NICEIC Certification Scheme NICEIC Blackmail

[trev]

It is a qualification

No, it isn't. The EAL Domestic Installer's Certificate is a qualification (which is worthless as you stated) but Part P is part of the building regs.

Come, join me in Pedant's Corner.

 

[shanky887614]

No, it isn't. The EAL Domestic Installer's Certificate is a qualification (which is worthless as you stated) but Part P is part of the building regs.

Come, join me in Pedant's Corner.

So at best its a part qualification?

 

[Des 56]

I believe Biff is right,its the responsibility of the person having the work done to make sure the building regs are complied with,its not the spark doing the work,he is responsible for the standard of the work only

I think the only mention the Gov make about the subject is "It is assumed the tradesman will make the householder aware of the building regs"

Thats all just as well because we are sparks and not some sort of Government information agents

 

[GLENNSPARK]

You don't really get sarcasm and jokes do you mate?

eh?....

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It is a qualification, its worth nothing but is still a qualification

Still a useless bit of paper like most

no it `int....

 

[shanky887614]

eh?....

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no it `int....

So your saying its not a useless bit of paper?

 

[UNG]

Companies feel more comfortable if a contractor is an NIC member as it means someone is verifying there work complies with regulations and is to a high standard (or susposed to be (so hold your fire))

Or a fraction of a percent of it. You only have to look at the recent NIC blurb relating to the ratios of qualifying supervisors to see how work is monitored within large companies

Its the government of the day that organises Part P

The working man's party who were the government of the day in 2005 decided Part P was a good idea and saddled us with useless and unnecessary legislation which the NIC and others using some of the money paid to them are now underhandedly trying to reform to improve their stranglehold on the electrical industry and perpetuate the poor training that is a by product of their governance of the domestic sector
The problem now is whichever organisation you choose to go with they all seem to be joining forces to get the best deal they can from the government so they can continue their legalised rip off

 

[Geoffsd]

Part P is one of the Building Regulations (the law) and merely states that Electrical Work must be done safely and lists the premises to which it applies.
It is not a qualification.

The notification requirements are listed in the general parts of the Building Regulations - Part 3. 12. (6) with -

12. (1) This regulation applies to a person who intends to—

(a)​

carry out building work;

Whether you think that is the owner of the premise or the electrician could be argued.

Approved Document P is a guidance and has no legal standing.
Although it includes the relevant laws, the rest of it is not the law.

 

[trev]

eh?....

q. E. D.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

So your saying its not a useless bit of paper?

no thats not what i`m saying...and you know that n all

dont try to play me fella...or twist what i say....as i get very upset at those kind of tricks....and i`l end up makin you look a rite nob in here...

 

[High Tower]

Some interesting points!, some right, some not so!.

It always turns into a round of NIC bashing!, tbf it's getting a little boring!.

Operationally they are no better or worse than the others, the process for acceptance is robust and effective. They have a bigger and more effective name than the rest, that's never going to change.

Of all of the names and logos, NIC was the most identifiable probably after the old Corgi. But they have been around a lot longer.

Forget domestic, you can join any if the circus's for that, but the NIC has been the yard stick for years for commercial, before part p came about, it was the given measurement for those awarding commercial contracts, nothing had changed and like it or not that's still the way it is.

You want to work on these areas, you pay your money, get your recognition and get on with it!. Nothing much has changed

It's also fair to say, they are not much more expensive than their rivals, and the rivals open NO commercial doors. I pay my fee, I have my assessment every year or so. I do my job properly so he never finds much, we have a good chat and then they leave me be till next time.

 

[brizospark]

Some interesting points!, some right, some not so!.

It always turns into a round of NIC bashing!, tbf it's getting a little boring!.

Operationally they are no better or worse than the others, the process for acceptance is robust and effective. They have a bigger and more effective name than the rest, that's never going to change.

Of all of the names and logos, NIC was the most identifiable probably after the old Corgi. But they have been around a lot longer.

Forget domestic, you can join any if the circus's for that, but the NIC has been the yard stick for years for commercial, before part p came about, it was the given measurement for those awarding commercial contracts, nothing had changed and like it or not that's still the way it is.

You want to work on these areas, you pay your money, get your recognition and get on with it!. Nothing much has changed

Rubbish! The difference between NIC and CORGI/Gas Safe is that it is a legal requirement for gas engineers to be gas safe qualified to carry out work on gas pipes etc. the NIC and all the other schemes are self governed, profiteering leeches who are in no way affiliated with the IEEE, who electricians are legally required to adhere to

 

[High Tower]

Rubbish! The difference between NIC and CORGI/Gas Safe is that it is a legal requirement for gas engineers to be gas safe qualified to carry out work on gas pipes etc. the NIC and all the other schemes are self governed, profiteering leeches who are in no way affiliated with the IEEE, who electricians are legally required to adhere to

What has that got to do with any of what I have just said, I diddnt even mention gas safe as most domestic customers have no idea who they are. My point was that after probably only Corgi, the NIC is the next most publicly recognised brand in construction, I drew NO comparisons between the two.

 

[brizospark]

You mentioned CORGI, which is now Gas Safe, which is a legal requirement for gas engineers to be a member of in order to carry out work on gas installations. Councils/clients have a right to demand that gas engineers are members of gas safe. They do not however have the right to demand that electricians are members of NIC or the like because there are no legal requirements for the electrician to be a member of such a scheme to carry out electrical work. All this about NIC setting the benchmark what nonsense being a member of NIC does not make you a good spark. Demanding that sparks be a member of these schemes is bordering on infringement of human rights!

 

[High Tower]

You mentioned CORGI, which is now Gas Safe, which is a legal requirement for gas engineers to be a member of in order to carry out work on gas installations. Councils/clients have a right to demand that gas engineers are members of gas safe. They do not however have the right to demand that electricians are members of NIC or the like because there are no legal requirements for the electrician to be a member of such a scheme to carry out electrical work. All this about NIC setting the benchmark what nonsense being a member of NIC does not make you a good spark. Demanding that sparks be a member of these schemes is bordering on infringement of human rights!

Again nothing to do with what I was saying........again

Look up the term "brand awareness" on google, that's my point!

Oh and councils, specifiers, contracts managers etc can quite legally require you to be NIC without breaking any laws, if they are engaging you as a company they can ask you to be a Jedi knight or a magic prince if that's what takes their fancy

I've edited the swearing out of your post, you know the rules. Next time I will give you an infraction thanks.

 

[brizospark]

Again nothing to do with what I was saying........again

Look up the term "brand awareness" on google, that's my point!

Oh and councils, specifiers, contracts managers etc can quite legally require you to be NIC without breaking any laws, if they are engaging you as a company they can ask you to be a Jedi knight or a magic prince if that's what takes their fancy

I've edited the swearing out of your post, you know the rules. Next time I will give you an infraction thanks.

There was no swearing in my post! Councils do not have the right to refuse an electrical certificate because an electrician is not a member of a scheme

 

[brizospark]

Hightower judging by your posts you are obviously an NICEIC member. Are you happy with the product you receive for paying out £1000 every year? Or are you just happy to be getting the work because you are a member? This is my point sparks are getting their arms twisted to join. If the NICEIC didn't exist every electrical installation would still be completed without the need for how many £1000 each year out of sparks pockets. The JIB and HSE are in place for monitoring standards

 

[High Tower]

There was no swearing in my post! Councils do not have the right to refuse an electrical certificate because an electrician is not a member of a scheme

Yes there was, I've just edited it out, you won't be warned next time.

No the council can't refuse a proper bona fide cert, BUT if it's subject to a ongoing contract and the contact specifies ONLY NIC companies then yes they are well within their rights to refuse it

 

[High Tower]

Hightower judging by your posts you are obviously an NICEIC member. Are you happy with the product you receive for paying out £1000 every year? Or are you just happy to be getting the work because you are a member? This is my point sparks are getting their arms twisted to join. If the NICEIC didn't exist every electrical installation would still be completed without the need for how many £1000 each year out of sparks pockets. The JIB and HSE are in place for monitoring standards

Yes I am and it's more like £450 a year!. Not much more than the others.

As for the Jib I wouldn't give them the time of day, go to their HQ in Sidcup and they still are working in the dark ages, and my NIC reg has opened plenty of doors where my JIB card is nothing but hassle!.

The jib is not fit for purpose!

As for rough NIC sparks, yes there are some, there are also plenty of rough Napit, elecsa, apprentice trained sparks etc etc! There good and bad in all of them! A registration doesent make you a good spark, your either good or not

 

[UNG]

Had a similar thing many years ago doing security installations where NACOSS / NSI were always specified yet when challenged they backed down and accepted SSAIB as an equivalent

When I ran a company years ago that was NICEIC approved I was never asked what qualifications I had or asked to produce them they checked a few jobs ran through a few tests checked for the correct documentation ( insurance and regs etc) and left us alone for another year don't know if it's changed now

 

[brizospark]

Yes I am and it's more like £450 a year!. Not much more than the others.

As for the Jib I wouldn't give them the time of day, go to their HQ in Sidcup and they still are working in the dark ages, and my NIC reg has opened plenty of doors where my JIB card is nothing but hassle!.

The jib is not fit for purpose!

As for rough NIC sparks, yes there are some, there are also plenty of rough Napit, elecsa, apprentice trained sparks etc etc! There good and bad in all of them! A registration doesent make you a good spark, your either good or not

Well if you're quite happy for some has-been to come out with his briefcase and check up on your work and eat your digestives then fair play but it won't be me

 

[Engineer54]

I'm not going to get into this argument, all i will say as far as NICEIC goes, is that the NICEIC of today is not the same NICEIC it was of yesteryear. Compare and they will look like two completely different companies. They have ceased being the logo of ''Approved Contractor'' excellence in favour of increased membership and the inevitable money train.

 

[Octopus]

Organisations like the NICEIC are only interested in one thing - and that's lining their own pockets.

They do little or absolutely NOTHING for the hard working spark at the coal face, nor do anything about the cowboys.

Turkeys won't vote for Xmas

 

[High Tower]

I agree, but my point is, I pay my fee and I get on with it, it is what it is, I have enough to worry about on a daily basis

 

[Engineer54]

Organisations like the NICEIC are only interested in one thing - and that's lining their own pockets.

They do little or absolutely NOTHING for the hard working spark at the coal face, nor do anything about the cowboys.

Turkeys won't vote for Xmas

Why would they, when their core product is not much more than a Label of excellence, that's been paid for by the holder!! lol!!

 

[Octopus]

I agree, but my point is, I pay my fee and I get on with it, it is what it is, I have enough to worry about on a daily basis

Any fees need to be levelled "per" sparky, not per organisation. That's where we should be united.

 

[High Tower]

Any fees need to be levelled "per" sparky, not per organisation. That's where we should be united.

That does really rub me up, I live very close to the HQ of NG Baileys and it racks me off that they have the same inspection with the same engineer and pay the same fee as little ole me! I have to agree with you 100%

 

[Guest55]

Oh and councils, specifiers, contracts managers etc can quite legally require you to be NIC without breaking any laws, if they are engaging you as a company they can ask you to be a Jedi knight or a magic prince if that's what takes their fancy

well , not quite.
Your local council may insist on nic registered companies for tendering of their own contracts on their own buildings , but they cannot insist on the public the same brand preference without breaking many EU fair trade / business competition regulations.

and its the later point which the LABC's over step the mark , both regulary & illegally ,
and as such is the core issue of the OP's thread.

My advice to anyone in napit or elecsa whom feel they are excluded unfairly should contact their schemes legal team and ask for direct support of your behalf.

and they will , in fact they have no choice to as if they refuse , they are basically saying theyre not prepared back thier own brand against the competition , which is business suicide.

 

[Guest55]

Yes I am and it's more like £450 a year!. Not much more than the others.

As for the Jib I wouldn't give them the time of day, go to their HQ in Sidcup and they still are working in the dark ages, and my NIC reg has opened plenty of doors where my JIB card is nothing but hassle!.

The jib is not fit for purpose!

and why is that ?

from where im stood the jib is the only club that you cant buy your way into.
and at £24 for 3 years membership its decidedly better value.

 

[High Tower]

and why is that ?

from where im stood the jib is the only club that you cant buy your way into.
and at £24 for 3 years membership its decidedly better value.

There inability to answer simple enquiries or turn anything around in a timely manner,

Visit them at Sidcup and it's like a trip back to the dark ages!

I like the principles and concept it's the delivery they lack in!

 

[shanky887614]

There inability to answer simple enquiries or turn anything around in a timely manner,

Visit them at Sidcup and it's like a trip back to the dark ages!

I like the principles and concept it's the delivery they lack in!

As much as we all moan about them.

There a lot cheaper than labc in a lot of cases

 

[brizospark]

The JIB are not there to answer your enquiries. As a qualified electrician you should have access to the most recent regs books and several other pieces of literature to work the answer out for yourself

 

[brizospark]

I'm going to start my own organisation and monitor milk suppliers. I will make my living from visiting all the different dairy farms in the country and make sure they are adhering to standards that have been put in place by the food standards agency and make sure these dairy farmers are complying with rules they are already aware of. My plan is to then approach the supermarkets and manipulate them into strictly buying from dairy farmers which are registered in my scheme. Of course there will be an extortionate fee for these dairy farmers to be part of my scheme and it will provide me with a good living. It doesn't matter that i will be taking a cut of their hard earned profits, they need the supermarkets so they will have no option but to join.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

i am NIC registered....but that doesn`t mean i like the current setup..

Damian has told me as well that there are plenty within the NIC that feel the same about the racketeering

 

[GLENNSPARK]

The JIB are not there to answer your enquiries. As a qualified electrician you should have access to the most recent regs books and several other pieces of literature to work the answer out for yourself

same as this forum..

Electrical Trainee and unskilled/incompetant/unqualified jobeys coming in here take note...

 

[High Tower]

The JIB are not there to answer your enquiries. As a qualified electrician you should have access to the most recent regs books and several other pieces of literature to work the answer out for yourself

Please do not patronise me, I'm qualified to my eyeballs, have all the relevant publications, quite the library in fact, enquires made were such as "where is my card", "when are the next ECS tests for the lads"

You only have to look at them as a organisation to see that they have been left behind by the movement of time

 

[brizospark]

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]The insistence on using NIC only could be construed as a restraint of trade under law, especially if this insistence is made a precondition of contract[/FONT]

 

[Octopus]

That does really rub me up, I live very close to the HQ of NG Baileys and it racks me off that they have the same inspection with the same engineer and pay the same fee as little ole me! I have to agree with you 100%

So we have agreement where to start then.

This is how we should focus our anger.....

I suspect the majority of people unhappy about the fees are the Sole Traders like me.

 

[R G]

i am NIC registered....but that doesn`t mean i like the current setup..

Damian has told me as well that there are plenty within the NIC that feel the same about the racketeering

The NIC should have stuck to what they used to do , offer only 1 scheme approved contractor and thats it , with domestic installer status included .
the domestic installer route they have gone down has made them more sell sell , and now offer D/I courses , I think many who have been with them some time feel that its all gone down the pan,,,

 

[brizospark]

Please do not patronise me, I'm qualified to my eyeballs, have all the relevant publications, quite the library in fact, enquires made were such as "where is my card", "when are the next ECS tests for the lads"

You only have to look at them as a organisation to see that they have been left behind by the movement of time

This is completely irrelevant to the OP. NICEIC, although they would love to be, are not involved in grading cards. I am not saying that the JIB are run like a well oiled machine but what I am implying is that there is absolutely no place for organisations such as the NICEIC. They are an unnecessary middle man between electricians and the end product. I have to admit that their marketing and manipulation talents are second to none.

I have no doubt that you are well qualified and have a lot of literature. To be honest it just disappoints me that there are sparks out there like yourself who are supporting the NICEIC while there are others who rightfully make a stand against these leeches

 

[Engineer54]

Again i won't get involved in the present argument, save to say, that at this moment in time the JIB/SJIB, are the ONLY organisation where you will not find a single electrical trainee 17 Whizz Kidd on the books.
Yes the JIB have many problems, but at least they do have a sound and recognised route and recognised standards for qualified electricians and upholds those standards...

So credit where credits due!! lol!!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

The NIC should have stuck to what they used to do , offer only 1 scheme approved contractor and thats it , with domestic installer status included .
the domestic installer route they have gone down has made them more sell sell , and now offer D/I courses , I think many who have been with them some time feel that its all gone down the pan,,,

well i`m AC anyway...so i dont care about their `domestic installer` rubbish....and i`m still rackin my brains at what a `domestic installer` is supposed to be

 

[High Tower]

This is completely irrelevant to the OP. NICEIC, although they would love to be, are not involved in grading cards. I am not saying that the JIB are run like a well oiled machine but what I am implying is that there is absolutely no place for organisations such as the NICEIC. They are an unnecessary middle man between electricians and the end product. I have to admit that their marketing and manipulation talents are second to none.

I have no doubt that you are well qualified and have a lot of literature. To be honest it just disappoints me that there are sparks out there like yourself who are supporting the NICEIC while there are others who rightfully make a stand against these leeches

I don't support them but, I want to work in certain sectors, so I pay my money, jump through my hoops and put my tender in! It's not ideal but I'd rather this than sitting at home skint with my ideals intact!.


Yea the insistence does bar some good non NIC contractors from certain works but it also serves to keep the total chancers away from the better work

 

[R G]

Again i won't get involved in the present argument, save to say, that at this moment in time the JIB/SJIB, are the ONLY organisation where you will not find a single electrical trainee 17 Whizz Kidd on the books.
Yes the JIB have many problems, but at least they do have a sound and recognised route and recognised standards for qualified electricians and upholds those standards...

So credit where credits due!! lol!!

Totally agree , the JIB have not kept up with the times and needs updating , but what else is there that looks at the qualifications , we need a scheme with qualifications and licensing combined , If the JIB is brought right up to date with the likes of what the NIC used to be combined that would help all true sparks

 

[GLENNSPARK]

So we have agreement where to start then.

This is how we should focus our anger.....

I suspect the majority of people unhappy about the fees are the Sole Traders like me.

its anyone who feels their getting a tanned arse every year courtesy of them Murdoch......

or feel they are getting `left out`....just because they didn`t pay into the NIC luncheon club...so cant sit at the council work table so to speak...

 

[GLENNSPARK]

I don't support them but, I want to work in certain sectors, so I pay my money, jump through my hoops and put my tender in! It's not ideal but I'd rather this than sitting at home skint with my ideals intact!.


Yea the insistence does bar some good non NIC contractors from certain works but it also serves to keep the total chancers away from the better work

well...this is pretty much what the council guy in the markets was saying Aiden....

still denying perfectly competant folks from getting a crust though...isn`t it...

and its wrong....

 

[brizospark]

HT you are supporting them by paying your fee every year, you are contributing to a group of thieves bar lunches. OK you may bit the bullet and join because it benefits you but where are your principles and thought for the other sparks who simply cannot afford to fund this each year

 

[Plonker 3]

Following on from what has been said, does the figure banded around of next to no people being removed from CPS, does this include NICEIE approved contractors too?

 

[High Tower]

HT you are supporting them by paying your fee every year, you are contributing to a group of thieves bar lunches. OK you may bit the bullet and join because it benefits you but where are your principles and thought for the other sparks who simply cannot afford to fund this each year

It's not a case of if sparks can afford it, if your bidding for such contracts then you should be a solvent company, be it ltd or sole trader, so it's a business decision, pay your fees and carry out the work, or don't and find work in a different sector!.

I agree with most the sentiments, and I'm not keen on the cash cow!, but if it becomes open shop then suddenly Barry from the pub can get involved in some of the good works. Yes I believe that such works should be opened to other schemes, but the problem is, the others are not commercial orientated, so only assess on domestic.

 

[Plonker 3]

But surly you get the job based on ability not because you pay a third party to be allowed to bid on it?

 

[brizospark]

High tower you have been completely roped in. Sparks were trading just fine before the nic evolved