unlikely to supply portable or mobileequipment for use outdoors, does not serve alocation containing a bath or shower, and theuse of which is otherwise not considered by theinspector to result in potential danger.
(Note: Code C2 would apply if the circuitsupplied a socket-outlet in a locationcontaining a bath or shower in accordancewith Regulation 701.512.3)
RCD in a consumer unit
• Absence of RCD protection for cables installedat a depth of less than 50 mm from a surfaceof a wall or partition where the cables do notincorporate an earthed metallic covering, arenot enclosed in earthed metalwork, or are notmechanically protected against penetration bynails and the like
• Absence of RCD protection for circuits of alocation containing a bath or shower wheresatisfactory supplementary bonding is present
From the NICEIC:
[COLOR=rgb(32.941000%, 32.941000%, 34.510000%)]Code C3 (Improvement recommended)[/COLOR]
Observations that would usually warrant a Code C3classification include:
• Absence of RCD protection for a socket-outletthat is unlikely to supply portable or mobileequipment for use outdoors, does not serve alocation containing a bath or shower, and theuse of which is otherwise not considered by theinspector to result in potential danger.
(Note: Code C2 would apply if the circuitsupplied a socket-outlet in a locationcontaining a bath or shower in accordancewith Regulation 701.512.3)
RCD in a consumer unit
• Absence of RCD protection for cables installedat a depth of less than 50 mm from a surfaceof a wall or partition where the cables do notincorporate an earthed metallic covering, arenot enclosed in earthed metalwork, or are notmechanically protected against penetration bynails and the like
• Absence of RCD protection for circuits of alocation containing a bath or shower wheresatisfactory supplementary bonding is present
No, C3 is used to identify items which are recommended for improvement. Not for pointing out every minor non-compliance.
Would you give a C3 to an older installation which has green sleeving rather than green/yellow? Of course you wouldn't as it makes no difference to anything.
Would you give a C3 to an MET with a 'safety electrical earth' label instead of the current 'safety electrical connection' label? Again of course not, it again makes no practical difference.
You might as well give an automatic C3 to every installation containing the old wiring colours if you are going to code everything that isn't installed to current regs.
The NIC are well known for making up their own version of the regulations !
Neil, a word of advice, don't use the NICEIC as a reference source on here, because any credibility you've gained will go up in a puff of smoke!:smilielol5:
The rail industry has sworn by a lot of safety legislation that proved to have holes...Tebay,being a sad example.So give me an alternative then? Like it or not my industry (railways) swear by them.
Do you do many EICR's mate?Thanks for the advice. My clients will not even entertain a contractor without it. I have also been taught that way. When test you test to the current regs. You woukd not test a 40 year old installation and say it is all fine because that is when it was designed. I am really struggling to understand this train of thought and I strongly disagree with it.
Maybe you should contact the NICEIC and ask them about it, would be intresting to know what their take on it is.
Do you do many EICR's mate?
It is perfectly clear, and always has been. How could you install or verify an installation to a different Standard than that to which it has been designed?
Plastic CU, no code on the next EICR as complied at the time of installation.
Cables in escape routes, no code as complied at the time of installation.
The regulations are not retrospective.
I wouldn't put it as a C3 personally unless someone comes up with a good reason why it should be.
RCD protection only becomes necessary when you work on/alter the circuit.
I personally would C3 those items. Not the cables colours though unless a harmonization label was not installed.
They do not warrant a C3 code, item 1 in the below image explains all.
View attachment 27379View attachment 27379
Having one word wrong on a label or solid green sleeving are not in any way dangerous or able to give rise to danger.
But most old installations won't have a new colours label unless they contain both wiring colours.
Not aware that Network Rail require contractors to be registered with the NICEIC.
The fact that I'm not registered with the NICEIC, has not prevented me from working at various sites around London.
It appears that the quote that keeps getting copied and pasted is from one of the schemes, not from the IET. As such I would not place any value on the information.
Generally, I would apply a code C3, for instances where an installation complied at the time of it's design/construction, but does not comply with the current requirements.
For instance: cables concealed in walls without an acceptable method of additional protection, socket-outlets intended for general use by ordinary persons, circuits of a location containing a bath or shower, not provided with RCD protection, time delayed RCDs set to 5s, etc.
With instances where conductors have not been correctly identified, such as switch lines, where earth sleeving has been omitted or a lable indicating two colours of wiring are present, I would just rectify, and not bother applying a code.
I have never been registered with the NICEIC, and the last time I worked for Network Rail was at Paddington in January/February of this year.
Perhaps things have changed?
Is this a loaded question? Yes!!
What does the RISQS initials stand for??At risk of going off a bit. To gain RISQS (formally Link-Up) approval you will certainly require NICEIC membership. We have both.
They just love acronyms.
For the underground you need a LUCAS card, for Network Rail a PTS card.
Then there's the SPIC card, and a whole host of others
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