No RCD in place..

[dancematic66]

Hi all,

I have a question for you regarding UK law and RCD protection on radial circuits in a domestic property.

My mother lives in a council owned house which was converted from an old TB hospital in the 1960s.

All circuits in the property are radial not ring.

The property wiring is pre 1970s and the consumer unit for the house consists of two old style 6A fuses (upstairs & downstairs lighting) and two 32A MCBs (cooker circuit & radial circuit which covers both floors).

Recently the council carried out electrical work on the building (installation of PIR LED lighting & smoke detectors). They installed a new consumer unit labelled 'Landlord's Supply' and all four circuits are controlled by RCBOs...

Also the other 5 properties in the complex do not have any RCD protection on their circuits.

What do you guys make of this, as I am not a qualified electrician I am not aware of current regulations.

Many thanks for your help,

Michael.

 

[i=p/u]

Not ideal but better than was . Did the bond water and gas supplies??

 

[dancematic66]

Hi i=p/u,

Maybe my post is confusing.

No work has been carried out to the tenant's supplies, none of them have any RCD protection however the council carried out their own work and installed RCBOs on the newly created circuits.

 

[Plonker 3]

When any work is carried out, only the new installation has to comply with current regs.

There is no need to alter the whole installation if it is not being worked on.

 

[dancematic66]

Hi dilib,

So even though the council own the property they do not have to bring old circuits up to regs if they have not carried out any work on them?

I believe it was the council who installed the two 32A MCBs a few years ago and also a few days ago they earthed some metal conduits within the property.

Would that work deem them responsible to bring it up to regs?

What about from a safety aspect?

Thanks,

Michael.

 

[Plonker 3]

How long ago were the 32 amps MCBs fitted it is only since 2008 that sockets in domestic dwellings have to be RCD/RCBO protected so if it was before this then there is no need to have it done retrospectively.

As I said they don't have to provide RCD protection for anything exisiting just what work they carry on any circuit. Earthing conduits is certainly no reason to do this neither.

Should you have any doubt about it maybe contact the council and raise your concern with them.

 

[Engineer54]

Are the other 5 properties also council owned, or are they privately owned??

 

[dancematic66]

Hi Dilib,

Thanks for your reply, I thought as much!

We have contacted the council, electricians are visiting tomorrow at 9.30am.

Surely they have to install RCDs on circuits for safety if it is in the new edition though? Regardless of work carried out or not just on a safety basis??

@Engineer54 & everyone else: 4 properties are council owned, 2 are privately owned (previously council owned).

 

[ackbarthestar]

Its also a question of relative priorities.

Domestic electrical supplies have been in existence for 120 years, RCBOs have been around for 10 years. On the other hand RCDs or methods of detecting residual currents and voltage rises on earthing systems have been in existence from the 1920s

Fault protection seemed to work pretty well as long as the DIYers kept their fingers out of the pie.

There is, of course, the changes in utilization but i can't see how you need to bother with that.

 

[Plonker 3]

Surely they have to install RCDs on circuits for safety if it is in the new edition though? Regardless of work carried out or not just on a safety basis??

Not at all like all building regulations they don't have to be applied retrospectively.

 

[Octopus]

Hi Dilib,

Thanks for your reply, I thought as much!

We have contacted the council, electricians are visiting tomorrow at 9.30am.

Surely they have to install RCDs on circuits for safety if it is in the new edition though? Regardless of work carried out or not just on a safety basis??

@Engineer54 & everyone else: 4 properties are council owned, 2 are privately owned (previously council owned).

If only this was the legal requirement and everybody stuck to it, but sadly not and from what you've outlined there is no requirement to install RCD's at the cost to the tax payer in your mothers home. If however she wants/needs additional sockets then this changes along with additional checks/requirements.

 

[dancematic66]

Why the necessity to drop in comment's like 'at the cost to the taxpayer'?

My mother is a teacher and pays her taxes as do I.

Sorry but that read as though it was a bit of a dig..

 

[Octopus]

Why the necessity to drop in comment's like 'at the cost to the taxpayer'?

My mother is a teacher and pays her taxes as do I.

Sorry but that read as though it was a bit of a dig..

You are the one that stated it was a Council house and are expecting them to do something. As a teacher I'm sure your mum has means to pay herself.

 

[chrish_1977]

I do upgrades on council houses and as previously stated by other guys, you don't have to install an rcd unless you work on the circuit, or the scope from the council dictates it. As said the regs are not retrospective so only new stuff must comply, otherwise there are slot of properties that don't comply. Also I'm pretty sure the last time I looked that the regs weren't law. If it was there would be a lot of joe public locked up for tinkering with electrics

 

[dancematic66]

I do upgrades on council houses and as previously stated by other guys, you don't have to install an rcd unless you work on the circuit, or the scope from the council dictates it. As said the regs are not retrospective so only new stuff must comply, otherwise there are slot of properties that don't comply. Also I'm pretty sure the last time I looked that the regs weren't law. If it was there would be a lot of joe public locked up for tinkering with electrics

Thanks everyone for your help!

If the regs aren't enforceable by law then isn't it pointless having them?


[Murdoch, your comment was unnecessary. Regardless of council property this topic has no place for references about taxpayers money.]

 

[Octopus]

If the regs aren't enforceable by law then isn't it pointless having them?

Think of them as a framework by which the vast majority of sparkies work to to uphold best practive, standards and safety.

 

[dancematic66]

Yep, I knew that was the reason behind having them.

My question was quite blunt!

If a qualified electrician for instance, didn't follow regulations installing RCD protection on a ring circuit in a new development and someone died as a result of a lethal shock. Would the electrician be held accountable and the non guidance of regs be used against him in a court of law?

 

[Octopus]

Yep, I knew that was the reason behind having them.

My question was quite blunt!

If a qualified electrician for instance, didn't follow regulations installing RCD protection on a ring circuit in a new development and someone died as a result of a lethal shock. Would the electrician be held accountable and the non guidance of regs be used against him in a court of law?

Yes and yes.

 

[markc123]

as a sparks you're guilty until proven innocent in a court of law, so yes the sparks would get charged with manslaughter and serve time.

 

[dancematic66]

Understood!

 

[Sintra]

More than likely although there are still circumstances even on new installations were a socket circuit does not need RCD protection. Remember in TN systems the RCD is only there for additional protection. RCD's are not the be all and end all, do you know how many would fail proper testing.

Back to your op, so long as the installation complied to the version of BS 7671 in place at that time and is still in a serviceable condition then there is no need to upgrade.

 

[dancematic66]

Hi Sintra,

My knowledge is not enough to understand your post, please could you explain to me?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Some sockets do not require RCD protection.
Older versions of the Regulations (BS7671) did not require RCD protection to the same extent as the current version.
AS such if an installation complied at the time of construction with the version of the Regulations in force at that time, there is no requirement for the installation to be upgraded.

 

[chrish_1977]

Back to your op, so long as the installation complied to the version of BS 7671 in place at that time and is still in a serviceable condition then there is no need to upgrade.[/QUOTE]

The regs are non statutory but can be used in a court of law. And as I said not retrospective. So as above if it complies to the regs when installed then you can't then tell a customer that its not safe now as it doesn't meet the current regs, so now you have to spend £700 to bring it up to the current standard as a whole.

 

[chrish_1977]

I would think that you try and stop making a mountain out of a mole hill ( sorry if I sound blunt, but you seem to have a little bit of knowledge, which is sometimes a dangerous thing)

 

[Octopus]

I would think that you try and stop making a mountain out of a mole hill ( sorry if I sound blunt, but you seem to have a little bit of knowledge, which is sometimes a dangerous thing)

Look at some of his other posts.

 

[chrish_1977]

My posts?

 

[dancematic66]

No offence taken, true, I do have some knowledge of electrical practices and basic theory.

I am not a qualified electrician or consider myself to be any where near the level of someone who has studied in the field, hence the reason why I am asking you all so many questions.

The whole point of this thread was to help me understand the legality and working practice behind electrical regulations.

Now I understand a lot more than I did 5 hours ago!

Murdoch what is your problem mate?

Is this not a place where people like myself can come to ask advice from professionals or is it some clique club where if you don't fit in sly comment's and digs are made at you? Grow up!

 

[dancematic66]

@Sintra, Chrish & Spinlondon, thanks I now understand that work complying with older regs at the time of installation do not have to be brought up to standard with newer regs unless work is carried out to the installation.

I guess if every installation did have to be brought up to standard then there would be a hell of a lot of work needed!

 

[chrish_1977]

Look at some of his other posts.

Have done nuff said

 

[chrish_1977]

@Sintra, Chrish & Spinlondon, thanks I now understand that work complying with older regs at the time of installation do not have to be brought up to standard with newer regs unless work is carried out to the installation.

I guess if every installation did have to be brought up to standard then there would be a hell of a lot of work needed!

Exactly. As long as its still safe as per the regs it was installed by then all good if not needs bringing up to current regs

dont take the replies the wrong way. Just lots of people come on here thinking they can be sparks and do the job themselves or can argue about regs with a good spark. Normally apprentices do that

 

[dancematic66]

I didn't take your's the wrong way Chrish, Murdoch's however I have.

I understand exactly what you are saying, I am inexperienced and whenever I do electrical work in my job I do so in as safe a way as I know possible, not like these people that you talk of.

It may seem like I'm arguing but believe me that is not my intended way to come across, I am merely trying to gain a clear understanding!

 

[dancematic66]

What I don't understand is what is wrong with my previous posts?

Am I fitting into some sort of stereotype/category that you have on these forums?

 

[Octopus]

I didn't take your's the wrong way Chrish, Murdoch's however I have.

Spell if out matey..,....

 

[chrish_1977]

What I don't understand is what is wrong with my previous posts?

Am I fitting into some sort of stereotype/category that you have on these forums?

Not a stereotype. More like my post a little bit of knowledge and all that, you can only find out so much from websites, google etc. if you are ever in any doubt get an expert in, being in exhibitions you should know that. I also worked building stands and i cant imagine touching electrics whatever voltage without being trained

 

[Guest55]

as a sparks you're guilty until proven innocent in a court of law, so yes the sparks would get charged with manslaughter and serve time.

you might want to re-think that post through before i troll the crap out of it.

 

[chrish_1977]

you might want to re-think that post through before i troll the crap out of it.

Ha ha ha

 

[dancematic66]

Not a stereotype. More like my post a little bit of knowledge and all that, you can only find out so much from websites, google etc. if you are ever in any doubt get an expert in, being in exhibitions you should know that. I also worked building stands and i cant imagine touching electrics whatever voltage without being trained

Yes you are right I can't deny this.

However I know that what I do is safe, despite having no formal qualifications.

I know this just further illustrates your point about little knowledge, no training but I have self taught myself to a certain degree and my work only comprises of essentially creating and running extension cables around our booths.

I never delve outside of my area of knowledge and if I am unsure, I do always ask someone else, namely a professional!

We use safe connection methods (Wieland Gesis), everything is earthed, fused adequately, the supply is provided by the electrical contractor for the event etc.. After 6 years doing this I am still alive (So far..)

Look now I am trying to justify myself..

 

[telectrix]

dance, the nearest analogy i can make is with cars. cars 1st regbistered before a certain date , in 1965, i think , did not require seat belts. they do not have to have them retro fitted now. same with RCDs. if they were not required by the regs. when the installation was put in, then they don't need them fitting now. although in both cases, the car and the electrical installation would be safer.

 

[chrish_1977]

And don't forget passenger wing mirrors, reverse lights. I was a mechanic before seeing the light and becoming a spark

 

[dancematic66]

How long ago were the 32 amps MCBs fitted it is only since 2008 that sockets in domestic dwellings have to be RCD/RCBO protected so if it was before this then there is no need to have it done retrospectively.

As I said they don't have to provide RCD protection for anything exisiting just what work they carry on any circuit. Earthing conduits is certainly no reason to do this neither.

Should you have any doubt about it maybe contact the council and raise your concern with them.

Hi all,

I forgot to mention at the beginning of this thread that recently the council added a fused spur to the radial circuit in my Mother's property.

Would this addition to the circuit make them now responsible for the circuit and adding an RCD to it or is the work negligible in this circumstance, like the afore mentioned earthing of the metal conduit?

Thanks,

Michael.

(I know someone has already stated about making a mountain out of a molehill but last week my sister and I received a shock from the unearthed metal conduit it wasn't 230V but we would still feel safer with an RCD in place. If the council won't do it then we will buy one ourselves and employ an electrician to install it for us!)

 

[Deleted member 26818]

A fused spur does not require RCD protection.
It is only some sockets that require RCD protection.
However the cables if they are concealed in a wall at a depth less than 50mm may well require RCD protection.
How has the fused spur been wired, are the cables concealed in the wall, or are they in trunking on the surface?
No they would not be responsible for the circuit unless it is in a bath or shower room.
They would only be responsible for the new cables.
Not to say, that it may be easier to provide RCD protection for the circuit rather than just the new cables (if required).

 

[dancematic66]

A fused spur does not require RCD protection.
It is only some sockets that require RCD protection.
However the cables if they are concealed in a wall at a depth less than 50mm may well require RCD protection.
How has the fused spur been wired, are the cables concealed in the wall, or are they in trunking on the surface?
No they would not be responsible for the circuit unless it is in a bath or shower room.
They would only be responsible for the new cables.
Not to say, that it may be easier to provide RCD protection for the circuit rather than just the new cables (if required).

Hi spin,

Thanks for clarifying!

The fused spur is a switchable wall mounted box which has been mounted above an already existing wall mounted twin gang socket.

The fused spur wiring leaves the switchable spur box and is contained within metal conduit which runs to the ceiling.

3/4 of the way up the conduit the spur wiring exits to the exterior of the property and runs to an outside PIR light.

Also contained in the conduit is the existing wiring of the radial circuit which runs to the 1st floor sockets.

This hasn't been altered, only in as much as it has been disconnected from the double gang socket in order for the metal conduit to be installed (It's new conduit).

 

[dancematic66]

The socket/spur are located in the kitchen within 1000mm of the sink.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Cables that are concealed in walls require additional protection.
The options are:
To bury the cables at a depth greater than 50mm.
To use a cable which incorporates an earthed sheath.
To install the cables in earthed conduit or trunking.
To provide mechanical protection sufficient to prevent penetration by screws or nails.
To run the cables in prescribed zones and provide 30mA RCD protection.
By using the earthed conduit, they are very likely covering two of the available options.
There is no minimum distance for a socket or accessory to be from a sink in a kitchen.
It is widely recomended that it be at least 300mm, either horizontally or vertically from the sink (ignore the drainer) part, or basin.

 

[Plonker 3]

Hi spin,

Thanks for clarifying!

The fused spur is a switchable wall mounted box which has been mounted above an already existing wall mounted twin gang socket.

The fused spur wiring leaves the switchable spur box and is contained within metal conduit which runs to the ceiling.

3/4 of the way up the conduit the spur wiring exits to the exterior of the property and runs to an outside PIR light.

Also contained in the conduit is the existing wiring of the radial circuit which runs to the 1st floor sockets.

This hasn't been altered, only in as much as it has been disconnected from the double gang socket in order for the metal conduit to be installed (It's new conduit).

What have you done about the conduit you got a electric shhock off? Did you report it too HSE?

If you are that concerned about your mothers electeics in her flat I would recomend getting EICR carried out at your own cost and then present it too the council should any code 1 or 2s be on it for them to repair.

 

[MDJ]

However I know that what I do is safe, despite having no formal qualifications.

I agree I Always wear a condom too :rolleyes2:


JK, good man, glad your careful.

 

[Sintra]

Hi all,

I forgot to mention at the beginning of this thread that recently the council added a fused spur to the radial circuit in my Mother's property.

Would this addition to the circuit make them now responsible for the circuit and adding an RCD to it or is the work negligible in this circumstance, like the afore mentioned earthing of the metal conduit?

Thanks,

Michael.

(I know someone has already stated about making a mountain out of a molehill but last week my sister and I received a shock from the unearthed metal conduit it wasn't 230V but we would still feel safer with an RCD in place. If the council won't do it then we will buy one ourselves and employ an electrician to install it for us!)

How do you know the conduit is unearthed. It could be that it is earthed and that it is discharging static from your body.

 

[Octopus]

There are mountains and there are mole hills.

 

[UNG]

There are mountains and there are mole hills.

And plenty of trees to bark up