Spur from Ring Final Circuit

[Gigsy]

My last thread was taken down due to copyright reasons, I think it was because I scanned a page from the wiring regs and posted it.

Can anyone tell me if this circuit design conforms to regs?

 

[Andy78]

Will this alteration be getting tested and a certificate produced ?

 

[GMES]

My last thread was taken down due to copyright reasons, I think it was because I scanned a page from the wiring regs and posted it.

Can anyone tell me if this circuit design conforms to regs?

View attachment 34318

That's the only reason mate, Because it was the first post in the thread I couldn't delete the image without deleting the whole thread.

 

[Gigsy]

Will this alteration be getting tested and a certificate produced ?

Nope alterations and additions do not need to be notified to building control so no certificate needed

 

[Gigsy]

That's the only reason mate, Because it was the first post in the thread I couldn't delete the image without deleting the whole thread.

Thank you for explaining

 

[Andy78]

Nope alterations and additions do not need to be notified to building control so no certificate needed

The wiring regulations stipulate that all alterations are tested and certificated with the appropriate series of tests to verify safety. This is regardless of any need to notify work or not.

 

[Gigsy]

The wiring regulations stipulate that all alterations are tested and certificated with the appropriate series of tests to verify safety. This is regardless of any need to notify work or not.

Thank you for pointing that out. The wiring regulations are only advisory. I will take your comment into consideration. My main concern at the moment is getting the design correct

 

[Andy78]

Thank you for pointing that out. The wiring regulations are only advisory. I will take your comment into consideration. My main concern at the moment is getting the design correct

Design is just advisory, crack on.

 

[Gigsy]

Design is just advisory, crack on.

I want the design to be safe, so I have decided to design it in accordance with BS7671 wiring regulations, my problem is I am not sure if this design conforms so I elected to consult the experts in this forum.

 

[Octopus]

Thank you for pointing that out. The wiring regulations are only advisory. I will take your comment into consideration. My main concern at the moment is getting the design correct

Mate, if you want advice and help on this forum best you take good advice and use it - if you don't then we can only assume you go to work on a horse

 

[Andy78]

I want the design to be safe, so I have decided to design it in accordance with BS7671 wiring regulations, my problem is I am not sure if this design conforms so I elected to consult the experts in this forum.

If you really wanted it to be safe you would consider that testing of the circuit is the only real way to prove it will function without risk to life or property.

I'm not being obstructive here but you really need to be honest with the forum in order to get on. You have not filled in any of your profile so nobody knows your qualification level or work. I feel that you are a DIYer doing up your own home with no electrical qualifications. Am I correct ?

 

[Gigsy]

If you really wanted it to be safe you would consider that testing of the circuit is the only real way to prove it will function without risk to life or property.

I'm not being obstructive here but you really need to be honest with the forum in order to get on. You have not filled in any of your profile so nobody knows your qualification level or work. I feel that you are a DIYer doing up your own home with no electrical qualifications. Am I correct ?

You are correct. I am being honest, why do you think otherwise?

 

[Gigsy]

Mate, if you want advice and help on this forum best you take good advice and use it - if you don't then we can only assume you go to work on a horse

I do not own a horse? I am taking advice. I said thank you for pointing out the regs recommend testing.

 

[Gigsy]

Am i correct in saying that the spur has a maximum length of 1/8 of the total circuit?

 

[Andy78]

You are correct. I am being honest, why do you think otherwise?

I can't help you anymore and nor should anyone else here. It would be professionally wrong of me to assist an incompetent person to do electrical work, especially when they have stated that they will pick and choose from the standard that our profession works to as it suits them.

 

[Gigsy]

I can't help you anymore and nor should anyone else here. It would be professionally wrong of me to assist an incompetent person to do electrical work, especially when they have stated that they will pick and choose from the standard that our profession works to as it suits them.

What do you mean help me anymore, you have not helped me at all. You are replying to a question in a DIY thread. What is the point in coming into a DIY thread and just saying I can't help you? Why even bother reading it if your attitude is to not help. My question was does my design comply to the regs. You asked am I having it tested and certified, paraphrasing, I said my work does not legally need to be tested or certified. That is just the law, people are allowed to do their own wiring in accordance with UK law, they only need to notify building control if they install a new circuit or install a consumer unit. Then they need to have their work tested and certified. I don't make up the rules, the government sets the law. You advised me that the wiring regulations advises I have any work tested, I said thank you for the heads up I will take it in to consideration. Can you tell me on what page BS7671 states minor works should be tested, I have not read that.

 

[Gigsy]

I can't help you anymore and nor should anyone else here. It would be professionally wrong of me to assist an incompetent person to do electrical work, especially when they have stated that they will pick and choose from the standard that our profession works to as it suits them.

Are you saying if you do minor works on an installation, you then test and certify all your work? If so you are stealing money from your customers, because minor works only require a minor works certificate, minor works do not need to have an inspection and testing cert, therefore saying that the regs require all work to be tested is rubbish. You are simply making it up or you do not know the regs. To prove you know the regs, what page in BS7671 does it say that minor works need testing and certifying?

 

[Andy78]

Are you saying if you do minor works on an installation, you then test and certify all your work? If so you are stealing money from your customers, because minor works only require a minor works certificate, minor works do not need to have an inspection and testing cert, therefore saying that the regs require all work to be tested is rubbish. You are simply making it up or you do not know the regs. To prove you know the regs, what page in BS7671 does it say that minor works need testing and certifying?

You seem confused. A minor works certificate and an installation certificate are both certificates. They are both required by BS7671 as described in sections 610.1 to 610.6

Please do not insinuate I am grabbing money from my customers without reason. If you understand the above sections then you will see I am only conforming to the regulations.

 

[Gigsy]

You seem confused. A minor works certificate and an installation certificate are both certificates. They are both required by BS7671 as described in sections 610.1 to 610.6

Please do not insinuate I am grabbing money from my customers without reason. If you understand the above sections then you will see I am only conforming to the regulations.

Are you saying you issue an inspection and testing cert for minor works?

You have not told me what page it states minor works requires an inspection and testing cert

 

[Andy78]

Are you saying you issue an inspection and testing cert for minor works?

You have not told me what page it states minor works requires an inspection and testing cert

I issue appropriate certificates for the scope of the work completed. sometimes an installation certificate, sometimes a minor works certificate.
Section 610.4, and 610.6 pertain to the requirement for testing and inspection and certification of "minor works" as you call it.

 

[Gigsy]

I issue appropriate certificates for the scope of the work completed. sometimes an installation certificate, sometimes a minor works certificate.
Section 610.4, and 610.6 pertain to the requirement for testing and inspection and certification of "minor works" as you call it.

So when you issue a minor works cert, you do not test the work you carried out? Therefore your previous statement that BS7671 requires all work to be tested it incorrect

 

[Andy78]

Of course I test the work I certificate.

Have you read and digested section 610 yet ?

 

[Darkwood]

Just had a little chat and noted Gigsy is a Trainee so we are looking at gaining access to the Trainee forum once he gives us the details, can you take this into account with any further responses, he is doing this work in his own house as well so lets give him a little room here to learn his trade

 

[Andy78]

Just had a little chat and noted Gigsy is a Trainee so we are looking at gaining access to the Trainee forum once he gives us the details, can you take this into account with any further responses, he is doing this work in his own house as well so lets give him a little room here to learn his trade

No problem. I will endeavour and persist with my explanations of BS7671 if Gigsy is interested.

 

[Gigsy]

Oh ok i stand corrected, just looked at the Minor Electrical Installation Works Certificate, You do need to do earth continuity test, insulation resistance test, earth fault loop impedance test and polarity test. I am sorry for all previous comments. I will have the work tested by a skilled person upon completion.

 

[Gigsy]

No problem. I will endeavour and persist with my explanations of BS7671 if Gigsy is interested.

Thank you, I am interested

 

[Gigsy]

So when you change a light you have to do an insulation resistance test? So you would have to remove all the light bulbs on the whole circuit and do the test, just cos u changed a light?

 

[Darkwood]

My bedtime, please be nice to each other and if you have time Gigsy please fill your profile in for other members who may not venture into this thread

 

[Gigsy]

My bedtime, please be nice to each other and if you have time Gigsy please fill your profile in for other members who may not venture into this thread

Ok I will, thank you

 

[Andy78]

Oh ok i stand corrected, just looked at the Minor Electrical Installation Works Certificate, You do need to do earth continuity test, insulation resistance test, earth fault loop impedance test and polarity test. I am sorry for all previous comments. I will have the work tested by a skilled person upon completion.

Also RCD tests where relevant.
I would suggest that if you will be bringing in a skilled person to test your work that you arrange this prior to carrying out any more work. Whoever is signing the certificate may wish to stipulate design and installation methods, such as connections to ring circuits, and wish to see the installed cables at first fix stage.

Thank you for taking time to read the section on testing and certification. Although BS7671 is not a statutory document, it can be referred to in a court of law, by insurers, and by solicitors during house sales etc. It is good sense to get all work properly tested and certificated as evidence of safety.

 

[Darkwood]

Just before I go, if your changing a light fitting you just need to confirm the voltage and the integrity of the earthing (Earth loop Impedance) and that the circuit has no obvious issues like an incorrect OCPD etc, if however you are extending, altering or wiring new then a full test of the circuit is required and any of your work has to meet BS7671 regardless of whether the rest of the circuit does.

 

[Andy78]

So when you change a light you have to do an insulation resistance test? So you would have to remove all the light bulbs on the whole circuit and do the test, just cos u changed a light?

If changing a light fitting like for like then it is reasonably accepted you are not altering the circuit and therefore this testing is not required and neither is a certificate. This doesn't mean that no testing takes place ever in this instance though. Verification of a valid earth path while putting up a metal fitting for example.

If you are adding an extra light point into a circuit the regs asks that you:
Ascertain that the installation is in a safe condition to perform the alteration on and is suitable for the alteration, this includes earthing and bonding.
Ensure the work complies with the regulations
Inspect and test your work and produce a certificate.

Strictly, the work you are doing is the only part of the circuit that would need its test results recording on the test certificate. In practice values for the whole circuit are commonly recorded and are also acceptable. You have to, after all, verify that the existing installation is suitable for the alteration.

 

[Gigsy]

Also RCD tests where relevant.
I would suggest that if you will be bringing in a skilled person to test your work that you arrange this prior to carrying out any more work. Whoever is signing the certificate may wish to stipulate design and installation methods, such as connections to ring circuits, and wish to see the installed cables at first fix stage.

Thank you for taking time to read the section on testing and certification. Although BS7671 is not a statutory document, it can be referred to in a court of law, by insurers, and by solicitors during house sales etc. It is good sense to get all work properly tested and certificated as evidence of safety.

Thank you for your advice. I am doing a course with a company called Trades Gateway. You study at home using course material and online and have a tutor. I take tutor marked assessments after each module and after so many modules you do two weeks at college and take exams. I am due for my 1st two weeks at college starting Monday. 1st week is on health and safety and 2nd week is inspection and testing. So hopefully in 2 weeks time I will be able to test it myself if I pass the exam. I have a multi function tester, just gotta get it calibrated

 

[Gigsy]

Just before I go, if your changing a light fitting you just need to confirm the voltage and the integrity of the earthing (Earth loop Impedance) and that the circuit has no obvious issues like an incorrect OCPD etc, if however you are extending, altering or wiring new then a full test of the circuit is required and any of your work has to meet BS7671 regardless of whether the rest of the circuit does.

Thank you

 

[Pete999]

My last thread was taken down due to copyright reasons, I think it was because I scanned a page from the wiring regs and posted it.

Can anyone tell me if this circuit design conforms to regs?

View attachment 34318

Are the 2 JBs MF? if not are they accessible?

 

[Octopus]

In the thread that got deleted, didn't you say you were considering this option because the builders had been in and put down a tiled floor? If this is correct and the work is under the remit of building control, it may be prudent to check up on the certification requirements of LABC so that the home owner can get a completion certificate.

As for getting somebody else to test and sign off - good luck with that one!

 

[hightower]

Gigsy, you state that BS7671 isn't law, however, the Electricity at Work Regulations are law. Have a look at Regulation 4 of the EAW Regs - now it doesn't explicitly state that inspection and testing are required, however, if you think about it inspection and testing are absolutely required to ensure you comply with this regulation. Without inspection and testing how else are you able to prove that systems are safe etc?

 

[westward10]

Gigsy, you state that BS7671 isn't law, however, the Electricity at Work Regulations are law. Have a look at Regulation 4 of the EAW Regs - now it doesn't explicitly state that inspection and testing are required, however, if you think about it inspection and testing are absolutely required to ensure you comply with this regulation. Without inspection and testing how else are you able to prove that systems are safe etc?

As the title says Work, it does not apply to domestic situations.

 

[hightower]

As the title says Work, it does not apply to domestic situations.

Tosh. Work doesn't mean the location, it means the activity. As in doing work on the electrics.

 

[Pat H]

As the title says Work, it does not apply to domestic situations.

So is there no legal requirement for electrical safety at home? Anything goes?

 

[westward10]

Tosh. Work doesn't mean the location, it means the activity. As in doing work on the electrics.

I probably didn't make it too clear I was understanding this is DIY query and that the op is not employed or being paid for these works, if this is the case E&WR 1989 do not apply. If I am incorrect in assuming this then they do.

 

[Barry White]

It applies to employers,employed and self employed It dont matter whether the location is domestic or comercial/industrial

 

[westward10]

It applies to employers,employed and self employed It dont matter whether the location is domestic or comercial/industrial

What I am saying, if employed or being paid as self employed then it applies, if a DIYer then it doesn't.

 

[Barry White]

In diy you can do anything unless it goes wrong or an insurance company/mortgage company or buyer requires a cert

 

[westward10]

In diy you can do anything unless it goes wrong or an insurance company/mortgage company or buyer requires a cert

Well if Cert is required then someone would be employed and it would apply.

 

[Barry White]

Well if Cert is required then someone would be employed and it would apply.

Re read the post I was agreeing with what you said ie they can do anything UNLESS it goes wrong or an insurance company/mortgage company need a cert

 

[westward10]

Re read the post I was agreeing with what you said ie they can do anything UNLESS it goes wrong or an insurance company/mortgage company need a cert

My reading skills ain't what they were

 

[Gigsy]

Are the 2 JBs MF? if not are they accessible?

They are push fit terminals with cable grips!

 

[Gigsy]

In the thread that got deleted, didn't you say you were considering this option because the builders had been in and put down a tiled floor? If this is correct and the work is under the remit of building control, it may be prudent to check up on the certification requirements of LABC so that the home owner can get a completion certificate.

As for getting somebody else to test and sign off - good luck with that one!

Yes floor has been tiled so I can't get access from the floor boards upstairs

 

[Gigsy]

Gigsy, you state that BS7671 isn't law, however, the Electricity at Work Regulations are law. Have a look at Regulation 4 of the EAW Regs - now it doesn't explicitly state that inspection and testing are required, however, if you think about it inspection and testing are absolutely required to ensure you comply with this regulation. Without inspection and testing how else are you able to prove that systems are safe etc?

Can you copy and paste the regulation. Does it state proof is required or just that it must be safe, if so does it state what proof is required? The electricity at work act does what it says on the tin, electricity at work, this is my home, I am not at work.