Borrowed neutral question.

[ezzzekiel]

the borrowed neutral on a single mcb no longer becomes a borrowed neutral and thus is no longer dangerous (loading may be an issue) which is exactly what has been said (not that a borrowed neutral is not dangerous as is being claimed was said) and it is an accepted method by all scheme providers to overcome the problem.

alternatively run in a new cable which would be the prefered method but not always available depending on the run, cost or damage to decor.

anyone claiming any different to the above two options are talking dribble.

 

[oxocube]

If you are going to use one of my quotes (#9) then at least have the decency to use the whole quote (#26) to try and attack me!

I think you're the one doing the attacking, I'm just trying to put the record straight.

This post is No 9 - Hawk81 said "I don't know where you live either but leaving a borrowed neutral is lazy and dangerous. In my book it should always be rectified."

In responce Ponty said "Can't agree with that. In what way is it dangerous?"

Thats Ponty clearly stating they are not dangerous.

Then in post No 37 Ponty said "I do agree a borrowed neutral can be dangerous"

The words in quotes are what was actually said.

 

[telectrix]

the usual scenario of a "borrowed neutral" is where the landing light takes its neutral from the upstairs lighting cct. and it's line from the downstairs cct., fed via the 2 way switching arrangement, so, in my book this is a "borrowed live" and as such, the borrowed live should be removed and replaced with a feed from the upstairs circuit. this would ental an extra conductor between the switches, either by wiring in a single, or replacing the T/E with 3core/E. customers are often unwilling to have their nice wallpaper chased, so that is the reason for the compromises outlined previously. personally, i'd mnodify the circuit, redecorate, and do without the new bog/microwave/200kW shower/iphone/overpriced stilettos/ballet lessons/horse riding (for the sprogs) etc.etc.

 

[Engineer54]

oxocube,

Why don't you just admit, that you misread what Ponty was saying?? He has never said, or implied that a shared neutral situation wasn't dangerous.... Then the thread can be left to it's natural conclusion!!

 

[oxocube]

Why don't you just admit, that you misread what Ponty was saying?? He has never said, or implied that a shared neutral situation wasn't dangerous.... Then the thread can be left to it's natural conclusion!!

It could do if people stopped telling lies.

How can you possibly argue against what I've said in post No. 42, perhaps you have a hidden agenda.

 

[oxocube]

so, in my book this is a "borrowed live" and as such, the borrowed live should be removed and replaced with a feed from the upstairs circuit.

Thats a spanner in the works. lol

 

[telectrix]

more like a monkey wrench.

 

[Engineer54]

Not I, .....

Your now twisting things, to suit your misplaced argument. No-one here has said or implied that a shared neutral isn't potentially dangerous. You have been given the reason for using a common MCB for both lighting circuits. It's not ideal at all, it's not electrically dangerous either. Unfortunately, some householders cannot be swayed or convinced to have the remedial work done. ...Everything else has been said on this subject. Whether you like the outcome or not, it really doesn't matter the householder is either willing to pay or they are not, ..end of!!

 

[topquark]

If I may add my two cents worth having just read through the thread Ponty has rectified it, he's put the two (well one and a half) circuits on the same MCB, which whilst not an ideal solution; is fine in most circumstances. The possible neutral overload has now been avoided, if it keeps taking the out the MCB, then it almost certainly wasn't safe before.

The premise of the debate seemed to be centered around an inference of Ponty saying it wasn't dangerous, if he thought it wasn't dangerous he wouldn't have rectified it.

 

[Engineer54]

Here we go again!!! This again, ....getting too silly for words!!!

 

[telectrix]

No - the customer does not have the final say when it comes to asking an electrician to contravene the Wiring Regulations.

if the customer won't pay, then you have to do the best you can with what you've got. remember BS7671 is non-statutory, and as long as you've left the installation safe, then the inconvenience of losing all lights in the event of a fault is the hard cheese of the skinfint customer, and if he falls down the stairs due to his own greed and miserlines, then TOUGH TITTY.

 

[Rappid]

No - the customer does not have the final say when it comes to asking an electrician to contravene the Wiring Regulations.

The customer does have the final say, providing it's safe to do so, it's a departure from BS7671. You cannot force the customer to have work done to comply with current regs i.e. CU change but no CPC on lighting, you cannot force the customer to have the lighting circuits rewired or put in CPC, you just make it safe by class 2 fittings, nylon screws and note it as a departure from BS7671

 

[ezzzekiel]

Shall we look, with proper multi-quoting, at what Ponty wrote?

nah lets not bother and just move on !!

 

[Engineer54]

Told you, ....this is going to be another of those threads that just gets too silly to contribute too further!!!

Funny how some contradict themselves, from one thread to another too!!...lol!!!

 

[Guest123]

Then you can't certify compliance with BS 7671.

With that out of the window, what alternative will you pick to prove compliance with P1?



Yes.

Which you've changed in a way which doesn't comply with BS 7671 - you said so yourself.



Nothing. Nor is there anything to say that there wasn't emergency lighting.



Can it be done in compliance with BS 7671?

My Q would be what would you do about it and indeed have you ever done it???

 

[Knobhead]

No - the customer does not have the final say when it comes to asking an electrician to contravene the Wiring Regulations.

The customer does have the final say. **** off! You’re just pumping the job up.

Enter Joe from the tap room of the local, “I can do that”!

 

[onions1066]

4mm protecting a 1.5kw shower? that would be a very poor shower/dribble. i think this thread could of been finished within 5 posts, get rid of the borrowed neutral if it's an option if you cant double the live conductors up in 1 mcb, nothing wrong with either option job sorted. to be honest i joined this forum just to have a look what was happening out in the electrical world outside my little bubble but there seems to be a lot of bitching on here. In my opinion electricians have it tough enough as it is anyway out there with all the undercutting, constant regulation changes and last but not least being hated by every other trade, to argue between each other is ridiculous. Come on guys feel the love :devilish:

 

[onions1066]

and finally yes i agree with Tony customer has the final say as long as it is withtin the scope of the regulations. nothing more to say surely

 

[telectrix]

Indeed.

But if you're registered with NICEIC/NAPIT etc, don't the terms of your registration say that your work must comply with it?

And where the work is done in England or Wales, if you can't claim compliance with BS 7671, what route will you take to ensure compliance with P1?



No - that's not tough titty, it's you failing in your duty of care to your client and acting unprofessionally.

my " duty of care to the client" is to advise him/ner what needs to be done to comply and advise of the cost. if the client won't pay for this work, are you suggesting that i do it for free? if so, you're welcome to come and work for me, for nothing, if that's your view.

 

[Guest123]

Simple - if I couldn't discharge my duty of care, if I couldn't act with professionalism, if I could not certify that to the best of my knowledge and belief my work complied with BS 7671 when in my professional opinion it should, I'd walk away.

Sorry you mis-understand my question,

What I meant was have you ever actually picked up a toolbox gone to a customers house and tried doing any of this sparky malarky for real....or just sat behind your monitor surrounded by every electrical textbook in christendom waiting to multiquote & belittle anyone that dares to have an opinion of their own which doesn't happen to match yours???