Blanks missing from CU in 2 senarios

[GBDamo]

I personally think every scenario is different.
Accessibility comes into it in my opinion.
For instance today I had a fused spur in the loft area supplying the tv amplifier for a small block of flats , cover not screwed back so exposed live parts.
Normally I would c1 this however the loft area is only accessible by step ladders ( non fitted internally) and the loft cover can only be opened by a hex key.
I did not c1 this in this scenario.

No light, hands groping round in the dark?? Ladder or not C1 all day long.

Your not there to do any favours, your there to cover YOUR arse not theirs.

 

[Nigel]

Any live working requires Risk assesment and method statements. Not just restricted access. As I said you shouldnt be working live not cant work live.

All works require RAMS. Not just live working.


In order to test and fault find you will almost certainly have to work live.

 

[Ian1981]

No light, hands groping round in the dark?? Ladder or not C1 all day long.

Your not there to do any favours, your there to cover YOUR arse not theirs.

It’s nowhere near the loft hatch.
You need to crawl in and across the walk boards to access it.
I never said I didn’t code it (C2) incase you care.
It’s my discretion as the inspector and no body else’s.

 

[westward10]

All works require RAMS. Not just live working.


In order to test and fault find you will almost certainly have to work live.

What has any of this to do with blank plates missing??

 

[Nigel]

No light, hands groping round in the dark?? Ladder or not C1 all day long.

Your not there to do any favours, your there to cover YOUR arse not theirs.

No you are there to give a concise report on the electrical installation as you find it and code appropriatly not code to ‘cover your arse’.

 

[westward10]

So all these Code 1s people dish out do you give notification of it on the day in writing.

 

[Nigel]

So all these Code 1s people dish out do you give notification of it on the day in writing.

Nope.

 

[GBDamo]

It’s nowhere near the loft hatch.
You need to crawl in and across the walk boards to access it.
I never said I didn’t code it (C2) incase you care.
It’s my discretion as the inspector and no body else’s.

It’s nowhere near the loft hatch.
You need to crawl in and across the walk boards to access it.
I never said I didn’t code it (C2) incase you care.
It’s my discretion as the inspector and no body else’s.

Your arse too.

With this type of thing you have to reword your decision in the patronising tones of a prosecution barrister.

But as you rightly say it’s your call.

 

[GBDamo]

So all these Code 1s people dish out do you give notification of it on the day in writing.

Email the EICR to bill payer

For urgent attention in subject box if C1s.

Chat with site if it’s something horrendous, don’t lick that bit kind of chat, you know the one.

 

[Ian1981]

Your arse too.

With this type of thing you have to reword your decision in the patronising tones of a prosecution barrister.

But as you rightly say it’s your call.

Again there’s a potential of danger but I can’t see an immediate risk to life hence no c1
It is a loft which is locked at a height in a block of communal flats to which no one has access.
I’ll live with my judgement and will sleep at night.
The report has an unsatisfactory outcome amongst other contributing factors so I believe my arse is indeed covered.

 

[JOURNEYMAN]

No. That path leads to non payment.

C1 requires immediate attention as it's immediate danger. If I come across any C1's, I inform the client immediately and make safe. Never had a problem with not getting paid when highlighting and acting on a dangerous situation.Better that than some kiddy comes along and sticks their mitts into it. Recently carried out an EICR on a rental property and I came across a young lad playing with the fuse board in the cupboard under the stairs.

 

[buzzlightyear]

C1 requires immediate attention as it's immediate danger. If I come across any C1's, I inform the client immediately and make safe. Never had a problem with not getting paid when highlighting and acting on a dangerous situation.Better that than some kiddy comes along and sticks their mitts into it. Recently carried out an EICR on a rental property and I came across a young lad playing with the fuse board in the cupboard

me says this on post #30 ,but is down to the test engineer what he puts down .once you have put any defects on the test sheet .and covered your a77. it now down to the customer .

 

[JOURNEYMAN]

[Q

me says this on post #30 ,but is down to the test engineer what he puts down .once you have put any defects on the test sheet .and covered your a77. it now down to the customer .

Most of my clients are Landlords who really don't want to end up in court and would rather I fix there and then if possible to avoid further call outs and risk to tenants. It's their call at the end of the day but for a simple fix like a missing blank it's better safe than sorry.

 

[MG201]

If the report(s) contained any C1's, shouldn't they have had the necessary remedial action taken immediately?

The problem arises when asked what work was done .can lead to disputes. And as a larger company sometimes it's seen as an open checkbook.

 

[JOURNEYMAN]

The problem arises when asked what work was done .can lead to disputes. And as a larger company sometimes it's seen as an open checkbook.

Yes, that's a good point and Buzzlightyears too. I guess that as a one man band with a good working relationship with my clients it comes down to trust. Now then, where did I park my Buggatti Chiron?

 

[Dillb]

All works require RAMS. Not just live working.


In order to test and fault find you will almost certainly have to work live.

Live working is a last resort. You know that as well as most other members on here.

 

[Nigel]

Live working is a last resort. You know that as well as most other members on here.

My guys live work every day. I say again. You cannot test or fault find without it.

 

[Midwest]

A Code 1 (C1) observation means ‘Danger present, risk of injury, Immediate remedial action required.’ It is an immediate threat and should be rectified or made safe as soon as possible. An example of a C1 defect would be accessible live conductors due to damage, poorly modified enclosures or removed maintenance panels. Incorrect polarity would also attract a code C1 as it may allow conductive parts, not normally expected to be live, to become live.

The presence of a code C1 warrants immediate action to be taken which would be to inform the duty holder or responsible person for the installation immediately, both verbally and in writing, of the risk of injury that exists.

A Code 2 (C2) is a potentially dangerous defect, these might be things that don’t pose an immediate threat but are likely to become a danger in the future. A C2 is described as ‘Potentially dangerous – urgent remedial action required.’

The phrase “potentially dangerous”, in the C2 code is designed to point towards a risk of injury from contact with live parts after a sequence of events. A sequence of events could mean that an individual may gain access to live parts through a day to day task that would not be expected to give access to live parts.

An observation code FI is described as ‘Further investigation required without delay.’ This means that your electrical contractor has observed something whilst carrying out the testing for instance emergency lights seem very dim. This might not have been covered in the report so they have noted it separately as code FI.

Codes C1 and C2 attract unsatisfactory report findings and you’ll have to have these defects rectified in order to prove compliance. A report could also be classed as unsatisfactory if the only fault codes are FI. An example would be when there are lots of circuits that are not verified at the time of testing, this is because the inspector would not be able to categorically say that these circuits are safe or not.

Code 3 is described as ‘Improvement recommended.’ This means it does not comply with the regulations but isn’t actually dangerous. A code C3 should imply that the installation is not necessarily dangerous but it may not comply with the current version of the regulations or for example, may have damaged fittings that do not have exposed live parts. A code C3, in itself, should not warrant an overall unsatisfactory report.

You will need to address C1, C2 and FI faults on your report in order to achieve compliance. Once faults have been rectified and your electrician has issued you with the relevant paperwork, Electrical Installation Certificate (EIC) or Minor Works Certificate (MW) these should be kept together with the EICR to prove all faults have been rectified in accordance with BS7671.

Unusual for you buzz to put forward more that a few sentences. I nearly got a nose bleed

 

[westward10]

You two still discussing mcb blanks.

 

[Midwest]

For instance today I had a fused spur in the loft area supplying the tv amplifier for a small block of flats , cover not screwed back so exposed live parts.
Normally I would c1 this however the loft area is only accessible by step ladders ( non fitted internally) and the loft cover can only be opened by a hex key.
I did not c1 this in this scenario.

Could you not just screw back the fused spur back, and save a few trees, or electrical emails.

Edit Oopps, hoisted by my own petard

 

[buzzlightyear]

You two still discussing mcb blanks.

 

[Midwest]

I preferred the follow on vid, or was that my google ad, ---- quick delete the Russian housewives!

 

[123]

Hit, nail and head spring to mind

C1 if at a low level and you can see the copper
C2 if at a high level and if you can see copper

BUT ifs it when doing an EICR, I would probably get one out of the van and fit it ............ unless the installation is a pile of poo!

I don't see why there would be a difference between high level and low level in this scenario?

It's like saying light switch missing, exposed live parts - C1. Ceiling rose missing, exposed live parts - C2.

 

[Darkwood]

Please can we remind members to reply to each other with respect and a polite manner, a post has been deleted for mocking another member, let's not slip into personal attacks, having a difference of opinion is inevitable given the industry and the ambiguity of the Regs, if you believe someone is wrong then make your case an if possible back it up while at the same time been respectful and polite.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I would apply a code C2 in both scenarios.
There is a potential for danger.

 

[Wonderwall]

Any opinion on the rates offered. There is aprox 27 boards all with various amounts of blanks missing . All within a 10 min walikng distance . Eg 10 min from first to last. Not 10 min from 1 to the next

 

[Nigel]

I don't see why there would be a difference between high level and low level in this scenario?

It's like saying light switch missing, exposed live parts - C1. Ceiling rose missing, exposed live parts - C2.

Most ceiling roses can be easily reached from ground level.

How can an exposed conductive part at say 4 meters up be an immediate danger to life or property?

 

[Nigel]

I would apply a code C2 in both scenarios.
There is a potential for danger.

A C2 for an exposed conductive part available to touch?

 

[Nigel]

Please can we remind members to reply to each other with respect and a polite manner, a post has been deleted for mocking another member, let's not slip into personal attacks, having a difference of opinion is inevitable given the industry and the ambiguity of the Regs, if you believe someone is wrong then make your case an if possible back it up while at the same time been respectful and polite.

That looks like mine that was deleted. It was meant as tongue in cheek, hence the winky smiley face.

I did not have @Dillb down as a sensitive soul.

@Dillb I apologise if I hurt your feelings.

 

[westward10]

I would apply a code C2 in both scenarios.
There is a potential for danger.

I agree, there is potential. Seems to me people jump on the Code 1 train at every opportunity, I rarely note a Code 1.

 

[Nigel]

I agree, there is potential. Seems to me people jump on the Code 1 train at every opportunity, I rarely note a Code 1.

I also hardly ever issue C1s but an exposed conductive part available to touch is a C1. There is no debate about it in my opinion.

 

[Darkwood]

That looks like mine that was deleted. It was meant as tongue in cheek, hence the winky smiley face.

No worries, rib tickling and banter are fine lines to play on the forum, and is a card that is easily overplayed given that your only real knowledge of other members is their name and avatar mst of the time, the worst time to post it does tend to be after a disagreement of position. Playing such a card at the right time is an art in itself given the natural design of forums to mask members identities.
Yes I noted it was probably done more in a jovial context and given your apology I'm sure all is resolved

I don't think Dilb is a sensitive soul as you put it, it was just given the little to an fro between you both prior it was just a little misjudged to post it and sensing it could become something more he felt it best to nip it in the bud, I did agree with the position that it can be taken personally giving the previous posts leading to it hence my interjection.

 

[westward10]

Of course there is debate as there are no guidelines. There is potential to cause harm and of course the style of dist board may affect the decision.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

A C2 for an exposed conductive part available to touch?

I wouldn’t apply a code for an exposed conductive part available to touch.

 

[Nigel]

I wouldn’t apply a code for an exposed conductive part available to touch.

Ok

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Ok

I’m in my kitchen at the moment.
In my kitchen are 2 radiators, a fridge freezer, washing machine, kettle, pedal bin, stainless steel sink, microwave, toaster, 3 door handles some cutlery, amongst other things.
All are conductive and all are exposed to touch.

I can see you having fun with metal CUs.

 

[MG201]

I would apply a code C2 in both scenarios.
There is a potential for danger.

Just shows how much the regs are down to the individual to interpret. I understand every case is diffrent e.g. location access etc.

 

[Nigel]

I’m in my kitchen at the moment.
In my kitchen are 2 radiators, a fridge freezer, washing machine, kettle, pedal bin, stainless steel sink, microwave, toaster, 3 door handles some cutlery, amongst other things.
All are conductive and all are exposed to touch.

I can see you having fun with metal CUs.

Well done. You got me there.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Just shows how much the regs are down to the individual to interpret. I understand every case is diffrent e.g. location access etc.

It’s not an interpretation, it’s an application of the Regulations as written.

 

[Nigel]

It’s not an interpretation, it’s an application of the Regulations as written.

Which are totally open to interpretation.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Which are totally open to interpretation.

Code C2 for missing blank plate.
Code C1 for exposed ‘live’ conductive parts.

 

[Risteard]

It’s not an interpretation, it’s an application of the Regulations as written.

Not sure how bins, radiators etc. would meet the BS7671 definition of exposed conductive parts... They don't form part of the electrical installation.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Not sure how bins, radiators etc. would meet the BS7671 definition of exposed conductive parts... They don't form part of the electrical installation.

A metal CU does.
Metal conduit does.
Metal clad sockets do.
Face plate screws do.
Etc.

 

[solarsavings]

Not in the same way a buss bar does.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I would 99.9% of the time code a missing blank as C1 and I rarely give C1's.

It's a great big hole with a big piece of live copper behind it which is easily touchable!

 

[westward10]

Yes a potential danger which is not the standing of a Code 1.

 

[Nigel]

Yes a potential danger which is not the standing of a Code 1.

What would you consider a C1?

 

[westward10]

What would you consider a C1?

I think the Code definitions are poorly defined. Code 1 Danger present, what does that actually actually represent. Code 2 Potentially dangerous is clear that there is potential for an incident. An mcb blank missing offers a potential to danger.
So what is Danger present?

 

[Nigel]

I think the Code definitions are poorly defined. Code 1 Danger present, what does that actually actually represent. Code 2 Potentially dangerous is clear that there is potential for an incident. An mcb blank missing offers a potential to danger.
So what is Danger present?

Answer my question first.

 

[westward10]

No.