inspection and testing

[Sparky 63]

evening all,
I am carrying an inspection and test of a board which is located in an area similar to a swimming pool - the board is 40 years old - has no main earth and is reliant on the the conduits connection for earthing- there is no MET within board - all earths are connected to board chassis - there is no rcd protection. The environment is a harsh corrosive environment - some ZS values are high on certain circiuits what is the minimum I can do to get this board to a satisfactory state so that it would pass an EICR.

Cheers

 

[ImpededLoop]

It's impossible for any of us to be able to help you without actually being on site.

With regard to "passing" an EICR, only you as the inspector can make that call.

Sorry not to be of more help, but it's just not possible without actually being there.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Are you stating that the installation has no main earth, or that this particular board doesn't?

 

[ian.settle1]

You should know if your carrying out inspection and testing otherwise you shouldn't be doing it

 

[Leesparkykent]

You can't pass an EICR it's either satisfactory or unsatisfactory. The minimum you can do to get it satisfactory is the minimum amount of work to get it satisfactory lol

 

[uksparks]

Sounds like it needs ripping out to be honest

 

[Anthony S]

What's wrong with Conduit used as an Earth ? what's wrong with cpc's terminated to the casing ?

 

[GMES]

Op You're not going to like most of our replies.
Mine is leave it to someone more experienced, there is no way we can tell you what you need to do, only you as the competent, experienced and qualified inspector can decide that.
Told you, you wouldn't like it.

 

[Sparky 63]

conduits connected to earthing in a corrosive environment is my concern - the board is earthed vi the conduits supplying maintails from isolator below it. I am see the lack on main earth cable as a C1 - and the db should be isolated until the necessary remedial work has been completed

Cheers

 

[Anthony S]

conduits connected to earthing in a corrosive environment is my concern - the board is earthed vi the conduits supplying maintails from isolator below it. I am see the lack on main earth cable as a C1 - and the db should be isolated until the necessary remedial work has been completed

Cheers

Carry out the EICR then come back with your findings.

 

[Leesparkykent]

conduits connected to earthing in a corrosive environment is my concern - the board is earthed vi the conduits supplying maintails from isolator below it. I am see the lack on main earth cable as a C1 - and the db should be isolated until the necessary remedial work has been completed

Cheers

you don't have the authority to cut some ones electric off

 

[Sparky 63]

GMEs I am a competent person dont be rude mate

 

[Pete999]

evening all,
I am carrying an inspection and test of a board which is located in an area similar to a swimming pool - the board is 40 years old - has no main earth and is reliant on the the conduits connection for earthing- there is no MET within board - all earths are connected to board chassis - there is no rcd protection. The environment is a harsh corrosive environment - some ZS values are high on certain circiuits what is the minimum I can do to get this board to a satisfactory state so that it would pass an EICR.

Cheers

Not having a go at you, but are you an electrician, trainee or what?

 

[Sparky 63]

agreed i know i dont have the authority to cut off the supply but make recommendations

Cheers

 

[GMES]

Op You're not going to like most of our replies.
Mine is leave it to someone more experienced, there is no way we can tell you what you need to do, only you as the competent, experienced and qualified inspector can decide that.
Told you, you wouldn't like it.

GMEs I am a competent person dont be rude mate

REread the highlighted text I didn't say you were incompetent

 

[Sparky 63]

I am electrician , Part P Hnc - I am looking for opinions- thats all

 

[Sparky 63]

GME , fair comment , I was looking for opinions apologies for the misunderstanding

 

[Anthony S]

HNC your an Engineer

 

[Sparky 63]

Yes thats right

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I think you need to re-read GMES's post.
Not sure that calling you competent, experienced and qualified is rude.
Perhaps if he had said very, very, very experienced?

A Part P engineer?

 

[Sparky 63]

Im not asking for your opinion on my competence , more of an opinion
Thanks

 

[Leesparkykent]

Give the customer the EICR that you have deemed as unsatisfactory. Then if the customer wants you to,quote for the work to bring the installation up to a satisfactory condition. Only you know what will be required to make it satisfactory from the codes you have given so everyone on here will be guessing.

 

[Sparky 63]

listen guys input would be welcome Thanks

 

[Sparky 63]

Thanks Lee , thats good input

Cheers

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Im not asking for your opinion on my competence , more of an opinion
Thanks

I must have missed something?
What is it you want our opinion in regards to?

 

[Sparky 63]

Hi spin if you read my opening e-mail and get back to us that would be good

Cheers

 

[Pete999]

I am electrician , Part P Hnc - I am looking for opinions- thats all

Do you mean you are an Electrician (part P) or Hnc Part P whatever that is.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I already did, you didn't answer.
I'll reiterate: Are you stating that the installation doesn't have a main earth, or just this particular board?

 

[Sparky 63]

The particular board , I am part p and I have a HNC
Cheers

 

[Pete999]

The particular board , I am part p and I have a HNC
Cheers

Thanks

 

[Silly Sausage]

Im not asking for your opinion on my competence , more of an opinion
Thanks

My opinion is...
You're thinking of condemning the whole DB because a few of it circuits have high Z esses?!?!
I think you need to have a re-think.

 

[Diddy]

Input - As stated you/they/someone MUST bring the installation up to standard to get a "satisfactory" EICR
What can you do ?
IF the conduit is not protected against its environment then that could lead to a possible c2/c3 just on containment (Eg if there is reat big rusty holes in it.) If its galv conduit then it should be fine.
What else could you do - Run in cpc's if there are none and run in an earth from the met at the supply. Run in all your usual main protective bonds and assess for the need for supplementary bonding.
As for RCD protection - does it need it in your opinion ? Would the area count as a special location ?
As an inspector you just have to deliver the report imho. Deliver the unsatisfactory report if the install is not up to scratch and quote for remedial works.
You say Zs is high....is it too high ? only you have seen the readings mate.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

An installation has one MET.
The initials stand for Main Earth Terminal.
An installation may have EMTs (Earth Marhshaling Terminals) as well as a MET, but there is no requirement to such.
All circuits of a location containing a swimming pool, are now (just as with locations containing baths or showers) required to be provided with 30mA RCD protection.
Depending upon where the board is situated, it may be that the circuit supplying the board would also require 30mA RCD protection.
However as the requirements are retrospective, it could be argued that a lack of RCD protection, would only warrent a code C3, if the installation complied at the time of it's design/construction.

 

[Diddy]

An installation has one MET.
The initials stand for Main Earth Terminal.
An installation may have EMTs (Earth Marhshaling Terminals) as well as an MET, but there is no requirement to have any.
All circuits of a location containing a swimming pool, are now (just as with locations containing baths or showers) required to be provided with 30mA RCD protection.
Depending upon where the board is situated, it may be that the circuit supplying the board would also require 30mA RCD protection.
However as the requirements are retrospective, it could be argued that a lack of RCD protection, would only Warrent a code C3, if the installation complied at the time of it's design/construction.

I know that mate I was just using the term loosely between sparks lol. This sounds like a sub board to me (so running in an earth from MET would still be "correct" lol). Maybe im just looking too deep into stuff lol.

 

[davesparks]

If the board is supplied by steel conduit then it does have an earth, its that steel conduit! There is absoloutely nothing wrong with this and is compliant with the current regulations as long as the connection at each end is electrically and mechanically sound. If it is suffering from a bit of corrosion then the most it might need is a bit of a clean up and some paint to cover the exposed metal.
The same goes for outgoing circuits wired in steel conduit.

 

[davesparks]

Sounds like it needs ripping out to be honest

Why on earth would it need that?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I didn't reply to your post.
You posted while I was typing.
My comment regarding the MET was aimed at the OP.
He stated that the board doesn't have a MET.
I also suspected that it was a Sub board, which is why I asked for clarification.
Obviously, a Sub board would not have a MET, as the MEt would be at the origin of the installation.
I would expect that there would be a CPC run with the feed to the board, and would expect the CPCs of the circuits fed from this board to be connected to it.

 

[jdtae]

Considering it is a swiming fool I would consider RCD protection as a minimum.
and Take a Zs reading (highest reading point) without any touch on main conduits connection point then note it. Would try to make the main conduits connection points better as much it can be.
take a second reading of Zs on same point.
if the second reading comes out with lower reading... report it on EICR with the concerns.
if reading remains same then I would go for Ze.
There would be a better way with someone's opinion.

JD

 

[trev]

conduits connected to earthing in a corrosive environment is my concern - the board is earthed vi the conduits supplying maintails from isolator below it. I am see the lack on main earth cable as a C1 - and the db should be isolated until the necessary remedial work has been completed

Cheers

Please tell us what gives us the authority to do this. I'd love it if we had the clout but we don't.

 

[uksparks]

Why on earth would it need that?

I was just suggesting it's 40+ years old and updating it to something modern wouldn't go a miss. I'm sure it works perfectly well, but it would be nice to update it.

 

[ian.settle1]

I was just suggesting it's 40+ years old and updating it to something modern wouldn't go a miss. I'm sure it works perfectly well, but it would be nice to update it.

I'm 57 does that mean I need updating for something modern

 

[Tidy Max]

I'm 57 does that mean I need updating for something modern

Don't give your Mrs any ideas!

 

[Sparky 63]

Thanks for all your inputs gents

Cheers

 

[trev]

Thanks for all your inputs gents

Cheers

Nowts the botha hinny

 

[CockneyReject]

conduits connected to earthing in a corrosive environment is my concern - the board is earthed vi the conduits supplying maintails from isolator below it. I am see the lack on main earth cable as a C1 - and the db should be isolated until the necessary remedial work has been completed

Cheers

Absence of a suitable means of earthing for the installation is a C2 fella, seeing as there's only any real or immediate danger if a fault occurs

wheres the DB situated out of interest and is there any sign of corrosion to the DB and conduits already?

 

[Engineer54]

evening all,
I am carrying an inspection and test of a board which is located in an area similar to a swimming pool - the board is 40 years old - has no main earth and is reliant on the the conduits connection for earthing- there is no MET within board - all earths are connected to board chassis - there is no rcd protection. The environment is a harsh corrosive environment - some ZS values are high on certain circiuits what is the minimum I can do to get this board to a satisfactory state so that it would pass an EICR.

Cheers

I think you've had the answers to the more relevant of your questions. The installation sounds as if it's been installed to a pretty high standard for it's day, and as others have stated the conduit IS the CPC, and as the whole installation is metal conduit containment you won't see any separate CPC's unless the board has been added too, with installations that are not in metal conduit containment.

What do you mean by a ''harsh corrosive environment'' and what damage has it caused to this installation?? What do you mean by high Zs values, (you have been asked that a couple of times already but still no feedback)?? What's the Zdb at this fuse board and at the isolator switch below the fuse board?

The older metal fuse boards/isolators etc, didn't come with a means of connecting CPC's as there were none. At the origin of this installation is about the only place you'd actually see a main earthing conductor, and then the chances are it would be a bare conductor connecting to the installations main switch fuse.

The main problem i can see with this sub main, is if any service pipework or structural steel needs main bonding, only you will know the answer to that question. It could well be that all main bonding has been carried out for this building and connected to whatever is being used as the installations MET at the origin of the installation... It may be prudent to check if the sizing of those main bonding conductors are compliant, remembering that they may well be Imperial conductors

On a final note, i personally know of full galv' metal conduit containment systems that haven't been mucked about with, that have been in place 60+ years. The only work that has been carried out on them, being replacing the old VIR wiring and updated fuse boards some 35/40 years ago and not a single CPC conductor to be seen in any of the conduits. I can guarantee that those installations will still be giving Zdb/ Zs values that would impress even the most sceptical among us!!

 

[Knobhead]

listen guys input would be welcome Thanks

I was just suggesting it's 40+ years old and updating it to something modern wouldn't go a miss. I'm sure it works perfectly well, but it would be nice to update it.

£X000 just because you think it would be “nice” to upgrade it?

Get real!

 

[nickblake]

I just cant understand why people get so worked up when steel conduit is used as an earth and no separate earth if you work out the cross sectional earth of a conduit and compare that to say a 1.5 or 2.5 earth or even greater size, there will be no comparison, as long as the conduit is good and sound condition then there's not a problem

 

[baldsparkies]

I just cant understand why people get so worked up when steel conduit is used as an earth and no separate earth if you work out the cross sectional earth of a conduit and compare that to say a 1.5 or 2.5 earth or even greater size, there will be no comparison, as long as the conduit is good and sound condition then there's not a problem

Because they lack a general understanding, knowledge or experience.
Nothing more. Nothing less.:icon12: