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Please checkout the new poll we will be pushing hard, and want some good stories to come out of this
result are public - you can change your vote over time, which might genuinely be the case from time to time.
Discuss Whole Kitchen wiring diagram advice (excluding lights) in the DIY Electrical Advice area at ElectriciansForums.net
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Not sure your sparky is going to be too keen on you changing his design?
4th opinion from Screwfix forum: 2 rings not necessary, only recommended separate circuit for hot tap. He also thinks hob and oven can be together. Basically he is partially agrees with my local el-cian ( agrees on 1rc , but disagrees on oven/hob separation).
3 elcians – 3 different opinions
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Personally I'd get another electrician to give you a quote and see what their opinion is.
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Personally no, I wouldn't change my mind. But I'm only one person.
Hopefully some other members will give their opinion on your original arrangement.
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To be honest, that's a very poorly designed system both practically and technically.
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You were still saying people were disagreeing with my opinion though.
You really need a proper sparky to design this rather than tinkering with stuff yourself. There's no shame in knowing your limitations.
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there are 2 things playing on my mind here.
1. as a contractor, I am happy when i have a clear design brief.
this should include the rating of any fixed appliance's and in the case of a kitchen, any other high power device's that are likely to have a permanent home. (microwave, kettle, toaster, washing machine, dishwasher etc.)
I would generally not expect a customer to be particularly interested in the precise layout of the circuits, however i would lay it out on the quote, how many circuits and there rating and use.
i.e.
1 Induction Hob supply 32A
2 cooker and microwave supply 32A
3 general sockets ring 32A
4 waste disposal and boiling water tap 20A
if the customer decided they wanted 2 rings of sockets or the microwave and cooker on different supplies, then i would re quote.
if they want every socket on its own 20A radial then its fine by me but the price is steadily climbing.
2.
if you are arguing about what is the right way to wire your kitchen with the electrician at the quotation stage, the customer/contractor relationship is already broken.
as a contractor we should be providing what the customer wants
however sometimes the customer wants something that is either not possible or cost effective and this needs to be pointed out early on.
i.e. yes of course i can put everything on a separate circuit but it will be £800 more, why not do it this way instead?
sometimes customers have too much time on there hands to read things on the internet about electrical installation that sounds great but is at best misinformed and at worst downright dangerous.
sometimes contractors are simply bad at there job and sometimes the good (technically) ones have a chip on their shoulder and cant deal with a customer wanting it done their way because that's not how they wanted to do it.
a realy good contractor should be able to deal with both the technicality's of providing a safe and good quality installation whilst also having the ability to deal with customers, even the difficult ones, in a professional way.
p.s. some customers can make the last comment impossible but i am not suggesting that you are one of them.
1. as a contractor, I am happy when i have a clear design brief.
this should include the rating of any fixed appliance's and in the case of a kitchen, any other high power device's that are likely to have a permanent home. (microwave, kettle, toaster, washing machine, dishwasher etc.)
I would generally not expect a customer to be particularly interested in the precise layout of the circuits, however i would lay it out on the quote, how many circuits and there rating and use.
i.e.
1 Induction Hob supply 32A
2 cooker and microwave supply 32A
3 general sockets ring 32A
4 waste disposal and boiling water tap 20A
if the customer decided they wanted 2 rings of sockets or the microwave and cooker on different supplies, then i would re quote.
if they want every socket on its own 20A radial then its fine by me but the price is steadily climbing.
2.
if you are arguing about what is the right way to wire your kitchen with the electrician at the quotation stage, the customer/contractor relationship is already broken.
as a contractor we should be providing what the customer wants
however sometimes the customer wants something that is either not possible or cost effective and this needs to be pointed out early on.
i.e. yes of course i can put everything on a separate circuit but it will be £800 more, why not do it this way instead?
sometimes customers have too much time on there hands to read things on the internet about electrical installation that sounds great but is at best misinformed and at worst downright dangerous.
sometimes contractors are simply bad at there job and sometimes the good (technically) ones have a chip on their shoulder and cant deal with a customer wanting it done their way because that's not how they wanted to do it.
a realy good contractor should be able to deal with both the technicality's of providing a safe and good quality installation whilst also having the ability to deal with customers, even the difficult ones, in a professional way.
p.s. some customers can make the last comment impossible but i am not suggesting that you are one of them.
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As a rule we're pretty relaxed on here about DIY'ers because generally speaking they tend to be genuinely asking for advice, however all you seem to be wanting to do is find validation for your own [very limited and ill-advised] viewpoint??
I'm also very much inclined to think that you're about to do this work yourself and CLEARLY do not possess the understanding to do so safely. Had you have started this conversation by saying something like "I'm not sure my electrician is very experienced because they're suggesting....." then we could be better able to help you. However attempting to pit a set of armchair Screwfix opinions against a forum of extremely skilled and experienced electricians and electrical engineers isn't really going to get you very far.
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yet you are not admitting you own)), first you should obey your own logic then you can preach
I don't understand what you mean, sorry.
Anyway, I've given my opinion. Hopefully you can move on with a suitable sparky who will design, install and test a suitable solution.
Interesting idea regarding the split groups. I can see by the amount of opinions this is more like art than precise science. Thank you for your input. Regarding "2" I just need different opinions from professional as I have being let down by them occasionally
Pardon me, This Was regarding your notes about "limit of knowledge", you admitted that you would do not want to change your opinion regardless if there will be conflicting information coming from more qualified electrician, so this mean you where ashamed to admit limit of your own knowledge (potentially) . And yet you are asking others to be shameless in this regard
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What I posted was NOT a recommendation as to how I would lay out your circuits, just an example of how I would deal with quoting for a kitchen fit out.
Take no notice of me, I am not even registered to provide part P certification so cant be bright enough to do domestic installations.
however I do know a bit about electrics and the ins and outs of customer/contractor relationships and that was where my post was aimed at.
thanks, would you care to specify main objections?
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Pardon me, This Was regarding your notes about "limit of knowledge", you admitted that you would do not want to change your opinion regardless if there will be conflicting information coming from more qualified electrician, so this mean you where ashamed to admit limit of your own knowledge (potentially) . And yet you are asking others to be shameless in this regard
Look, your original idea was not good. I advised there were two many high power appliances on the one ring circuit, which I stand by. Others also agreed with this.
It's no good you just tinkering around with things when you aren't aware of the regulations or reasoning behind them.
If someone wants to disagree with me then I'm fine with that. As I said, I only one person.
Up to you. Feel free to 'design by screwfix forum' if you wish.
it was not just Screwfix but local qualified certified electrician as well, the only change he made is splitting hob and oven. there is an updated version of diagram with 2 c rings and separate hob/oven. Yet you don't want to admit your own limitations. And should I state the obvious that anyone who is asking for advice here in diy section is admitting his limitation by definition. please
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Is this a !960s house ?
I agree with DPG about the single ring main.
Fridge /freezer
Hot tap
Boiler
Ideally, should be on their own circuits
If you're running out of Cu ways, you could always add a small kitchen Cu and have more radial circuits.
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Competent or qualified ? As there is a big difference.
this is why I am here
ideally I would live on Tenerife
what is Within regs is fine by me for now ( the house is 1890s))thank you! is this any closer to ideal?:
according to this thorough video YouTube video regarding cooking appliances with reg. references it is fine to put up to 15KW of cooking appliances on one 32A mcb circuit (due to diversity calculations ): 
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Ideally, every appliance would be on its own dp rcbo.
Dishwasher/tumble dryer/washing machine etc would have isolator switch feeding single socket, not fcu.
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Not ideal having spurs off the ring when it's a new installation. Often done when modifying an existing circuit though.
i assume in this case isolator switch only required if the socket is behind the appliance and not easily accessible, otherwise why isolator if there is accessible plug? Or is it for extra safety due to water and steam additional hazard? and there were no fcu's on diagram next to appliances , only on integrated microwave because I assume it will come without plug. so just to recap: If it is not on a single socket on diagram it means the appliance is coming without plug. Not all appliances are purchased yet so this part is variable at the moment. All those switches be inside cabinets (within 2 meters from relevant appliance)
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Might as well give my thoughts I guess.
In principle I do agree that more circuits is better, as it gives more selectivity between loads. So if one part of the installation becomes faulty, other parts remain intact and in service.
But I also believe in simplicity where possible.
One thing you need to change is having the fridge freezer on A 6 amp MCB. It may only have a small running current, but when the compressor(s) start there is a significant startup surge which will trip a 6A MCB.
The sort of thing that even a competent DIYer will probably not be aware of.
Installation design, even at a relatively simple level, is in my opinion beyond the scope of DIY, because there are so many factors that need to be coordinated, and a huge book of regulations that are applicable and need to be adhered to.
In principle I do agree that more circuits is better, as it gives more selectivity between loads. So if one part of the installation becomes faulty, other parts remain intact and in service.
But I also believe in simplicity where possible.
One thing you need to change is having the fridge freezer on A 6 amp MCB. It may only have a small running current, but when the compressor(s) start there is a significant startup surge which will trip a 6A MCB.
The sort of thing that even a competent DIYer will probably not be aware of.
Installation design, even at a relatively simple level, is in my opinion beyond the scope of DIY, because there are so many factors that need to be coordinated, and a huge book of regulations that are applicable and need to be adhered to.
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The UK Plugs and Sockets Regulations require appliances (rated under 13A) to be fitted with plugs by the manufacturers.
It was prompted by the number of accidents caused by people fitting their own plugs! There are exceptions, but you will find when you buy your appliances pretty well all, other than a high current hob, will be fitted with a moulded on plug. (Which brings another complication - if you cut that plug off, and the appliance is subsequently faulty, you may well get told that the warranty is void because you cut the plug off, which is rubbish, but still seems to be a prevalent thing)
The Plugs and Sockets etc. (Safety) Regulations 1994
These Regulations re–enact with modifications the provisions of the Plugs and Sockets etc. (Safety) Regulations 1987 (S.I. 1987/603) and make provision for the first time for certain requirements to be satisfied in relation to appliances.
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Yes indeed. I'd forgotten about this. And it would seem so have some manufacturers of appliances. I had a 2.3kW oven to fit the other day that didn't come with a plug. In fact the flex had a label wrapped around it stating "do not fit a plug".The UK Plugs and Sockets Regulations require appliances (rated under 13A) to be fitted with plugs by the manufacturers.
It was prompted by the number of accidents caused by people fitting their own plugs! There are exceptions, but you will find when you buy your appliances pretty well all, other than a high current hob, will be fitted with a moulded on plug.
The Plugs and Sockets etc. (Safety) Regulations 1994
These Regulations re–enact with modifications the provisions of the Plugs and Sockets etc. (Safety) Regulations 1987 (S.I. 1987/603) and make provision for the first time for certain requirements to be satisfied in relation to appliances.www.legislation.gov.uk
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Esther Rantzen's finest work!The UK Plugs and Sockets Regulations require appliances (rated under 13A) to be fitted with plugs by the manufacturers.
It was prompted by the number of accidents caused by people fitting their own plugs! There are exceptions, but you will find when you buy your appliances pretty well all, other than a high current hob, will be fitted with a moulded on plug. (Which brings another complication - if you cut that plug off, and the appliance is subsequently faulty, you may well get told that the warranty is void because you cut the plug off, which is rubbish, but still seems to be a prevalent thing)
The Plugs and Sockets etc. (Safety) Regulations 1994
These Regulations re–enact with modifications the provisions of the Plugs and Sockets etc. (Safety) Regulations 1987 (S.I. 1987/603) and make provision for the first time for certain requirements to be satisfied in relation to appliances.
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I've a feeling it excludes items which are intended for installation by an electrician. But any appliance which is for immediate use by the general public must be fitted with a plug*. Not 100% on this though so happy to be proved wrong.
*plugtop, but don't say it 3 times!
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Sadly just learned after a google that she's in stage IV lung cancer and not long left.
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Many thanks - that's what I had in mind. Makes sense that there had to be an exclusion to cover things like this.
this is easy fix, I couldn't find specs for my fridge, and too lazy to pull it as all info at the back regarding load. Let's have 13A mcb then for a fridge circuit in a perfect scenario. I still inclined to put all exept hob/oven/ hot tap on 1 ring c. But still wondering what is the perfect wiring, how far will you go, guys
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13A MCB? Maybe a 13A fuse in an FCU. Feb by a suitable MCB and cable obviously.
This is still in the 'design by forum' method though. I'm reluctant to give step by step advice as this would be against the forum guidelines.
getting all sоur again, no one sane will build this over-designed circuit, I remind you this is your "dream circuit" now. Fridge plug has 13A fuse. The other electrician up the lines said no need for fcu, just isolator and single plug. All wires apart from the hob are 2.5mm. You can't agree between each other on what is right and you are still discovering regulations while we speak. So no point to be snobbish here
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I was questioning your idea of a 13A MCB. And I suggested an alternative, ie. a 13A fuse, whether that is in a plug or an FCU. But if you want to get hold of a 13A MCB then fair enough.
To be honest I think you're taking the mick a bit by expecting people to design your system for you and then being rude when they disagree with either you or your 'first electrician'.
And for that reason....... I'm out.
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thank you for you generous input, indeed 13A mcb are not common, that was a typo on a diagram. Also I just checked the similar fridge is 2.7kw so 16a mcb is good. As for isolator (fused or not) it is only needed if plug is not accessible (behind appliance, the fridge cable is long enough to put socket in near cabinet) or not? I've got it, those plugs are mostly down to personal preferences and additional safety and convenience for servicing. Otherwise those are not necessary (if socket is accessible)
IET - BS 7671 On-site Guide (2018): "Appliances built into kitchen furniture (integrated appliances) should be connected to a socket-outlet or switch fused connection unit that is accessible when the appliance is in place and in normal use. Alternatively, where an appliance is supplied from a socket-outlet or a connection unit, these should be controlled by an accessible double pole switch or switched fused connection unit."
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what if we keep part of main (whole house) ring circuit which is currently passing through the room for everything above worktops: like microwave, hood, boiler, and 2/3 double sockets. this way the worse case scenario total load for dedicated kitchen ring circuit will be under 32A . If we consider 1,76kw multicooker (used often), 1.2kw blender and 1.1kw mixer (occasionally) on above worktop sockets this could help to balance the load but might be more confusing for testing and CU labelling or is it very bad practice in your opinion?
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I think most people on here will know about diversity, division of circuits etc.
The way forward for you is to discuss this with your electrician.
Reply to Whole Kitchen wiring diagram advice (excluding lights) in the DIY Electrical Advice area at ElectriciansForums.net
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