AM2 Lighting

[Outspoken]

I guess as a dramatically failing apprentice my opinion doesnt count for much but Personally I think it's a lot easier to have neutrals at the switch, simply because second fixing a switch with a few cables at it is easier than second fixing most ceiling roses etc.
I also think its slightly safer for the DIYer who when changing a light only have 3 wires to put in the correct place, as opposed to loops, neutrals switch wires and earths. And then when they swap a switch its alot simpler for them to understand.
i had this debate with an old college tutor who said I shouldn't feed switches this way as its not good practice.

YB, just because your an apprentice does not mean you do not have a valid point to make, however I must point out that your lack of experience and thus understanding of the dangers shows through in your comments.

As KAS1 has said, you put neutrals in switches and you will have idiots switching them, OK if double pole, but not single pole. Whether we like it or not we have to regulate and work to take into the most stupid in society. Just because we, as sparks, would never dream of switching a neutral without a DP switch, or of using the neutral as in my example above is not the reason to simply allow this practice to continue.

The regulations are there not for the safety of the installer, but of the installation and end user, we have to assume the end user is a knob who has read the "Which Book of Home Electrics" and attended the B&Q 1/2 day lesson in home rewiring and thinks he knows what he is doing. The old saying of "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing" is 100% true in this instance.

 

[Silly Sausage]

That is bad practice unless there is absolutely no choice, neutrals should not be in switches.

Give us all, three good, valid reasons to justify that comment.

 

[Marvo]

....you put neutrals in switches and you will have idiots switching them.

The flip side to that coin is that if you loop your supply in and out of the switches then all your blacks are neutral, and all your reds are either live or switched live. The wiring makes more sense, less room for error because there's no sleeved blacks being used as switched lives etc. I think the chances of someone switching a neutral are no higher than it would be if the supply is looped through the fittings to be honest.

I still haven't seen any compelling electrical or safety reasons that make one method more preferable to the other.

 

[KAS1]

What a load a ---- you need a bit more experience in the electrical contracting industry IMO are you in maintenance by any chance, or is that the way it's done in SA do you have regs and GOOD WORKMANSHIP

The flip side to that coin is that if you loop your supply in and out of the switches then all your blacks are neutral, and all your reds are either live or switched live. The wiring makes more sense, less room for error because there's no sleeved blacks being used as switched lives etc. I think the chances of someone switching a neutral are no higher than it would be if the supply is looped through the fittings to be honest.

I still haven't seen any compelling electrical or safety reasons that make one method more preferable to the other.

 

[KAS1]

The more I read this I STILL CANT BELIVE the advice being given out lol

The flip side to that coin is that if you loop your supply in and out of the switches then all your blacks are neutral, and all your reds are either live or switched live. The wiring makes more sense, less room for error because there's no sleeved blacks being used as switched lives etc. I think the chances of someone switching a neutral are no higher than it would be if the supply is looped through the fittings to be honest.

I still haven't seen any compelling electrical or safety reasons that make one method more preferable to the other.

 

[Wolfie708]

Is it against the regs? If not on what grounds is it not acceptable?

The flip side to that coin is that if you loop your supply in and out of the switches then all your blacks are neutral, and all your reds are either live or switched live. The wiring makes more sense, less room for error because there's no sleeved blacks being used as switched lives etc. I think the chances of someone switching a neutral are no higher than it would be if the supply is looped through the fittings to be honest.

I still haven't seen any compelling electrical or safety reasons that make one method more preferable to the other.

There is more than one reason why it is a bad idea to connector joint neutrals in a switch box....

#1 There is a risk of a 'bad' connector joint. Examples are terminals becoming loose if connector has to be 'jiggled' in box to make switch plate fit correctly, conductor material becoming exposed because connector has to be 'bent over' to allow for switch housing to fit correctly etc. etc.
#2 Even an extra 3 conductors can cause a lot of trouble space wise, especially on a 3-Gang 2-Way switch, leading to possibilty of conductors being pushed hard against any 'sharp' part of switch box or fixing screws.
#3 Makes it more awkward to obtain true test results (Less of a risk, but still exists)

Basically, and apologies to anyone who prefers the 'neutral in a connector method' it is just bad practice to use this method.

As to having to over-sleeve etc, whether at light or switch ALL conductors should be correctly identified (you should use Brown/Brown T+E for strappers etc anyway......... Red/Red in your case)

 

[KAS1]

It must be the norm in SA lol

 

[Wolfie708]

It must be the norm in SA lol

Trust me mate, I'm England like yourself, and the work I have seen in the last 12months on just One site makes SA seem almost at the top of the tree lol

 

[Marvo]

NO NO NO That's when the DIYer start switching the N, IMO only take the N at a switch if it is required , not to save money and save reaching overhead lol

Hasn't standards dropped lol

If 1/10 sparks wired lighting circuits with neutrals at them for no reason, I think I'd know the Electrical Trainee lol and yes it is bad practice in the UK sackable on any decent job

Cowboy stuff that's why

Well said they'd be "down the road" on my jobs

What a load a ---- you need a bit more experience in the electrical contracting industry IMO are you in maintenance by any chance, or is that the way it's done in SA do you have regs and GOOD WORKMANSHIP

Pretty much sums up your last few posts on the matter. The best reason you've managed to come up with is that people might switch the neutrals but I'm still at a loss to see how it would be more likely than with any other installation method.

You're right, I live in Africa where we don't have regs and I do need more experience with complicated electric systems like domestic lighting but I'm a qualified plasterer and a professional forum moderator so I've seen plenty of light switches and I'd like to think I can understand the merits and pitfalls of different wiring schemes if you could explain them in words of few syllables and avoiding technical terms.

So back to the question of why it should be outlawed......

 

[Marvo]

It must be the norm in SA lol

Looping the supply through the switches is the norm is SA.

 

[KAS1]

Yeah let me put that another way, must be normal for the likes of Marvo from SA ( a moderator) to take N to switches for no reason whatsoever lol

Trust me mate, I'm England like yourself, and the work I have seen in the last 12months on just One site makes SA seem almost at the top of the tree lol

 

[KAS1]

WELL EXPLAIN THAT to our young lads you are telling IT'S OK to do in the UK

Looping the supply through the switches is the norm is SA.

 

[Marvo]

I was waiting for you to explain it to them seeing you're the one who's dead set against it.

 

[KAS1]

That explains a lot .............. lol

Pretty much sums up your last few posts on the matter. The best reason you've managed to come up with is that people might switch the neutrals but I'm still at a loss to see how it would be more likely than with any other installation method.

You're right, I live in Africa where we don't have regs and I do need more experience with complicated electric systems like domestic lighting but I'm a qualified plasterer and a professional forum moderator so I've seen plenty of light switches and I'd like to think I can understand the merits and pitfalls of different wiring schemes if you could explain them in words of few syllables and avoiding technical terms.

So back to the question of why it should be outlawed......

 

[Spudnik]

There is more than one reason why it is a bad idea to connector joint neutrals in a switch box....

#1 There is a risk of a 'bad' connector joint. Examples are terminals becoming loose if connector has to be 'jiggled' in box to make switch plate fit correctly, conductor material becoming exposed because connector has to be 'bent over' to allow for switch housing to fit correctly etc. etc.
#2 Even an extra 3 conductors can cause a lot of trouble space wise, especially on a 3-Gang 2-Way switch, leading to possibilty of conductors being pushed hard against any 'sharp' part of switch box or fixing screws.
#3 Makes it more awkward to obtain true test results (Less of a risk, but still exists)

Basically, and apologies to anyone who prefers the 'neutral in a connector method' it is just bad practice to use this method.

As to having to over-sleeve etc, whether at light or switch ALL conductors should be correctly identified (you should use Brown/Brown T+E for strappers etc anyway......... Red/Red in your case)

1)I am failing to understand why it is bad practice... how do you install downlights/wall lights?
2)If there will be a few cables in the box, a deeper box can be fitted to make sure everything fits without "squashing".
3) It makes for easier testing.

And, normal T&E sleeved if needed has been used for many, many years. The only time i have come across red/brown feed and lives is in conduit wiring.

Yeah let me put that another way, must be normal for the likes of Marvo from SA ( a moderator) to take N to switches for no reason whatsoever lol

Regardless of Marvo being a moderator, his opinions/experiences still count.

WELL EXPLAIN THAT to our young lads you are telling IT'S OK to do in the UK

As Marvo has asked many times, can you explain why it isnt ok? Can you also explain how you would install downlights/wall lights?


As far as i can see, there is absolutely no valid reason why the neutral cannot be dropped into the switch. Easier testing, easier to install additional lighting, easier to connect up the lighting.

 

[Knobhead]

There is more than one reason why it is a bad idea to connector joint neutrals in a switch box....

#1 There is a risk of a 'bad' connector joint. Examples are terminals becoming loose if connector has to be 'jiggled' in box to make switch plate fit correctly, conductor material becoming exposed because connector has to be 'bent over' to allow for switch housing to fit correctly etc. etc.
There is an equal risk in a three plate system.

#2 Even an extra 3 conductors can cause a lot of trouble space wise, especially on a 3-Gang 2-Way switch, leading to possibilty of conductors being pushed hard against any 'sharp' part of switch box or fixing screws.
If you look at my drawing there are three conductors between each switch point. How many in a conventional system. There is a way to get around that and use T&E but I’m sick and tired of shared neutral threads.

#3 Makes it more awkward to obtain true test results (Less of a risk, but still exists)
So you don’t know what you’re doing! I’ll bet you only run radials for sockets!


Basically, and apologies to anyone who prefers the 'neutral in a connector method' it is just bad practice to use this method.
Where does it state this is BAD practice?


As to having to over-sleeve etc, whether at light or switch ALL conductors should be correctly identified (you should use Brown/Brown T+E for strappers etc anyway......... Red/Red in your case)

BTW
I don’t advocate neutrals at switches unless there is a reason.
I answered the OP question with a drawing in “good faith!”

 

[Silly Sausage]

Ns in switches has had a few threads over the last year or so.
At first, I was a bit skeptical, but after reading those discussions, it makes perfect sense to me (depending on the situation).



Still waiting for the reasonS why it's 'Bad Practice'!

 

[Marvo]

I know the norm in the UK is the supply is looped through each light fitting but I'm not sure why it's such an emotive issue. We generally loop the supply through the switches but I'd use either system depending on mainly which was easier to install in that particular building. Apart from that the two systems seem swings and roundabouts regarding all the other pro's and con's.

 

[KAS1]

Give me strength..................................

 

[Wolfie708]

1)I am failing to understand why it is bad practice... how do you install downlights/wall lights?
2)If there will be a few cables in the box, a deeper box can be fitted to make sure everything fits without "squashing".
3) It makes for easier testing.

And, normal T&E sleeved if needed has been used for many, many years. The only time i have come across red/brown feed and lives is in conduit wiring.

Can you explain why it isnt? Can you also explain how you would install downlights/wall lights?


As far as i can see, there is absolutely no valid reason why the neutral cannot be dropped into the switch. Easier testing, easier to install additional lighting, easier to connect up the lighting.

#1 Personally I do not use T+E for wiring a lighting circuit. I use Brown/CPC and double covered Blue, but regardless of what I use, a wall light can easily accomodate either, and a down-light should always have a seperate joint box used anyway (the little plastic clip boxes they typically arrive with are useless and I just bin them lol)

#2 On a new build I agree with you, but a lot of re-wires have single brick walls that are not very helpful when trying to chop in a 35mm or deeper box

#3 Maybe a personal choice, but experience has taught me which is better for me (I am 44 btw so have just a teensy weensy bit of experience lol)

It has also been known for over-sleeving to fall off and not be put back on for years. Just because something has been done and is allowed does not mean it is the 'right' way to do it.

On the subject of making it easier to add lights, you then have to take into account that you will be added a 4th (maybe more?) neutral to a connector that is actually designed to accept one incoming and one outgoing conductor (unless you are talking about a connector that utilises a 'clamp' and not typical screw arrangement?)

There are many reasons, but the simplest one of all is that it IS bad practice as you are creating the risk of a bad joint where there is no need for one at all.