No sign of any earthing in newly installed kitchen... Please Help!

[quinlivanb]

Hey Guys! I'm not an electrician by trade but I need some advice on what seems like a serious safety issue.

Recently bought a flat in an old ex-council building and had a builder in to gut and rebuild the place. He says he got an electrician in to do the work in the kitchen but I have some serious issues with the quality of the work.

Last night when using the dish washer I got a shock when my hands came in contact with the case of the dish-washer (metal) and the kitchen sink (stainless). I was worried by this and assumed it must be an earthing issue so I pulled out some of the new kitchen to take a look.

I found that all the new electrical work in the kitchen was connected to the older system at a single point point and has no earthing connected at all. Please see pictures. Earthing was connected to all the plugs in the kitchen but as you can see the earth wire doesn't go anywhere. My builder says that they just rewired things the way they found it but I was very surprised that he didn't even mention this issue to me. I only found out after getting a shock.

I assume the shock I got was an induced current in the earth wires being grounded via the kitchen sink and the cold water pipe?

When we hired the builder he assured us that all work would be carried out by registered trades-people as we indeed to use this property as a rental and will need all the certificates that go along with this!

I need some advice on this issue. Not worried about the cost of fixing it but just want to get someone in that we can trust.

 

[Darkwood]

Welcome to the forum quinlivanb, I have approved your post so you can get feedback, you may find you are given DIY status when admin is next online and the thread maybe relocated, this will not effect any posting already made

In reply - It looks like you have been conned on the Electrics and left with a somewhat dangerous installation, regardless how the so called Electrician found it, all his work has to meet and comply to the 17th edition Amendment 3 BS7671 regulations... it is clear this is not the case and somewhat of a complete mess with major safety concern.

I would get an independent company in to do a full inspection on the electrics and use the results as you evidence to threaten said builders with legal action to cover the costs of all work required to rectify and make good the installation. Express after getting independent advice on the condition of the 'new electrics' you have lost faith in the ability of the said company to provide anyone to do the work to the required standards, I would also ensure you do all correspondance through Email if possible so you have evidence of the discussions.

I cannot say the builder is at fault here as he may genuinely believe he hired a competent electrician but its clear this was not done by an Electrician.

If you have not yet paid for the work then hold the money back and tell them you are taking legal action (depending on the findings of your independent electrical report).

I personally wouldn't let this company back into the premises looking at the quality of work you have shown :sad3:

 

[Marvo]

Yeah the wiring in the photos is atrocious, there's no excuse in the world for leaving it like this plus there's no way the circuits could have passed the required tests.

Was any paperwork issued for the work the electrician did?
Is the electrician a member of an electrical scheme?

You could lodge a complaint with his scheme if he is or maybe trading standards if he isn't, maybe one of the UK members will give better advice on how to go about this.

Getting a shock usually is the result of more than one fault so just reconnecting the earth wires isn't sufficient so you're going to need a decent local sparky to test and remedy the problems. If you can post a more accurate location maybe one of the forum members would be interested in assisting.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

If the original wiring is in steel conduit, and those unsheathed red and black cables are single conduit cables, then the point at which they have broken in to the ring to add the new sockets might have been entirely satisfactory and properly earthed. It might therefore not be too difficult to make safe, if you can get at that point to pick the earth up, but as per the above wise posts I wouldn't take anything for granted because of the blatant ignorance or disregard shown by the 'installer'. I guess they wouldn't have understood that ring final circuits and 13A socket outlets have always been required to be earthed, no exceptions.

Truly mind-boggling!

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Worth pointing out here that whoever carried out this work has broken the law as it is domestic premises and comes under part P. If it was left in a dangerous condition and resulted in electric shocks there are grounds for prosecution.

 

[LankyWill]

The installers moral compass is F*****. Its sad to see how paying customers get treated. If it was me i would want heads on the line... Get a qualified electrician in asap to either make safe temporarily and then go about getting your money and a properly functioning electrical system back. Good luck.

 

[Andy78]

Wow that's truly horrific !
Whoever you paid for this needs to foot the bill to have this put right, no ifs, no buts. This is a trading standards issue if I ever saw one. Also a complaint needs to be fired off at the scheme that the electrician belongs to, if they are in one.
I'm guessing no certificates were issued with this work ?
As Darkwood says, get an independent inspection/survey/report and use this as the basis of legal action. You should not have to pay a penny more to get this sorted, and this sort of carry on needs to be stopped. Drag whoever over the coals for doing this !

 

[7029 dave]

IMO the builder got the guy in, he should take some responsibility, and get it rectified. Did you pay the builder for the electrical work or the cowboy.?

 

[Pete999]

Looks like you have a cowboy builder in tow mate, sorry I feel you have been had

 

[Dave OCD]

It's hard to believe than anyone could do something like that and walk away, atrocious and extremely dangerous - apart from the complete lack of earthing the junction box is without doubt a lighting one and the terminals won't take the current of a ring circuit [not for long anyway] - particularly in a kitchen where the majority of the load usually is. I'd be suspicious that the builder or one of his workers did this and charged for the phantom 'electrician' - it needs switching off until properly sorted by a decent sparks.

 

[Johnuk]

oh my god that is bad

 

[telectrix]

bad? it's diabollockall.

 

[Pete999]

What he said

 

[Dave OCD]

If the original wiring is in steel conduit, and those unsheathed red and black cables are single conduit cables, then the point at which they have broken in to the ring to add the new sockets might have been entirely satisfactory and properly earthed. It might therefore not be too difficult to make safe, if you can get at that point to pick the earth up, but as per the above wise posts I wouldn't take anything for granted because of the blatant ignorance or disregard shown by the 'installer'. I guess they wouldn't have understood that ring final circuits and 13A socket outlets have always been required to be earthed, no exceptions.

Truly mind-boggling!

I wouldn't be surprised if the CPCs were all cut off in the socket boxes too.

 

[Hellmooth]

Utter joke, similar happened on a recent job of mine, new spots had been fitted in the kitchen and dining rooms, all the earths had been cut before they entered the junction boxes.........obviously no testing been done!

 

[richy3333]

bad? it's diabollockall.

Your spolling is diabolical

 

[telectrix]

twas in tent shunall.

 

[Octopus]

One letter to the builder, a copy of the letter and a covering letter to trading standards.

You need names of individuals and certificates.

A shambles - out of interest was the builder a UK person?

 

[quinlivanb]

Thanks to everyone for the replies! I have booked my own qualified electrician to come and sort this out tomorrow morning. It's really great to hear that those of you in the know agree that the work is substandard. I will post back tomorrow and let you know what my electrician thinks of the situation!

After talking to my builder this evening it came out this 'his electrician' doing the work was in fact himself!

Pity the renovation of the flat has just been finished and we will most likely need to run new wires :-/ On the upside I still owe him £700 which should hopefully cover the cost of the new work... better get someone in to double check the gas and plumbing too!!

Thanks guys!

 

[Andy78]

Thanks to everyone for the replies! I have booked my own qualified electrician to come and sort this out tomorrow morning. It's really great to hear that those of you in the know agree that the work is substandard. I will post back tomorrow and let you know what my electrician thinks of the situation!

After talking to my builder this evening it came out this 'his electrician' doing the work was in fact himself!

Pity the renovation of the flat has just been finished and we will most likely need to run new wires :-/ On the upside I still owe him £700 which should hopefully cover the cost of the new work... better get someone in to double check the gas and plumbing too!!

Thanks guys!

There should be no hoping about anything. Your attitude should be that he WILL be paying for all rectification work regardless of cost.

 

[Marvo]

I'd start with a full test report from the electrician and plan the best way to remedy the installation then I'd be exploring legal action against the builder or a report to trading standards as an option. Any builder who leaves an installation like this is deliberately and knowingly compromising his customers safety purely for his own personal profit. If you just let it slide you won't be doing any of his future customers any favours.

 

[hightower]

Agree with Marvo. You were savvy enough to spot the issues, the next person might not be. You've got to push this all the way and make sure this guy isn't going to kill some little old dear or God forbid a child.

 

[Simonslimline]

I'd start with a full test report from the electrician and plan the best way to remedy the installation then I'd be exploring legal action against the builder or a report to trading standards as an option. Any builder who leaves an installation like this is deliberately and knowingly compromising his customers safety purely for his own personal profit. If you just let it slide you won't be doing any of his future customers any favours.

Totally agree with you on this.

This "Builder" needs a sharp wake up call. The work this absolute muppet has attempted to carry out is dangerous and if repeated elsewhere could end up seriously injuring or even killing some poor unsuspecting person.

Not sure how people who do this sort of thing sleep at night to be honest.

 

[Octopus]

Thanks to everyone for the replies! I have booked my own qualified electrician to come and sort this out tomorrow morning. It's really great to hear that those of you in the know agree that the work is substandard. I will post back tomorrow and let you know what my electrician thinks of the situation!

After talking to my builder this evening it came out this 'his electrician' doing the work was in fact himself!

Pity the renovation of the flat has just been finished and we will most likely need to run new wires :-/ On the upside I still owe him £700 which should hopefully cover the cost of the new work... better get someone in to double check the gas and plumbing too!!

Thanks guys!

Your £700 isn't going to cover much more than professional tests IMHO........as for running new wires and all the making good....

 

[Englishman]

That is a disgrace. I can't help but lay some blame at customers for this sort of things as a huge amount of them routinely get builders to do electrical work. I'm not blaming the OP in this case, because he believed that the builder was getting a spark in, but a lot of house owners happily let their builders do electrics.

 

[polo1]

That is a disgrace. I can't help but lay some blame at customers for this sort of things as a huge amount of them routinely get builders to do electrical work. I'm not blaming the OP in this case, because he believed that the builder was getting a spark in, but a lot of house owners happily let their builders do electrics.

Whilst I agree some customers are cheapskates, the majority simply don't appreciate
what's involved in electrical work ......it works, therefore it's safe. It lies squarely with the "builder" to use qualified tradesmen, and if they don't then they should pay the full price (legal & financial) when things go wrong. This guy could so easily have been facing a manslaughter charge!

 

[Englishman]

Whilst I agree some customers are cheapskates, the majority simply don't appreciate
what's involved in electrical work ......it works, therefore it's safe. It lies squarely with the "builder" to use qualified tradesmen, and if they don't then they should pay the full price (legal & financial) when things go wrong. This guy could so easily have been facing a manslaughter charge!

The builder needs a serious prosecution but my point about customers stand, I will make clear again that I do not blame the customer in this situation as he was told that a spark was being brought in. And the fact that the vast majority of the public don't appreciate the dangers of electricity and how much work and knowledge goes into systems, is a huge problem in general, and affects the whole proving structure of our business and trade, as well as the work available. Unlike gas and water works, fatal problems are rarely noticeable to the untrained eye.

I've noticed a lot that homeowners allow builders to complete their electrical installations, either because it's cheaper, or because they are mislead over the abilities of the builders. I believe that it is a case of the former on the vast majority of occasions.

 

[ruston]

I agree that £700 wont go far , but at least it is a start.
I would take the advice given , especially with regard to legal redress. This type of installation needs stamping out, it is getting ever more common.

 

[Octopus]

I was doing dome work this morning for a home owner, who is planning an extension and we got talking about the electrics. He asked what I would recommend.

I suggested that he ask to meet the sparky before they start to discuss the project and requirements......and keep contact directly with the spark, not to cut out the builder, but more to ensure they got what they wanted.

All we can do is try and educate clients...

 

[Englishman]

Unfortunately Murdoch, most clients see electrical work as the least important and as such, they try and do it as cheaply as possibly.

 

[quinlivanb]

Hello all, again, thank you for the response! I've had a electrician in today to look at the situation and it's just as bad as it looks, and worse in some places. Looks like the whole place is going to need to be rewired and as all the walls are concrete this is going to require some creative solutions. likely going to cost in the region of 3-5000 pounds. Should be sorted by Christmas thank god!

I also got a plumber in to test the new boiler. He informed me that none of the figures of the test sheet made any sense and it was clear that no combustion or any other of the required tests had been carried out. It also appears that the invoice we were given for this plumbing work was fake. Again the builders have clearly lied about getting a plumber in to fit and test the system. Luckily the plumber was able to fix the few minor issues in a few hours and was able to carry out the required tests. All is now safe on that end!

Luckily the builder has emailed us a copy of this false invoice so this should give us some good legal standing ??

 

[Chris E]

Just a suggestion, if you're not already, log every interation in regards to this issue, invoices, emails, telephone calls, quotes, issues, who, where, everything. You may not need a good chunk of it but its always good to have this info to hand.

 

[hightower]

At the risk of sounding like an absolute 'expletive', how does someone find themselves in this situation? I wouldn't let anyone near my house unless I was sure not only of their qualifications, but also of their previous work. We've just spent £13k on an extension, but only after quotes from various companies and then only after having heard satisfactory reviews (from people we trust) on the chosen company. I mean, it's not like you've had a socket added - you've had major work done, surely making sure you get someone trusted is nothing more than common sense?

P.S. This isn't a stab at the OP. I'm genuinely interested how people find themselves in this situation - did you let your guard down OP, or did you do everything anyone parting with thousands of pounds would do and still found yourself in the predicament?

 

[DPG]

What a cowboy - make sure you go as far as you can with this one. As someone else said, he will be doing other jobs like this and could well end up killing someone. Hope you get everything straightened out before Christmas. Daz

 

[Iddy]

What a complete mess...Hope you get it sorted asap...Maybe one off the members on this forum close to your location could take the job on for you..

 

[DPG]

Post photos of any other nasties that you uncover. Daz

 

[Englishman]

At the risk of sounding like an absolute 'expletive', how does someone find themselves in this situation? I wouldn't let anyone near my house unless I was sure not only of their qualifications, but also of their previous work. We've just spent £13k on an extension, but only after quotes from various companies and then only after having heard satisfactory reviews (from people we trust) on the chosen company. I mean, it's not like you've had a socket added - you've had major work done, surely making sure you get someone trusted is nothing more than common sense?

P.S. This isn't a stab at the OP. I'm genuinely interested how people find themselves in this situation - did you let your guard down OP, or did you do everything anyone parting with thousands of pounds would do and still found yourself in the predicament?

I think they either go with the first quote, do very little research on the company in question, or they've chosen the cheapest. It's as simple as that, I suspect it's the latter, and if it is, then you're simply asking for something like this.

 

[Midwest]

Hello all, again, thank you for the response! I've had a electrician in today to look at the situation and it's just as bad as it looks, and worse in some places. Looks like the whole place is going to need to be rewired and as all the walls are concrete this is going to require some creative solutions. likely going to cost in the region of 3-5000 pounds. Should be sorted by Christmas thank god!

Don't want to sound a bit of a killjoy, but as its going to cost £3-5k and the 'walls are concrete', do you think it's realistic to think its going to be sorted in 8 days? Unless you've got DIY SOS going in.

 

[Englishman]

Also, I'm assuming hat the only electrics altered were in the kitchen? In which case, why does the entire lot need rewiring? I suspect that this isn't the case, and would certainly not be going with just one quote again.

 

[ruston]

Also, I'm assuming hat the only electrics altered were in the kitchen? In which case, why does the entire lot need rewiring? I suspect that this isn't the case, and would certainly not be going with just one quote again.

If it is a concrete building then maybe Lucien's post 4 has it summed up.
I would also want further opinions before I get bitten again.

 

[newtothis]

I'm sorry for the OPs trouble, Feel a bit bad trying to gain some knowledge on the back of this.
Is there any logic, for cutting back the CPC.
What I mean is: is it just sheer malicious laziness and ignorance.
Is there any remote circumstance under the sun whereby someone could attempt a justification ?
I know about double insulated appliances were the earth is put it a connector for neatness if the flex has a cpc, anything else ??

 

[R G]

I'm sorry for the OPs trouble, Feel a bit bad trying to gain some knowledge on the back of this.
Is there any logic, for cutting back the CPC.
What I mean is: is it just sheer malicious laziness and ignorance.
Is there any remote circumstance under the sun whereby someone could attempt a justification ?
I know about double insulated appliances were the earth is put it a connector for neatness if the flex has a cpc, anything else ??

Chances are the builder has done that nice little job and couldn't give a monkeys as long as the appliances operated ..

 

[newtothis]

Chances are the builder has done that nice little job and couldn't give a monkeys as long as the appliances operated ..

Thanks Mate,

I see what all the guys have said. I accept it without question, this is rancid job.

In the past I’ve been guilty of being too quick to be squeamish about stuff I’ve seen. Mostly old installs. When I’ve flagged it up, its turned out I’m talking about stuff that’s fully compliant. Making myself look like a proper burke.
If I see anything like this..... I’ll know it’s totally wrong.

 

[davesparks]

Hello all, again, thank you for the response! I've had a electrician in today to look at the situation and it's just as bad as it looks, and worse in some places. Looks like the whole place is going to need to be rewired and as all the walls are concrete this is going to require some creative solutions. likely going to cost in the region of 3-5000 pounds. Should be sorted by Christmas thank god!

What reasons did he give for needing the whole place rewired?

As a general rule anyone so short of work on the last couple of weeks before December that they can manage a complete rewire in time for Christmas is unlikely to be much better than the previous bloke!

 

[Sparkie30]

If you decide to chase the floors better be careful. Had to deal with this once because they decided to chase the floors.

 

[R G]

Far better to have carried out an EICR and verified what needs to be done and recommendations taken into account to be able to prepare a quotations for the work required ....

 

[ruston]

If you decide to chase the floors better be careful. Had to deal with this once because they decided to chase the floors.

View attachment 30954

Another bodge there too though, those pipes should have been protected from the concrete.

 

[Sparkie30]

Another bodge there too though, those pipes should have been protected from the concrete.

No mate the are not pipes, they were MI cables feeding 3 flats.

 

[ruston]

Ooops, even worse.

 

[K Macnamara]

The problem is with the notification process. Unless you are installing a new circuit with a new fuse at the board, replacing the board or carrying out work within a special location containing a bath or a shower then the work doesnt have to be notified. In my experience you can be a successfully busy sparks and issue valid certs to domestic properties without ever having to be Part P registered even when building control are involved!!! I would even go as far as to say that it is now only a real requirement to be registered if your work is for social housing or new builds. But all work that involves altering a circuit should be tested and certified. The difficulty is if there is no previous documentation in relation to the existing installation then it would be difficult to confirm the work that has been done.

However, saying that from looking at the photos you have serious issues and they could be easily rectified. As stated with my fellow experts get an independent assessment. Its is fair to say that it is easy to pick faults in others work but you know that already. If I was you to expect to pay no more than £200 for a report (EICR) for the whole property if they charge a day rate or £35 per circuit/fuse at the board. These do not necessarily have to be carried out by a Part P registered electrician just a qualified/skilled person. Get at least 3 quotes and take the middle price or ask the most expensive quote to match the middle price. If you're struggling to find electricians then contact your local council or go to the NICEIC website and you'll find help there. Trading standards may be reluctant to get involved until you try to have communication with the builder to let them rectify the problem. But I can't be certain on that.

It is now Christmas Morning by 4 minutes and I have to be a responsible father and husband and end here. Although I could waffle on as this forum is my new vice. I note you live in the big smoke and with me being in the Luton area maybe able to help so ask and we'll see what occurs.

Anyway Merry Xmas

Kevin