DIYers/Builders...when will it end

[Knobhead]

Walk into a food wholesalers as an unknown - not much chance of getting anything. Walk into an electrical wholesaler as an unknown, get what you want and probably some free advice to boot. Joke!

Good job I’ve got my public food hygiene and gas safe certificates.

 

[i=p/u]

soon as rcd hit the scenes , it started to go down hill, but do not rely on rcd as sole means of protection

 

[micknew]

All DIYers need to do is buy material from B&Q or an electrical wholesaler then ask questions on here.
Sparks on an ego trip will fall over themselves to answer their questions.

 

[piratebillybob]

B&Q need to give more advice and information not less.

the sale of electrical equipment to the public is never going to be "restricted" and there are always going to be "have a go" diy'ers who think they can do it.

So the best thing to do is to inform and educate without necessarily promoting.

All purchases of electrical equipment should be provided with information about the dangers of doing electrical diy, what they can and cant do as DIY. The legal implications and dangers if they go beyond their diy parameters

They should include simple "best practise guides" on electrical installation and some do's and donts.

Lights and sockets isnt rocket science. DIY electrics doesnt kill people, bad DIY electrics does.

And sure giving more information may deter some, encourage others but at least theyll (hopefully) be doing the job right when they do it.

 

[plugsandsparks]

What i say to my customers is " you have to be unlucky to die from an electric shock at 240V" its the fires that kill you.
What i have seen cause fires is equipment failing, getting very hot but the breakers still pumping juice into the load until it gets so hot it catches fire. Then eventually the wiring gets burned and the breaker pops but the fire is already going.
Thats why i am a big fan of RCDs, even though they are a pain, not because it reduces the chance of an electric shock but simply it should trip long before a fire is even brewing.
And guess what the number of times i come across breakers larger than the current carrying capacity of the cable and what the load needs is way too common and quite mis-understood in terms of what happens when the load is faulty.
Let B&Q sell RCDs and CUs, the more out there the better and i've just ordered a new swanky clamp meter for testing these beasts so more work for me.

 

[D80]

Thing is mate
DIY electrics, as in, buying a few sockets and doing electrical work in your home would be comparible to buying a few sausages from the supermarket and cooking them in your home. If you are at a food wholsaler, it is almost certainly not gonna be for personal use, whereas an elec wholesaler it could well be.
And if elec wholsalers started being gay about who they sell to, people would just buy stuff off the net, and the wholesalers will suffer.
It would be near impossible to blanket control the sale of elec goods

It will never ever ever happen.
Why?
Not enough people are dying.

Sockets are one thing, Part Pee is supposed to be law. You can buy a socket to replace an existing, or bluff as such and add another. Consumer Units need notification, unless you want to tell me they are at all likely to be used in a non domestic environment.

If you want to DIY it badly enough you will get the gear. But it shouldn't be as freely available, from sheds to wholesalers, complete with guides and (bad) advice. It may be only a matter of time before we see an Asda smart price consumer unit, there is a gap in the market for it!
You don't need to be a chef to cook a dinner at home, nor do you need anything other than a pan and an oven. To fit a CU you need the equipment to test after install! And if England and Wales need to notify the job, something you don't need to do if you cook a turkey dinner with all the trimmings at home. More folk probably die of food poisoning than electrocution, but no law or regulations govern cooking at home.

 

[D80]

B&Q need to give more advice and information not less.

the sale of electrical equipment to the public is never going to be "restricted" and there are always going to be "have a go" diy'ers who think they can do it.

So the best thing to do is to inform and educate without necessarily promoting.

All purchases of electrical equipment should be provided with information about the dangers of doing electrical diy, what they can and cant do as DIY. The legal implications and dangers if they go beyond their diy parameters

They should include simple "best practise guides" on electrical installation and some do's and donts.

Lights and sockets isnt rocket science. DIY electrics doesnt kill people, bad DIY electrics does.

And sure giving more information may deter some, encourage others but at least theyll (hopefully) be doing the job right when they do it.

Regarding likes of a CU - they should simply advise if you ain't a spark, you ain't getting it.

If you can't replace a socket or do likes of 2 way lighting without a guide - then you shouldn't be getting the accessories you need to do the task. Nowt to do with keeping sparks in work, they will obviously get the repair work that is obvious (if CPC etc has fallen out of back of socket, it may be too late then!).

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Regarding likes of a CU - they should simply advise if you ain't a spark, you ain't getting it.

If you can't replace a socket or do likes of 2 way lighting without a guide - then you shouldn't be getting the accessories you need to do the task. Nowt to do with keeping sparks in work, they will obviously get the repair work that is obvious (if CPC etc has fallen out of back of socket, it may be too late then!).

wont happen though....free trade n all that...and the right to trade n all......the foundations of this country were built on it......our whole society is based on it.....

 

[D80]

What's it got to do with free trade? Unless letting a builder masquerade as a spark is part of free trade.

I can't get a job as a solicitor cause, well I ain't a solicitor. That's nowt to do with free trade, its about being bloody qualified in your industry.

If anything Part Pee is an infraction on free trade! Only in Part Pee is a 5 week wonder deemed competent whereas a time served long serving commercial / industrial spark deemed not so!

 

[Andy78]

This thread has prompted me to look at the electrical section in my B&Q "you can do it" book that someone bought me once. Interesting reading that's for sure. There seems to be just enough arse covering to get away with what they are encouraging people to do. Some of it's bloody awful though. Their guide to replacing a broken socket for eg. Isolate circuit and double check with a plug in socket tester. Use a socket tester on a broken socket to check for dead ? really ?

 

[D80]

They should rename the book "You can do it, but its probably not legal", don't know how they can get away with it tbh.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

What's it got to do with free trade? Unless letting a builder masquerade as a spark is part of free trade.

I can't get a job as a solicitor cause, well I ain't a solicitor. That's nowt to do with free trade, its about being bloody qualified in your industry.

If anything Part Pee is an infraction on free trade! Only in Part Pee is a 5 week wonder deemed competent whereas a time served long serving commercial / industrial spark deemed not so!

but the right to sell certainly IS about free trade.....and it was this that i was gettin at.....i think many in here know what i think about 5 week wonders.....

 

[Engineer54]

Sounds like the wanna-be electrical police are rattling there cages again!!...lol!!!

What's the betting, that it is sparks themselves that are buying these CUs from the likes of B&Q, and rarely by Joe public. And when they do buy them, are probably trying to cut material expenses when employing an electrician to do the work...

Don't know why these people complain about stores like B&Q, electrical goods have always been available to the public in retail outlets, so what's so different now?? Those that come out with those daft ideas about restrictive trading, haven't thought things through at all. What they can't seem to see is that it will all end in tears for them. The price of materials will end up going through the roof. As others have said, ...DIY'ers are a good source of income for electricians, always will and always have been!!

My thoughts on these wanna-be electrical police is before you start worrying about Joe Public doing electrical DIY, you should be more worried about what is out there claiming to be ''Qualified'' electricians, Sort your own house out first!!!

There, ....that should please at least one poster on this thread!!! lol!!!

 

[chris murphy]

How much longer are Builder and DIY'ers going to carry on 'de-valuing' our trade. It seems the more i read on here and the more i see out on site DIY electrics are getting more and more common. It winds me up that we go to college for 3/4 Years to get a qualification that enables us to work safely yet every Tom Dick and Harry can go into B&Q/Screwfix etc buy some cable and sockets, have a quick look at a diagram B&Q have kindly put up for them and then go home and bodge their electrics. The Gas lads seem to be starting to get it sorted but we haven't. Personally the only way i think this will stop is to give every qualified electrician a card similar to the Gas Safe card and make it law that electrical items can only be sold to people who hold this card. Am i on my own or do others feel the same? Sorry to rant but it makes my blood boil.

"Hello J&M Electrical",


I agree with what You wrote - about the Electrical Trade being protected from the DIYer who has NO knowledge of Electrical Safety / Electrical Installation - and I would like to see the 1 or 2 WEEK Electrical `Courses` banned - that is those Courses where People end up THINKING that they can Now carry out Electrical Installations / Work - Not the `Updating Courses` / `Continued Professional Development` for Qualified Electricians.

But regarding Stopping People being able to buy Electrical Items / Electrical Installation Materials I doubt whether that will ever be introduced - ?


I am a Gas Safe Registered `Gas Installer`/ Engineer - In Theory We are VERY Strictly Regulated in terms of having to Pass Gas ACS Assessments / Re-Assessments every 5 Years and Register [and Pay] with Gas Safe every Year in order to be Legally Allowed to Work with Gas / Gas Appliances.

We must have Current ACS Categories for ALL sectors of Gas Work that We carry out - these have been Split into a LOT of Categories If You are carrying out BOTH Domestic and Non Domestic Gas Work.

When CORGI were the Industry Safety Regulator they insisted on Work Inspections for All Registered Gas Installers / Engineers - these were carried out on a Yearly basis for Most - But IF You were considered an `Expert` by your Inspector you would probably not be Inspected again for 2 or 3 Years.

During these Work Inspections the CORGI Inspector would Ask Questions on All aspects of the Gas Work that You were Registered as Carrying Out - These Questions were very often on `New` Regulations / Technical Requirements / Installation Methods - of course they were `Not trying to catch You Out`.

Gas Safe - carry out Inspections related to the Experience [or lack of it] and related to Customer Complaints / Safety Issues - meaning that they try to concentrate their Inspections on Newly Registered Installers or those who have had Complaints about their Work / Safety Issues.


BUT - There is NO Regulation / Law that Stops the Sale of Gas Appliances or Gas Spares / Gas Pipework Fittings to People who are NOT Gas Safe Registered.


There IS an element within the Gas Industry / Gas Installers that states they would want this Law to be Introduced But I cannot see it being brought in any time soon.


I definitely think that People who are NOT Gas Safe Registered should NOT be able to purchase Gas Appliances or Spare Parts - It is `Worrying` to say the least that Joe Bloggs can buy a Spare Part for their Gas Appliance - perhaps having Identified what He thinks has malfunctioned by going online - and then start taking apart His Gas Appliance to Remove a Part and Refit a New one - with probably NO knowledge of the Gas Appliance or `Gas Safety` in general.


As I think has been mentioned previously on the Forum - it is deemed by the Health & Safety Executive that Gas / Gas Appliances being worked on by `Non Competent` [ Not Proven to be Competent] / Unregistered with Gas Safe Persons is more Dangerous to `Life - Health and Property` than People who are Not Qualified working on Electrics - which is why Gas Installers / Engineers have the Constraints that I mentioned above.

IF most Electricians would want to have a similar Assessment / Reassessment Process and a Yearly Registration / `Licensing` Process - I should mention that I recently Paid £800.00 for My Re-Assessments - Just Domestic Natural Gas Core Safety and Appliances - and at present My Yearly Gas Safe Registration is £186.00.

I know that the £800.00 is not much Money when taken that these Gas ACS Re-Assessments do not Expire for 5 Years - and that perhaps the Next 5 Years of Gas Safe Registration will Cost [Guesstimate] £1050.00 [?] - So remaining a Registered Gas Installer / Engineer for the next 5 Years will probably only Cost Me approx. £1850.00 - Not much more than £1.00 per Day over the 5 Years - BUT I still had to find approx. £1000.00 this February / March.


Regards,


Chris

 

[Knobhead]

I’m just stumped as to how we as tradesmen can protect Joe Public from themselves.

Restrict the sale of goods and our industry will be in the dock. Most people and the law will look at limiting sales as restrictive practice.

The big problem in domestic electrics is once the tails leave the meter the installation is the property of the householder. Can you stop Mr. Public changing the brakes on his car? He may be totally incompetent, but it’s his property to do with as he will, until someone gets hurt.

A campaign of information on the dangers would be a start, who’s going to pay for it? Will Joe read it?

Fred down the pub will win hands down while ever legitimate tradesmen are being stung at every turn by the bodies that are supposed to protect them.

I give up!

 

[sparkiegaz]

personally ide make it that if you wanted to do anythink electrical or gas inside your house you would have to tell council and building officer about it no matter what,then give them the name of person or company doing the task ,they have to provide proof that they can do such task and provide test cert at the end of the job,,,all at home owners cost,,,if you dont want to pay then the work dont get done, all houses should be tested by law every two years and insurance company gets proof of this getting done, if you dont have it tested then u have no insurance cover,,,if i want to be a doctor ide have to get trained , if i want to fly jets for virgin ide need to get trained , if you want to mess with gas or electric u have to be trained to do so or pay someone that is,,,,yep i paint and decorate my own house and dont need or have to get a trained painter in because it aint going to blow up or kill anyone even if me colours bash,,,

 

[Engineer54]

personally ide make it that if you wanted to do anythink electrical or gas inside your house you would have to tell council and building officer about it no matter what,then give them the name of person or company doing the task ,they have to provide proof that they can do such task and provide test cert at the end of the job,,,all at home owners cost,,,if you dont want to pay then the work dont get done, all houses should be tested by law every two years and insurance company gets proof of this getting done, if you dont have it tested then u have no insurance cover,,,if i want to be a doctor ide have to get trained , if i want to fly jets for virgin ide need to get trained , if you want to mess with gas or electric u have to be trained to do so or pay someone that is,,,,yep i paint and decorate my own house and dont need or have to get a trained painter in because it aint going to blow up or kill anyone even if me colours bash,,,

Never Ever going to happen...Thank god!!! You still can't see, that this type of stuff will eventually come round to bite you in the arse!!!

It's never been a problem in the past, so what's the big problem all of a sudden now?? Home owners DO NOT owe you as an electrician a living....

 

[chris murphy]

personally ide make it that if you wanted to do anythink electrical or gas inside your house you would have to tell council and building officer about it no matter what,then give them the name of person or company doing the task ,they have to provide proof that they can do such task and provide test cert at the end of the job,,,all at home owners cost,,,if you dont want to pay then the work dont get done, all houses should be tested by law every two years and insurance company gets proof of this getting done, if you dont have it tested then u have no insurance cover,,,if i want to be a doctor ide have to get trained , if i want to fly jets for virgin ide need to get trained , if you want to mess with gas or electric u have to be trained to do so or pay someone that is,,,,yep i paint and decorate my own house and dont need or have to get a trained painter in because it aint going to blow up or kill anyone even if me colours bash,,,

"Hello sparkiegaz",


This is purely regarding the requirement for Gas Installers to be Re-Assessed every 5 Years to be able to `Re-Prove` their Competence:


I remember a Gas Engineer Friend of mine stating that if the Regulations regarding Gas Registration / Assessments were designed to `Protect Life and Health` [Plus Property] - Why was it that a Doctor could Qualify and then become a General Practitioner [GP] and remain so for perhaps 40 Years - Largely Without having to Take / Retake ANY further Medical Exams - ?

Having asked a Doctor whether this was True - He stated that there is `Continued Professional Development` / Medial Update Papers to read / learn - as in Most Professions - But that there are NO Mandatory Medical Exams if you choose to remain a GP - even [at present] if you were a GP for the last 40 Years.


I obviously DO Know how MUCH more Intelligent a Person has to be to become a Doctor than is required to become a Gas Engineer / Installer - BUT this is about the process of ensuring that Professionals who could cause `Death or Health Problems` being Re-Assessed regularly.

I am definitely NOT trying to compare a Gas Installer / Engineer or an Electrician to a DOCTOR - But I did take My Friends point and I believe that `Medical Matters`/ Progressive Medical Research have REALLY Technical `Updates` / Developments in Medication Research going on throughout the Years !


WHY would it be that THE Professional who would be looking after Your Health / Your LIFE does NOT have to be `Re-Assessed` perhaps every 5 Years - ?


These comments are NOT meant to be taken to Compare Gas Installers / Engineers to Doctors - Just to Compare the requirements / lack of the requirement to be Re-Assessed regularly.


Regards,


Chris

 

[Engineer54]

Another thing to consider with Doctors they have to be registered with a National Registration Body!! One with Teeth, that can strike a doctor off the that register when he fails to be competent!! There is then no possible way for that Doctor to practice Medicine within the UK.

Shame most of you don't like the same idea for Electricians, and are more concerned with DIY'ers and B&Q/shed type outlets selling electrical materials to the public!!!

 

[Adam W]

Nothing like a spot of deceased equine flogging!
...
I have seen some awful work by DIYers, but it's no worse than the awful work I have seen carried out by time served qualified electricians. It's the way the world is.

I wondered who would be the first to say that.
I disagree BTW - that seems to suggest that serving your time as an apprentice or adult trainee is a waste of time, which isn't usually the case. OK some slip through the net or decide to err on the 'cowboy side' but generally speaking someone who has learned the trade properly will be 'better' than someone who hasn't.

For the record I don't agree with having to jump through hoops to buy sockets and switches - changing a standard plastic socket for a chrome plated one or replacing a cracked one can be done by someone who feels competent to do so, it doesn't have to be done by an electrician. If the general public weren't allowed to buy installation materials I can see an increase in bodges like 4 way extension leads run through walls, broken sockets glued together etc which I think is worse than using proper materials.
As Tony suggests there are plenty of perfectly competent electricians such as himself who are more than capable of adding a socket or changing a CU in their own home who may not have the right bits of paper or paid the subscriptions to the right organisations to be able to tick some box to fulfil a 'legal requirement'.

The subject of food hygiene is a good one - yes you should have a food hygiene certificate to cook food commercially, but you don't need one to cook in your own home, ie you can give yourself food poisoning but you can't give it to the general public, which is similar to electrical work - you can electrocute yourself with your DIY shenanigans, but if you go around charging for it then questions may be asked.
Incidentally cooking food in a commercial kitchen is about as far removed from cooking in your home as you can get - in most run of the mill restaurants food is just reheated in the microwave or chucked in the fryer, whereas you would change a socket the same way in your own home as you would in someone else's, or an office.