Borrowed neutral question.

[schoe]

Just out of interest if i was to fit a new dual rcd split board and a came across a borrowed netural on a lighting circuit how could i resolve it?


Thanks Chris

 

[oxocube]

The correct solution is to install a new neutral to the the correct lighting circuit.

The other incorrect option is to combine the circuits on one breaker. Problem being, breaker trips and no lighting any where in house.

Also professional sparks carry out a test and inspection before doing the cu change.

 

[Rappid]

I always carry out a insulation resistance and continunity across the lighting neutrals before any consumer unit change.

 

[ezzzekiel]

The other incorrect option is to combine the circuits on one breaker.

not an incorrect option its a accepted method , just the lazy option.

 

[miner69er]

it is not a lazy option, don't know where you guys live but try explaining to my customers you need to add another neutral to the circuit which involves more money and maybe decorating afterwards depending on routing of cables. most customers don't want to spend the money we ask to change a consumer unit.....(they think it can all be done for £20-00)

 

[TPES]

Even when test are performed before a CU change it makes no difference anyway, the CU is getting changed so you still have the same problems.

 

[Hawk81]

it is not a lazy option, don't know where you guys live but try explaining to my customers you need to add another neutral to the circuit which involves more money and maybe decorating afterwards depending on routing of cables. most customers don't want to spend the money we ask to change a consumer unit.....(they think it can all be done for £20-00)

I don't know where you live either but leaving a borrowed neutral is lazy and dangerous. In my book it should always be rectified.

 

[Rappid]

Even when test are performed before a CU change it makes no difference anyway, the CU is getting changed so you still have the same problems.

You're right, it makes no difference. At least you can inform the customer the problems and ask them if they want you to rectify it, you can also set out your CU to take in account of the borrowed neutral.

 

[Ponty Massive]

I don't know where you live either but leaving a borrowed neutral is lazy and dangerous. In my book it should always be rectified.

Can't agree with that. In what way is it dangerous? I did a CU change a few days back. Explained to the customer about the borrowed neutral and how it would effect them. They didn't want the extra work and were happy to put both lighting circuits on one mcb. Made a note on the cert as to why I had done it!!!!!

I'm sure that's a lot safer than the old 3036 board they had before with a borrowed neutral over two fuses!!

 

[Hawk81]

I can not understand for the life of me anyone trying to justify a borrowed nuetral. Ok so it is slighty safer the 2 circuits being on one mcb but it is still far from safe and is not meeting with the regs as to minimise disruption if there is a fault. No excuse for leaving any circuit with a borrowed neutral is valid to me.

 

[oxocube]

In what way is it dangerous?

I can't believe an electrician said that.

 

[Hawk81]

I can't believe an electrician said that.

Exactly what I was thinking!

 

[Knobhead]

I can't believe an electrician said that.

The customer has the final say.
Or are you one of those money grubbing supposed electricians that will spout regulations ad-nauseam until you browbeat the customer in to submission.
What Ponty said was perfectly valid.

 

[Rappid]

The customer has the final say.
Or are you one of those supposed electricians that will spout regulations ad-nauseam until you browbeat the customer in to submission.
What Ponty said was perfectly valid.

I agree. I usually get called in once the the decorating has been done and the new carpet layed, the customer won't have the ceilings or walls ripped apart again.

 

[oxocube]

The customer has the final say.
Or are you one of those supposed electricians that will spout regulations ad-nauseam until you browbeat the customer in to submission.
What Ponty said was perfectly valid.

So you agree with him that borrowed neutrals are not dangerous. lol.

To isolate a borrowed neutral you need to pull two fuses, is that safe?
In the event of a circuit fault the cpd has been doubled in size, is that safe?
And putting all the lights on one circuit does not comply with the regs, re inconvenience, design and separation of circuits.

And you cannot abrogate your professional responsibiliy by getting a customer to agree to something when they are not qualified to make such a judgement.

Customers will ask for all kinds of things that do not comply with the regs, either do the the job properly or don't do it all

 

[Ponty Massive]

If the two circuits are put into one, the neutral is no longer "borrowed". I agree it may not conform to 17th regs with the inconvenience of two lighting circuits being placed on one circuit, however this is not a complete rewire, its a CU change! What's to say in this situation there wasn't a third lighting circuit which could have been placed on a different rcd?

Anyway, are you telling me if your customer didn't want to have their house pulled apart or go to the expense of putting new wiring in, you would not change the CU for them?

 

[Ponty Massive]

I can't believe an electrician said that.

Get back on your 3 week DI course son !!!

 

[Knobhead]

Did Ponty or I mention two supply points? One MCB for the two circuits.

Get your facts straight before pontificating on the skills of others. Walk away if you can’t uphold your argument!

 

[oxocube]

Get back on your 3 week DI course son !!!

Losing the argument so you get abusive.lol

"son" pathetic or what lol

 

[oxocube]

Did Ponty or I mention two supply points? One MCB for the two circuits.

Get your facts straight before pontificating on the skills of others. Walk away if you can’t uphold your argument!

I've explained my argument and you have no valid response.

What you both said is "borrowed neutrals are not dangerous"and that is plain nonsense.

 

[Ponty Massive]

Oxo, I'm sat here with a smile on my face and giggling to myself. If you disagree with what I have said, then tell me why you think this is so dangerous by putting both circuits on the same MCB?

Also if the customer would not have you putting in new circuits....what would you do??

 

[Ponty Massive]

What you both said is "borrowed neutrals are not dangerous"and that is plain nonsense.

Where did we say that??????

 

[oxocube]

I'm sat here .... giggling to myself.

Why are'nt I surprised.

 

[oxocube]

Can't agree with that. In what way is it dangerous?

This was your response to post No 9.

 

[Ponty Massive]

Why are'nt I surprised.

Now who's getting abusive?

So can you answer my question or not??

 

[Ponty Massive]

Can't agree with that. In what way is it dangerous? I did a CU change a few days back. Explained to the customer about the borrowed neutral and how it would effect them. They didn't want the extra work and were happy to put both lighting circuits on one mcb. Made a note on the cert as to why I had done it!!!!!

I'm sure that's a lot safer than the old 3036 board they had before with a borrowed neutral over two fuses!!

You mean this one?

 

[oxocube]

What Ponty said was perfectly valid.

That means he agrees with you

 

[Rappid]

If the two circuits are put into one, the neutral is no longer "borrowed". I agree it may not conform to 17th regs with the inconvenience of two lighting circuits being placed on one circuit, however this is not a complete rewire, its a CU change! What's to say in this situation there wasn't a third lighting circuit which could have been placed on a different rcd?

Anyway, are you telling me if your customer didn't want to have their house pulled apart or go to the expense of putting new wiring in, you would not change the CU for them?

Is it not safer to have a CU with 2 lighting circuits on 1 MCB and RCD protection than having no RCD protection whatsoever??

 

[Knobhead]

For Christ’s sake never go in to industrial control. British industry is on it’s knees as it is.
50 fuses or MCB’s returning on a common 0V neutral bus isn’t uncommon, and I’m not talking ELV here.

 

[Knobhead]

That means he agrees with you

Yes I fully agree with Ponty I can’t make it any clearer!

 

[oxocube]

If you disagree with what I have said, then tell me why you think this is so dangerous by putting both circuits on the same MCB?

I don't think its dangerous.

Also if the customer would not have you putting in new circuits....what would you do??

I would have tested and found the borrowed neutrals before the change and if the customer refused the rectification works, I would walk away.

 

[Rappid]

I would have tested and found the borrowed neutrals before the change and if the customer refused the rectification works, I would walk away.

I'm sure the customer would find another electrician who would change the CU.

 

[Hawk81]

Ponty while I do not agree with you on this thread I was hoping to see a good debate on the subject but your poor attitude has ruined it. What need was there to belittle another forum member by calling them "son" and "get back to your 3 week coarse"?? Hope you feel big now. I still stand by my statement that borrowed neutrals are dangerous and if you can't see how then its is maybe you who needs more education.

 

[oxocube]

50 fuses or MCB’s returning on a common 0V neutral bus isn’t uncommon,[/QUOTE]

Yes thats found in every fuseboard in the world. And for you to make that comparison with borrowed neutral shows that you don't understand what a borrowed neutral is, and thats why you wrongly believe they are not dangerous.

 

[Hawk81]

I'm sure the customer would find another electrician who would change the CU.

I have saw a lot of unsatisfactory work done by other "electricians" that I would not do.

 

[Rappid]

same here, because everybody has their own interpretation of the regs. i.e. is that glass half full or half empty

 

[Ponty Massive]

Hawk, I also enjoy a debate on questions like this and seeing other peoples view, but when I make an input to the debate and in return get a comment like this...

I can't believe an electrician said that.

...then the standard of the thread looks to be set.


I do agree a borrowed neutral can be dangerous and that's why I feel it's safer to change the board for an RCD type and put both circuits on the same MCB as aposed to leaving in a 3036 board with a borrowed neutral let across two fuses.

 

[oxocube]

I do agree a borrowed neutral can be dangerous

Thats strange you said in post No 9 they are not dangerous, perhaps you've learnt something today.

 

[Ponty Massive]

Thats strange you said in post No 9 they are not dangerous, perhaps you've learnt something today.

If you are going to use one of my quotes (#9) then at least have the decency to use the whole quote (#26) to try and attack me!

 

[Engineer54]

If you are going to use one of my quotes (#9) then at least have the decency to use the whole quote (#26) to try and attack me!

Someones trying to make a mountain out of a molehill here. Either that or they haven't read what you have written, in the way you intended.

 

[ezzzekiel]

the borrowed neutral on a single mcb no longer becomes a borrowed neutral and thus is no longer dangerous (loading may be an issue) which is exactly what has been said (not that a borrowed neutral is not dangerous as is being claimed was said) and it is an accepted method by all scheme providers to overcome the problem.

alternatively run in a new cable which would be the prefered method but not always available depending on the run, cost or damage to decor.

anyone claiming any different to the above two options are talking dribble.

 

[oxocube]

If you are going to use one of my quotes (#9) then at least have the decency to use the whole quote (#26) to try and attack me!

I think you're the one doing the attacking, I'm just trying to put the record straight.

This post is No 9 - Hawk81 said "I don't know where you live either but leaving a borrowed neutral is lazy and dangerous. In my book it should always be rectified."

In responce Ponty said "Can't agree with that. In what way is it dangerous?"

Thats Ponty clearly stating they are not dangerous.

Then in post No 37 Ponty said "I do agree a borrowed neutral can be dangerous"

The words in quotes are what was actually said.

 

[telectrix]

the usual scenario of a "borrowed neutral" is where the landing light takes its neutral from the upstairs lighting cct. and it's line from the downstairs cct., fed via the 2 way switching arrangement, so, in my book this is a "borrowed live" and as such, the borrowed live should be removed and replaced with a feed from the upstairs circuit. this would ental an extra conductor between the switches, either by wiring in a single, or replacing the T/E with 3core/E. customers are often unwilling to have their nice wallpaper chased, so that is the reason for the compromises outlined previously. personally, i'd mnodify the circuit, redecorate, and do without the new bog/microwave/200kW shower/iphone/overpriced stilettos/ballet lessons/horse riding (for the sprogs) etc.etc.

 

[Engineer54]

oxocube,

Why don't you just admit, that you misread what Ponty was saying?? He has never said, or implied that a shared neutral situation wasn't dangerous.... Then the thread can be left to it's natural conclusion!!

 

[oxocube]

Why don't you just admit, that you misread what Ponty was saying?? He has never said, or implied that a shared neutral situation wasn't dangerous.... Then the thread can be left to it's natural conclusion!!

It could do if people stopped telling lies.

How can you possibly argue against what I've said in post No. 42, perhaps you have a hidden agenda.

 

[oxocube]

so, in my book this is a "borrowed live" and as such, the borrowed live should be removed and replaced with a feed from the upstairs circuit.

Thats a spanner in the works. lol

 

[telectrix]

more like a monkey wrench.

 

[Engineer54]

Not I, .....

Your now twisting things, to suit your misplaced argument. No-one here has said or implied that a shared neutral isn't potentially dangerous. You have been given the reason for using a common MCB for both lighting circuits. It's not ideal at all, it's not electrically dangerous either. Unfortunately, some householders cannot be swayed or convinced to have the remedial work done. ...Everything else has been said on this subject. Whether you like the outcome or not, it really doesn't matter the householder is either willing to pay or they are not, ..end of!!

 

[topquark]

If I may add my two cents worth having just read through the thread Ponty has rectified it, he's put the two (well one and a half) circuits on the same MCB, which whilst not an ideal solution; is fine in most circumstances. The possible neutral overload has now been avoided, if it keeps taking the out the MCB, then it almost certainly wasn't safe before.

The premise of the debate seemed to be centered around an inference of Ponty saying it wasn't dangerous, if he thought it wasn't dangerous he wouldn't have rectified it.

 

[Engineer54]

Here we go again!!! This again, ....getting too silly for words!!!