Plastic versas Metal CU's - your chance to vote

[GEOFF S]

Well PVC starts to melt at 160 degrees, now i think we can be certain that the heat generated is due to poor terminations, so the cable PVC will see the increased temp before anything else. so if the cable starts to burn back will metal help

Maybe the main issue is the fact that people cover CU'S with combustable items, clothing etc, maybe a steel cage is the answer

Cheers

 

[telectrix]

i think the problem has already been solved by instructing Electrical Trainee's to use torque screwdrivers. bloody 'ell did you see that pig fly past?

 

[baldsparkies]

i think the problem has already been solved by instructing Electrical Trainee's to use torque screwdrivers. bloody 'ell did you see that pig fly past?

Yep, all these years installing without this nonsense and then along comes !!
Electrical Trainee
Torque screwdrivers and,
Non combustible c/u's
And there all sharing the same time line !!
You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to work this can of worms out.

 

[edexlab]

Not trying to open a new debate here, just my opinion
I've met as many bad '"apprentice trained" electricians as good ones, yet to meet a good Electrical Trainee!
The problem as I see it rules this country now and that's the general attitude of people regarding work , everyone seems to be looking for a quick easy fix to a problem whether it be retraining on one of these ridiculous short get rich quick scam courses or addressing CU fires by fitting non combustible units instead of taking a "considered thought out approach " and tackling the real problem of poor training and selection of candidates for training, it used to be that there was a minimum requirement of intelligence to become an electrician and for a good reason!
Yet the issue with short courses is this does not happen.
The people writing the regs are bolting the door after shergars done one!
CU fires are nothing new and nearly always caused as we all agree by loose terminations !

 

[telectrix]

if only carlberg did electrical courses.
Carlsberg unveils new 'If Carlsberg did...' ad in £12m push

 

[baldsparkies]

Spoke to the manager at our Denmans branch today.
Reckon they are going to a meeting next week organised by one of there CU suppliers.
Should be interesting.

 

[Octopus]

i'd imagine something along the lines of stopping these Electrical Trainee chancers working in the industry.

Which is not relevent - the poll is about plastic and metal cu's.

NB: I've been reading some of the BEAMA stuff on this and they have clearly identified loose connections as the root of the issue - so instead of dealing with crxp products or poor workmanship they do this!

 

[chrish_1977]

I would agree, I bought a torque screwdriver from wera for board terminals and what I found is the actual screw can't withstand being torqued to what the manufacturer of that board state it should be. And also when I was at college many moons ago, the tutors told me that rcd's are also used for fire protection

 

[trev]

I'd like to hear the excuse why CU terminals are more important than cooker, socket or shower terminals.

 

[Leesparkykent]

I'd like to hear the excuse why CU terminals are more important than cooker, socket or shower terminals.

Haven't you heard that from January 2016 you are only allowed to use surface mount metal clad boxes and sockets haha

 

[ipf]

I'd like to hear the excuse why CU terminals are more important than cooker, socket or shower terminals.

Yeah, cooker unit terminals.....they used to be double screwed, too.

 

[telectrix]

and we had the good old 7/029 which made a far safer termination than this solid core crap we're stuck with (talking sockets here, before someone tells me that 6mm and 10mm are stranded).

 

[GB.Kayak]

Which is not relevent - the poll is about plastic and metal cu's.

NB: I've been reading some of the BEAMA stuff on this and they have clearly identified loose connections as the root of the issue - so instead of dealing with crxp products or poor workmanship they do this!

M,


It is interesting how close the voting is ... was when I drafted this yesterday. I think that having looked at the ESC document http://www.downlights.co.uk/files/ESC-Fire-Rated-Downlights.pdf?334762691, fire and its containment is critical to safety when fire breaks out. I have therefore voted Yes. However, I am troubled by what appears from the 'outside' to be something of a knee jerk reaction to a 'new trend' in fire safety statistics. Unfortunately, it is not always possible to directly correlate cause and effect with any great accuracy because of the wide variety of changing influences on an incident or potential incident. Furthermore, the introduction of measures to make something safer may well result in the opposite outcome. The picture I like is that there are many links in the chain of action or inaction that either lead up to an incident occurring or being avoided. There are often a lot of 'near misses' or avoided potential incidents before everything falls 'in line' and an incident occurs. 'Incombustible' enclosures are another hurdle to be crossed making it less likely that a chain of events will lead to an incident.

- Hypothetical Chain - Experienced installer installs plastic CU correctly, faulty OCPD causes fire, fire spreads from plastic CU, fireman entrapped by fallen cables and killed; cables installed 30 years previously and found serviceable on CU replacement. There are a number of things that could or would have prevented the tragic outcome. A properly installed and fire sealed incombustible CU may have been one of them.

I come from a world where the 'risks' of particular activities are recognised and usually attempts are made to 'manage' them. Perhaps management is the wrong term, mitigate or reduce is better. In my training risk 'management' is about identifying potential incidents, their probability and their impact if they occur and then identifying strategies to reduce their probability or impact or both. In this case, 'Incombustible' enclosures to electrical switchgear and distribution points clearly fall into the 'reduce impact' camp while training and monitoring of the performance of tradesmen fall into the 'reduce probability' solution. That said, the standard that is often set for taking action is to reduce risk to As Low As Reasonably Practicable, the ALARP principle. Unfortunately, ALARP is often a qualitative judgement call and brings into play the appetite for risk, its impact and the resources available to mitigate the risk. Often these resources have to be balanced between the desired activity and making it a safe activity! When the customer's focus is the aesthetics, basic function or desire for hair raising thrills and spills the safety aspects represent unwanted additional cost!

 

[telectrix]

interesting post.

as much as the new reg. may go towards preventing the spread of fire from within a CU, it can't stop the stupidity of stuffing combustible material/s around the CU by householders, nor can it cure the actual problem, which has clearly been identified as poor workmanship ( installer), coupled with poor quality materials (manufacturer), and lack of maintenance ( customer).

address these issues, and the effect is mitigated to the point where it becomes a rarity.

as the old adage says........ " prevention is better than cure".

 

[baldsparkies]

So here it is from the horses mouth (so to speak)

Actually stating the CAUSE is faulty materials and loose connections (due to poor workmanship)

So the answer is !!

If you have a potential fire hazard, cover it up with something that wont catch fire.

Now is it just me, or is this one of the dumbest suggestions you have ever heard.

Totally agree that :

PREVENTION IS BETTER THAN CURE.

But is anyone listening !!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AaKOx5q1j4

 

[Charlie_]

Loose connections is not necessarily due to poor workmanship

 

[GB.Kayak]

interesting post.

as much as the new reg. may go towards preventing the spread of fire from within a CU, it can't stop the stupidity of stuffing combustible material/s around the CU by householders, nor can it cure the actual problem, which has clearly been identified as poor workmanship ( installer), coupled with poor quality materials (manufacturer), and lack of maintenance ( customer).

address these issues, and the effect is mitigated to the point where it becomes a rarity.

as the old adage says........ " prevention is better than cure".

I agree with most of what you post ... I have one question: what maintenance is the customer expected to carry out?

Clearly even a metal enclosure may only delay the spread of a fire because if the source of ignition is sustained within a metal enclosure it may eventually reach the ignition temperature of nearby materials.

 

[telectrix]

I agree with most of what you post ... I have one question: what maintenance is the customer expected to carry out?

Clearly even a metal enclosure may only delay the spread of a fire because if the source of ignition is sustained within a metal enclosure it may eventually reach the ignition temperature of nearby materials.

to answer your q. about maintenance, it's down to the customer to request test/inspection/maintenance work by a qualified spark. we can't be going round insisting . it's up to the user , same as a car . regular servicing is recommended, but it's the owner who has to arrange it.

 

[GB.Kayak]

to answer your q. about maintenance, it's down to the customer to request test/inspection/maintenance work by a qualified spark. we can't be going round insisting . it's up to the user , same as a car . regular servicing is recommended, but it's the owner who has to arrange it.

Good point ... maybe there is another 'value added' service that we could offer ... like a main dealership, ring up the customer when their inspection comes due! ;-P

 

[frontier219]

to answer your q. about maintenance, it's down to the customer to request test/inspection/maintenance work by a qualified spark. we can't be going round insisting . it's up to the user , same as a car . regular servicing is recommended, but it's the owner who has to arrange it.

I think this has hit the nail on the head in many ways. The problem, though, is awareness. Everyone is aware that you should have your car serviced (even if they don't) but how many people get anything else at all checked until something goes wrong?

Preventative maintenance is the cure. The problem is education, and the untrained making unnecessary work for themselves through c*ap EICRs.