Too late for building control?

[robsparx]

I may be in a slightly sticky situation. Before i start, i dont reccomend doing what I've done, as i understand it you should ALWAYS notify building control BEFORE you start a job if youre not registered to self certify


I had a rewire thrust upon me a few weeks ago when i was unemployed, so obviously i bit the guys hand off, and got to work straight away. I did'nt really think straight away about how i was going to Part P it.

I have nearly finished it now, and have arranged an ELECSA assessment for early june. But i have since found out that the house is being sold, and the deal is done and they have set the completion date for 2 days after my Part P assessment. So i am understandably more nervous about passing the assessment, and i'm not sure that even if i pass that the client will get the relevant documents in time?

Would it be too late to call out building control and get the to sign it off? The re wire is nearly finished, but its a totally empty house, so i can lift up floorboards etc showing my cable runs, and you can see exactly where i have run cables in the walls.

This is my own fault, i should have got building control involved straight away, even if the client didnt like the sound of the price

 

[Mac]

Can't you just say to the person that is selling the house that you have an inspector assessing your work and that you will forward the relevant paperwork as soon as.I know they have all these HIP packs now but it will be in his interest at the end of the day or call out the building inspector and bill the customer

 

[robsparx]

yes i was thinking that, but from what the builder was saying, the deal wouldnt be going through without the part p paperwork. he could have been exaggerating a bit i suppose. i just thought that, if i failed my assessment for whatever reason, then it could delay me part p'ing it by quite a while.

basically i don't wanna be held responsible for delaying the sale of the house going through, and possible getting in the **** because of it

 

[sparks1234]

Now I may be wrong or I maybe right but somebody told me that Napit allow their members to certify works carried out by others, i didn't think this was allowed, anybody got any thoughts on it?

 

[robsparx]

Now I may be wrong or I maybe right but somebody told me that Napit allow their members to certify works carried out by others, i didn't think this was allowed, anybody got any thoughts on it?

so if youre right i could just search for a napit member in the area? sounds like a good shout if this is the case

 

[sparks1234]

Its only something I heard, its worth a phone call but dont hope too much, your best port of call I would think would be your wholesalers as they will know lots of sparks

Good luck

 

[robsparx]

ok cheers sparks, i'll make a few calls tommorow.

does anyone know if it would be too late to get building control in?

and how long it takes once completing my ELECSA assessment until i can get the part p document to the customer

 

[WILLRUK]

Robsparx,

a couple of observations.

Firstly don't panic.

If the house sale has exchanged then no one is going to pull out - least of all the buyer, unless they're happy to stump up the cost of the seller's fees etc as well as losing the money spent on their own legals.


You know you're approach was flawed but it about putting things right now and at the risk of teaching you to suck eggs, bad news just gets even worse the longer you take to tell it. So best to inform the builder asap.

If you give the builder a clear explanation of what you are doing and what will happen then even if he doesn't like the timescales he can at least pass on the info and he'll probably go with it - albeit under duress. Basically he doesn't really have much choice.

If the buyer insists on getting the Part P cert before completion then their solicitor will probably advise to delay the date of completion until it is received.(Que PO'd builder) The EIC might swing it for you (POST assessment) with an understanding that the Part P cert will follow.

It might also help if you set a level of expectation with the builder as to when he'll receive the Part P cert, personally I quote "usually around 10 days".

after passing the assessment it will take ELECSA a couple days minimum to set you up with the facility to register jobs online through their website. Also ELECSA only send off submitted jobs to BC once a week every Tuesday evening. Certificates usually take a few days to arrive after that. However, you can print off a basic document that proves the job is pending submission to the local Building Control which might temporarily satify the solicitor.

Failing that, as an alternative, get a registered sparks to do a PIR on the property - not a perfect solution as you might cop for the cost if there are any remedials - but it would get the house sale problem out of the way. At the same time find another job for the assessment - like changing the CU at your own home.

Hope this helps.

Best of luck

Will.

 

[robsparx]

cheers will, first things first i guess i could be worrying a bit too much.

the owner of the house and the builder are both aware of my situation, i've explained this to him that my assessment is only a couple of days before the sale completion date, but i now think he may have the idea that as soon as i pass the assessment, that i can sign off a part p cert straight away and thats it.

and the builders a decent bloke, not gonna go mad about anything, he's my mates dad, so he'll just help to get things sorted rather than get in a huff about it

didnt really think about getting somebody to PIR it. this still wouldnt sign it off under part p though? thinking about it, i could actually be 2391 qualified by then, my final exam is on 4th june.

I have a job lined up this week for my assessment, combining 3 old CUs into one. gas and water less than 5 metres away from the CU, so all fairly straight foward. I'll wire a socket next to it for the 'small job' part. Regarding the assessment, as long as the work i've caried out conforms to the regs, and i can show that i know how to test it and fill in the relevant forms, is there much else to worry about?

 

[WILLRUK]

Apologies, my bad about the builder. If he's on side then the issue is a lot simpler.

You can sign off your work immediately following passing the ELECSA assessment - which includes the EIC for the house in question of course. It's just the admin time in getting the Part P cert in your hand that will take the time. Could you explain to the builder that no sparks can give out Part P certs as they have to come from ELECSA/ NIC/NAPIT etc and only after they've been sent to the local BC?

a PIR is a 'Work around' solution so would not get the Part P cert - but it might satify the buyer's solicitor. However I'd make sure the PIR testing was at least as thorough as the EIC testing.As soon as you're registered you could then issue the EIC and get the Part P cert.

Rgds,

Will

 

[andekoch]

you have 20 days to notify building control from the date you complete the work to comply (although some building controls will allow up to 45 days if they are in a good mood). Otherwise you can do a late submission.
If you have an electrical qualification (eg C&G2382 I think for the 17th) and speak to the building control officer he will generally be ok with the late submission. if no qualification building control will want to inspect themselves at a cost to you.

hope this helps

 

[robsparx]

well i'm fully qualified. c+g 2330, nvq3, am2, 17th, got my JIB gold card etc. so if i spoke to building control then they may not even have to come out and see the job?

well i'll ring them up tommorow anyway, explain my situation and go from there

cheers for all the advice guys

 

[LABCman]

I am intrigued by this thread - old I know but the content remains relevent. Nobody pointed out that a criminal offence was committed in the first instance. It is interesting as a building control surveyor to see that the general advice was around covering up the situation not addressing it. Advising the installer to wait until he is accepted by his competent persons scheme is no answer as the work was carried out before qualification i.e. outside the scope of any competent persons scheme. A false declaration would have to be made to certify the work making any CP certification invalid.

The best advice would be to approach the local authority building control ask for a 'Regularisation', pay your fee and have the work inspected and signed off. In my office that process would take about three days start to finish. If we caught someone falsifying inspection records we would prosecute and the courts are very unfiendly to electricians caught cheating.

 

[telectrix]

LABCman, please explain section 1.26 of the part p document. the part where it says that LABC will inspect the work at their expense

 

[LABCman]

LABCman, please explain section 1.26 of the part p document. the part where it says that LABC will inspect the work at their expense

The document you refer to is the Approved Document which is guidance and not the regulation - a bit like NICEIC Site Notes in relation to BS7671. That guidance was taken to apply to electrical works forming part of other works such as an extension or new build no additional fee for electrics in the same way as no extra fee for windows. However SI 2010 No 404 brought in new charging regulations for LA building control allowing much greater flexibility in setting fees. Consequently you will find now that nearly all LAs charge for inspection of electrical works. The idea in AD P was never reasonable in relation to stand alone electrical work anyway

 

[telectrix]

so, if an extension subject to planning is inspected as part of that planning control at no extra cost, why then ( on a job i know of ) did labc insist on test/inspection by a scheme member before signing the job off? ) and that is in addition to passing 300mm of fibreglass insulation packed around and over halogen downlights.

 

[LABCman]

Any electrical work by a competent person forming part of an extension in our area would not be subject to an additional charge however we will insist on inspecting the first fix and having a good look at the test results. Since October 2010 some local authorities may charge for that as we could do for DIYer doing electrical work (we don't actually charge for the DIY electrical work). Electrical work in relation to extensions and erection of new dwellings is not considered to be self certifying work as it is part of the whole and not just electrical work and since BC sign off the extension as a unit and not less certain elements it should be inspected by building control

 

[telectrix]

so, in that case i mentioned, why did labc not inspect the 1st fix when inspector was on site. also could have inspected after 2nd fix as all wiring was clipped and accessible. and why did they say that the planning charge would be more if a non-scheme member was doing the installation. ?

 

[RWJ]

Nobody pointed out that a criminal offence was committed in the first instance.

I think I read somewhere that it's a criminal offence for woman to wear trousers....... That seems about as enforced as Part P

Not that I have the "PART P" qualification (EAL DI Cert)...

 

[edrobbo8]

Advising the installer to wait until he is accepted by his competent persons scheme is no answer as the work was carried out before qualification i.e. outside the scope of any competent persons scheme.


The best advice would be to approach the local authority building control ask for a 'Regularisation', pay your fee and have the work inspected and signed off. In my office that process would take about three days start to finish. If we caught someone falsifying inspection records we would prosecute and the courts are very unfiendly to electricians caught cheating.

Well I had a similar situation on a rewire in March, phoned BC to notify them of starting work, and mentioned I was waiting for a date for my ELECSA assessment. They had no idea at all about inspecting the work after 1st fix, let alone getting someone in to test it if I failed my assessment. Some BCs are totally useless and seem to be a load of desk operators, with no experience in any part of construction, bring on the cuts!

 

[electromonkey]

Where do you live Robsparx? Someone on here may be able to help you out. Also, phone ELECSA and let them know the the situation, you never know, someone may have to postpone their site assessment prior to yours so you could ask them to put you on a standby list.

 

[RWJ]

Where do you live Robsparx? Someone on here may be able to help you out. Also, phone ELECSA and let them know the the situation, you never know, someone may have to postpone their site assessment prior to yours so you could ask them to put you on a standby list.

The post is two years old
Robsparx last logged in 28-04-2011

 

[Mr.Si]

This is an interesting thread to me too, as I will be in this boat too - doing the work myself in my own house, using it for ELECSA assessment, so I will report what happened to me (I'm under Adur District Council). I'm also interested to know when LABCs would need to be paid - up front or once it's complete, or if it varies.

Edit: I welcome the membership of a LABC employee - nice to have words from both sides of the fence, so to speak.

 

[robsparky1975]

I done a consumer unit change last year,prior to enrolling with elecsa,so had to pay labc £65 prior to job commencement,had to show them copies of all my certs,9 months went by and they didnt even bother to go and check anything,not that it matters to me,why did they take money for nothing?are the govt thinking about a change of part p.

 

[electromonkey]

The post is two years old
Robsparx last logged in 28-04-2011

LOL I hope the solicitors aren't still waiting for the cert!

 

[electromonkey]

This is an interesting thread to me too, as I will be in this boat too - doing the work myself in my own house, using it for ELECSA assessment, so I will report what happened to me (I'm under Adur District Council). I'm also interested to know when LABCs would need to be paid - up front or once it's complete, or if it varies.

Edit: I welcome the membership of a LABC employee - nice to have words from both sides of the fence, so to speak.

You don't need to pay your LABC anything. You've notified them that work is taking place. You can notify the work when you pass your assessment (even if you don't pass first time).

 

[Engineer54]

You don't need to pay your LABC anything. You've notified them that work is taking place. You can notify the work when you pass your assessment (even if you don't pass first time).

Does anyone ''Fail'' then????

 

[electromonkey]

You have an on site assessment to enable you to join a registration scheme. If the person assessing you deems you competent to self certify then you have "passed" that assessment, if they don't, then you have "failed" it or have I misunderstood something?

 

[Spudnik]

Most "fails" arent really fails.

They are non conformances and they will require proof that these have been rectified before they issue you with your membership details.

Unless of course someone is really out of touch, and in which case it will be a fail and a re-assessment will need to be booked.

 

[DaveyD]

Does anyone ''Fail'' then????

I seem to remember someone posting that they had to have a re-assesment and pay the fee as they did not provide RCD protection for an extra kitchen spur.
Will see if I can find - but don't hold your breath.
Regards, Dave

 

[Engineer54]

I seem to remember someone posting that they had to have a re-assesment and pay the fee as they did not provide RCD protection for an extra kitchen spur.
Will see if I can find - but don't hold your breath.
Regards, Dave

I would hazard a wild but calculated guess here, ...and say that those that fail are very Few and far between....

 

[electromonkey]

I would hazard a wild but calculated guess here, ...and say that those that fail are very Few and far between....

I had a phone call from a friend of a friend a couple of years ago who wanted me to sign off a re wire for them as they had not met the required standard of the NICEIC inspector and asked her to try again in a few months. I did a PIR for her. Let's just say, I was in full agreement with the assessor that she shouldn't have been signed off.

She is the one and only that I know of but lets face it, if you flunked, you wouldn't go shouting it from the roof tops would you.

 

[DaveyD]

Yes that's the truth.
.... Engineer?

 

[IQ Electrical]

I would hazard a wild but calculated guess here, ...and say that those that fail are very Few and far between....

I have the figures from an ex-assessor that 'spilled the beans' his tales were very worrying, applicants that he clearly failed for non compliant work were getting his decisions overturned by 'head office' amongst other things....

 

[DaveyD]

I have the figures from an ex-assessor that 'spilled the beans' his tales were very worrying, applicants that he clearly failed for non compliant work were getting his decisions overturned by 'head office' amongst other things....

What! That's shocking isn't it. All for the money then?

 

[Engineer54]

What! That's shocking isn't it. All for the money then?

I'm shocked that your surprised!!! :vanish:

 

[IQ Electrical]

What! That's shocking isn't it. All for the money then?

There was a lot more than that, the assessor had been sacked for being 'over-zealous' following a miniscule percentage of complaints from failed assessments.

I know there's 2 sides to every story but I've seen copies of the correspondance between him and 'head office' that convince me that he was just doing the job as he should have been doing it, rather than a lenient 'lets have lots of members, to hell with the quality' attitude.

 

[DaveyD]

I'm shocked that your surprised!!! :vanish:

... you obviously did not read my slug fact.

 

[Des 56]

I am intrigued by this thread - old I know but the content remains relevent. Nobody pointed out that a criminal offence was committed in the first instance. It is interesting as a building control surveyor to see that the general advice was around covering up the situation not addressing it. Advising the installer to wait until he is accepted by his competent persons scheme is no answer as the work was carried out before qualification i.e. outside the scope of any competent persons scheme. A false declaration would have to be made to certify the work making any CP certification invalid.

The best advice would be to approach the local authority building control ask for a 'Regularisation', pay your fee and have the work inspected and signed off. In my office that process would take about three days start to finish. If we caught someone falsifying inspection records we would prosecute and the courts are very unfiendly to electricians caught cheating.

Now this post as both surprised and shocked me
This is the first occasion, in my experience, that an Labc person has first of all been aware of the requirements of the failed building regulation part p, and secondly, the only Labc person, since its flawed and crazy inception, that has demonstrated any interest whatsoever in its enforcement

I dont know what the actual situation is and has been in England,but I can assure him 100% that in Wales it is routinely ignored,unknown and best of all not wanted by anyone who happens, by chance, to be aware of its non enforced existence

To say that someone is breaking the law,that had me in stitches of cycical laughter,there is a world out there that is reality,it does not include building regulation unenforced nonesense

 

[LABCman]

You don't need to pay your LABC anything. You've notified them that work is taking place. You can notify the work when you pass your assessment (even if you don't pass first time).

Sorry but if you are not a member of a CP scheme you must apply to a building control body and pay the requisite fee. If your local authority shows a lack of interest, which I am aware some do, then they are being negligent.

For Robsparky - did you actually cal out the LA to carry out inspections, the procedure is normally that you make an application, the LA acknowledges the application then awaits your call for an inspection at first fix are before if you wish to discuss any item. Payment is up front for a Building Notice or 25% first and the rest after the first inspection for Full Plans applications

Part P is being reviewed and it will not be long before the planned changes are out for consultation, hopefully it will be better organised than the original launch

 

[robsparky1975]

Sorry but if you are not a member of a CP scheme you must apply to a building control body and pay the requisite fee. If your local authority shows a lack of interest, which I am aware some do, then they are being negligent.

For Robsparky - did you actually cal out the LA to carry out inspections, the procedure is normally that you make an application, the LA acknowledges the application then awaits your call for an inspection at first fix are before if you wish to discuss any item. Payment is up front for a Building Notice or 25% first and the rest after the first inspection for Full Plans applications

Part P is being reviewed and it will not be long before the planned changes are out for consultation, hopefully it will be better organised than the original launch

I done it all by the book,called them before and after and still no show,i was not going to chase them up,i informed them and they didnt bother.

 

[LABCman]

Complain to the building control manager and insist that they issue the necessary certification, copy the complaint to the chief executive of the local authority involved. I am sure that you will get a response, but make sure you can quote dates to them.

 

[firemanowl]

Where is it written down that you can't test other peoples work or is it the scheme providers saying you can't? Why can't you use a 3 part EIC, you sign for the design and installation and someone else does/signs for the test. Isn't this what happens on the big site where there is a team of testers going round testing other peoples work?

 

[malcolmsanford]

Commercial/industrial are not under the control or legislation of Part P so quite rightly as you say on big sites you can test others work, As the Electrician on the site will not have designed the installation and one poor guy could not do all the installation work.

Domestic is totally different, which is why they have self certifying schemes that is why the single signature certificate was created.

Also though you could obviously us the single signature certificate for commercial/Industrial if you were doing a small install that you design/installed/tested.

 

[firemanowl]

How does it work on the big house building sites? Won't this be under part p also? I'm not too clued up with how big domestic sites work.

 

[malcolmsanford]

If the contractor is say a large firm that employs several electricians and they have a large install then the company have what is known as a QS. That signs off the work.

He would most likely be the foreman of the job, and so is overseeing all aspects of the installation. So he can truthfully say that the design, installation and testing is done to the BS 7671-2008 and the building Regulations. Now that is how it is done in the books .........................

 

[LABCman]

There is no restriction in BS7671 or Part P on competent persons (not in a CP scheme) from inspecting and testing work and providing the necessary test certificates to building control, indeed it is encouraged at paragraph 1.22 of AD P. The sample test report sheets are a direct copy of those in 7671 and clearly allow for different people to sign for Design, Construction and Inspection and Testing phases.

The only time restrictions are imposed is when the work is done by someone who is not competent to complete a BS7671 certificate such as a DIYer. In that circumstance we will not accept a certificate issued by a competent person unless he can confirm that he/she has supervised all stages of the work from design onwards including the physical installation and the inspection and testing, that can be evidenced by the competent person signing all 3 relevent boxes on the installation certificate. Any additional restriction placed by CP schemes on members signing off other peoples work is for them to manage not building control

 

[electromonkey]

There is no restriction in BS7671 or Part P on competent persons (not in a CP scheme) from inspecting and testing work and providing the necessary test certificates to building control, indeed it is encouraged at paragraph 1.22 of AD P. The sample test report sheets are a direct copy of those in 7671 and clearly allow for different people to sign for Design, Construction and Inspection and Testing phases.

The only time restrictions are imposed is when the work is done by someone who is not competent to complete a BS7671 certificate such as a DIYer. In that circumstance we will not accept a certificate issued by a competent person unless he can confirm that he/she has supervised all stages of the work from design onwards including the physical installation and the inspection and testing, that can be evidenced by the competent person signing all 3 relevent boxes on the installation certificate. Any additional restriction placed by CP schemes on members signing off other peoples work is for them to manage not building control

This is where I find Part P is flawed and inconsistent. If you take a house that has been re wired say 5 years ago and the owner of the property wishes to sell it. When piecing all the documentation together for the sale of the house, it is highlighted that the electrical installation has never had an EIC for the works carried out. It would however be deemed expectable for a PIR to be carried out so the condition of the installation can be examined. If everything appears sound on the visual inspection and the test of the installation is satisfactory, all parties can move on with the sale of the house without any come back. Also, if a property is re wired and the property is put up for sale one month later, who is ensuring that a EIC has been issued? I would suspect, the solicitors acting for the seller and buyer would determine that a PIR is a satisfactory document for the sale to go through and the EIC and notification is forgotten all about.

I'm not saying that I approve of this but as an electrician who regularly gets work from property sales where I can see work has been carried out but without certification makes a mockery of Part P. Unless ALL electrical work is notified prior to it's commencement I can't see how this issue of unnotified work can be properly policed.

 

[Mr.Si]

Part P is being reviewed and it will not be long before the planned changes are out for consultation, hopefully it will be better organised than the original launch

Sadly, that's what we thought in the Acoustics world with Approved Document E when it changed from 1989 to 2003. But that was a shambles with the way it came out with immediate effect etc, so let's hope this is done better...

 

[LABCman]

This is where I find Part P is flawed and inconsistent. If you take a house that has been re wired say 5 years ago and the owner of the property wishes to sell it. When piecing all the documentation together for the sale of the house, it is highlighted that the electrical installation has never had an EIC for the works carried out. It would however be deemed expectable for a PIR to be carried out so the condition of the installation can be examined.

Unfortunately the PIR only gives you the electrical characteristics of the installation anf only limited detail of the physical installation. There is no ready way of determining that all the cabling is in safe zones or is mechanically protected or if there are inappropriate hidden connections etc. All meter readings could be spot on but the wiring could be a nightmare.

all parties can move on with the sale of the house without any come back

Until somebody is hurt or a fire breaks out! The purchasers should be made fully aware of the limited electrical certification and they then can make an informed choice - buy or not

I'm not saying that I approve of this but as an electrician who regularly gets work from property sales where I can see work has been carried out but without certification makes a mockery of Part P. Unless ALL electrical work is notified prior to it's commencement I can't see how this issue of unnotified work can be properly policed.

We have seen sales fall through because completion certifcates or EIRs have not been in place and slowly, slowly it is getting through to people that if they want to make an honest, straightforward sale they do things right from the start or they suffer the consequences.

Also, if a property is re wired and the property is put up for sale one month later, who is ensuring that a EIC has been issued

Either building control has issued a completion or a CP scheme has issued the EIR within 30 days as required by Part P