Level of qualification needed to obtain licence?

[overskilled]

Though the way things are going sites are going to become closed shops more and more...but not by the unions...by the employers, and we will all suffer.......wages end up getting stomped down further..
I sadly can see this "electricians licensing scheme" creeping up and up in price to where the smaller players get pushed out, where the bigger players end up paying peanuts per person put through, or set up their own colleges to solely train their own staff (with all the farcicalness that goes on now) or runs a site with 25 mates and one "licenced electrician" (or worse 30 sites and one licenced electrician)
I admire what your trying to do...but I don't think its going to work and vested interests are going to make sure it doesn't work for anyone but them....any legislation is going to be watered down to the point where it is utterly meaningless.....why else do you think big corporations "donate" to political parties........getting as bad as the us system.....

 

[Engineer54]

Though the way things are going sites are going to become closed shops more and more...but not by the unions...by the employers, and we will all suffer.......wages end up getting stomped down further..
I sadly can see this "electricians licensing scheme" creeping up and up in price to where the smaller players get pushed out, where the bigger players end up paying peanuts per person put through, or set up their own colleges to solely train their own staff (with all the farcicalness that goes on now)or runs a site with 25 mates and one "licenced electrician" (or worse 30 sites and one licenced electrician)
I admire what your trying to do...but I don't think its going to work and vested interests are going to make sure it doesn't work for anyone but them....any legislation is going to be watered down to the point where it is utterly meaningless.....why else do you think big corporations "donate" to political parties........getting as bad as the us system.....

How can that happen??

That's what the JIB/SJIB are there to stop!! It's also up to you and every other electrician not to allow that state of affairs to even start, let alone get a foot hold. You've seen what happens when you allow profit based organisations into our industry, so DON'T let it happen again!!

Nothing wrong with companies setting up their own training schools, so long as the national qualification criteria remains the same. I was trained myself by a company that had it's own trades training school facilities. If anything this idea should be encouraged!!

All electricians will need to be liecensed, be they domestic, commercial or industrial, again be they installation electricians or factory line maintenance... That's the whole point of having a ''National Register of Qualified Electricians'', no areas left open for abuse...

 

[UNG]

I did my A,B and C certs, to 14th Edition over 4 years, back in the 70's and, obviously, updates of the various editions.
Think I'm right in saying they were the C&G 2361, 2362 and 2363.

I'm wondering what today's equivalent of the C cert is, if any, and hence which level to select.

It was a very much sought after qualification and the vast majority were content with the B cert for approved electrician status.

Don't think there is a C cert equivalent these days the pass rate on the old C cert dropped so low C & G just did away with the course and exam about 7 or 8 years ago

Many lads never did the C cert as very few if any employers would pay Technician rate

Bit of a tricky one for me. If I tick any of the first three options, I'll be like a turkey voting for Christmas. It looks like I'm seriously under-qualified.

Not sure what to suggest, but you need to make provision for those who've acquired their technical knowledge other than by the conventional route. Reading between the lines, I recon that there are a few of us on here.

I wouldn't mind doing another couple of evening courses and/or an extended on-site assessment, but be careful who you're going to exclude.

Not sure what provision or dispensation you would expect if your qualifications fall short of the required level to obtain a licence my thinking would be some form of restricted licence with a number of years allowed to qualify at the level required to obtain an unrestricted licence after this period if the required standard is not met then no further licences would be issued until the qualification requirement is met

Though the way things are going sites are going to become closed shops more and more...but not by the unions...by the employers, and we will all suffer.......wages end up getting stomped down further..
I sadly can see this "electricians licensing scheme" creeping up and up in price to where the smaller players get pushed out, where the bigger players end up paying peanuts per person put through, or set up their own colleges to solely train their own staff (with all the farcicalness that goes on now) or runs a site with 25 mates and one "licenced electrician" (or worse 30 sites and one licenced electrician)
I admire what your trying to do...but I don't think its going to work and vested interests are going to make sure it doesn't work for anyone but them....any legislation is going to be watered down to the point where it is utterly meaningless.....why else do you think big corporations "donate" to political parties........getting as bad as the us system.....

If "ALL" work has to be carried out by licensed electricians then this to my way of thinking would mean by using the 25 mates and one spark the employer and any of the mates doing electrical work would be possibly breaking the law


With the proliferation of the quick and even quicker courses in the last few years any true and proper licensing scheme will probably leave most of those trained this way out in the cold and playing catch up unless we end up with some half baked, half cocked licensing scheme that issues licences to those already assessed by a current scheme. Back in the 70's when I was at college the training covered domestic, commercial and industrial once you qualified you were a spark you where not pigeon holed into one sector over another and I believe the training should move back this way if you have never learnt anything about three phase how the hell can you recognise and understand some of the faults in a single phase installation that occur because there is a fault external to the premises in the DNO's local network
If you want to add endorsements or addition skills on a licence fine but not domestic, commercial and industrial

 

[steve.b]

Level 3 diploma (incorporating NVQ3 and AM2 [currently the C&G 2357] =Fully Qualified Electrician:hurray: Full Stop (or equivalent?????).

C&G 2357 = Health and Safety legislation, Environmental legislation, Practices and procedures for overseeing and organising the work environment. Principles of planning and selection for the installation of electrotechnical equipment and systems. Practices and procedures for the preparation and installation of wiring systems and electrotechnical equipment. Cable termination. Inspection and testing. Fault finding and Electrical principles.

 

[Hawkmoon]

I have voted 'level 3 diploma' on your poll -

In my day the AM2 was available only to those beginning training at the age of 17 (apprentice route) so practical experience should be considered as one of your 'or equivalent' options.

I believe the 236 1&2 or NVQ L3 should be minimum in the area of core theory.

I see the 2391 (and equivalents) & 17th ed to be supplemental qualifications not core - though these should also be compulsory (including regular updating).

Problem is the government have already deemed as competent those who have achieved much less (Electrical Trainee etc) - so I can see compromises coming.

 

[Knobhead]

My C&G certificates don’t have a number.
They are that old!
They were issued under the Union of Lancashire and Cheshire Institutes as an Electrical Technician.

So am I qualified or not?


That said.
I want our trade shut of the Electrical Trainee’s. I was proud to be a “time served” electrician. It’s worth jack ---- now!

 

[KAS1]

JIB grading, that's it, now non JIB employees can obtain the grade if they meet the requirements and that's good enough IMO, years gone by non JIB employees did not have a register as such, now they can obtain a JIB card if they fulfill the requirements and then practice at the grade level and should not have to pay these scams stupid money.

 

[m top]

I would probably say your 17th regs, NVQ3, 2394/95 or 2391, or a min level of three for testing etc. I think it's probably fair to say you have to draw the line somewhere and saying you must have 2391 or equivalent will turf out a chunk.

I would say anyone who had gone as far as obtaining 2391, 94/95 genuinely has a passion / vested interest in wanting to learn the trade and is seen to have me some form of recognised effort.

I know there's a lot of very qualified by experience people out there who do not have 2391 who would then possibly end up peeved off.

Just my opinion.

There are a lot good sparks out there that wouldn't pass the 2391 2394 2395 simply because the way cg interpret the written exam you almost need a photographic memory,havin said that you may have all the knowledge and experience in the world so is this fair?

 

[Engineer54]

JIB/SJIB grading can be a little too harsh at times, a little leeway is always going to be needed. It used to call it commonsense, but alas that died a death long ago!! You could certainly base the minimum levels on the present JIB's requirements though, i'd be more than happy to accept them.

Certainly won't be any requirement for the part pee scams with a national licensing register, competency will be fulfilled by the license you carry. Why do you think all these scams are running more than a little scared right now, trying to drum up support for their continued existence... lol!!

 

[Hawkmoon]

There are a lot good sparks out there that wouldn't pass the 2391 2394 2395 simply because the way cg interpret the written exam you almost need a photographic memory,havin said that you may have all the knowledge and experience in the world so is this fair?

You don't need all the knowledge and experience in the world to pass the 2391 etc, just to be at a reasonably competent level and apply a bit of 'study time'.
Good electricians who fail this exam would probably admit that they did not prepare (study) well enough.

 

[Engineer54]

There are a lot good sparks out there that wouldn't pass the 2391 2394 2395 simply because the way cg interpret the written exam you almost need a photographic memory,havin said that you may have all the knowledge and experience in the world so is this fair?

Well if they are fully qualified electricians, they have done it once to gain their C&G, so why can't they not do it again?? It's not exactly a long drawn out course is it??.

 

[m top]

Well if they are fully qualified electricians, they have done it once to gain their C&G, so why can't they not do it again?? It's not exactly a long drawn out course is it??.

Fair point so why is there only a 30% pass rate many that take this exam are experienced sparks ??

 

[cmac70]

Need find the time and cash to get to do my 2395 written re-sit other things end up eating the cash. Not sure how I go about doing nvq 3 as I work for what ever agencies I can as I am building my own customer base up. So really speaking I would say you need to have done at 3 years college time to be classed as a spark and go on a register.☺

 

[Hawkmoon]

Fair point so why is there only a 30% pass rate many that take this exam are experienced sparks ??

But are they experienced in inspection/testing?
The exam is closed book so as I said previously, you need to study

 

[m top]

But are they experienced in inspection/testing?
The exam is closed book so as I said previously, you need to study

Couldn't agree more all I am trying to say is I believe many sparks take this exam and come unstuck because of the way cg interpret the questions some people just can't get there heads round it,I am not going to go of thread but someone posted earlier that Electrical Trainee pass this because the knowledge is fresh from there study's,the point I'm trying to make is good sparks fail this simply because of this not that they can't test and inspect

 

[Hawkmoon]

Couldn't agree more all I am trying to say is I believe many sparks take this exam and come unstuck because of the way cg interpret the questions some people just can't get there heads round it,I am not going to go of thread but someone posted earlier that Electrical Trainee pass this because the knowledge is fresh from there study's,the point I'm trying to make is good sparks fail this simply because of this not that they can't test and inspect

I agree there are occasionally questions that may be ambiguous but if your success is dashed by one iffy question on the paper then IMO you either didn't pay attention during the course or didn't prepare (or both).
Where you talk about knowledge being fresh after study (Electrical Trainee), this applies to the 2391 4/5 courses also - you do the course then the exam!

 

[Engineer54]

Fair point so why is there only a 30% pass rate many that take this exam are experienced sparks ??

That was for the C&G 2391, and the pass rate never dropped to just 30%. Isn't that one of the daft reasons they came up with for splitting the 2391?? To make it easier, not so much to remember in one go, or was that more of an excuse to squeeze more money out of the qualification. One more thing to remember, is that when any exam becomes ''easy to pass'', that exam becomes a pointless and meaningless benchmark... A bit like having an open book Lv 3 exam defining electrical competence as we have at the moment!! Well according to the training centres and scam providers anyway!!!

Remember, every qualification exam ever compiled is going to be hard for those that don't know the answers. The very reason you need to train and more importantly STUDY, so that when you do sit the Exam, you do know the answers.

 

[Guest55]

a 1 size fits all minimum licencing criteria will never work in an industry as diverse as electrical.

to work in domestic do you need all sparks to be at jib approved level ? course not , its mostly wiring by numbers anyway.

and would it be suitable for a short course trained installer to be fitting 3 phase db's in a commercial project unsupervised ? course not , you'd want someone with a higher level of experience.

theres alot to be said for allowing each part of the industry to decide its own craft requirements rather than blanket legislation.

we need to look at the big picture rather than trying to protect our own vested interests as meddling with qualification requirements nearly always creates a negative impact on the economy........

and we're all here to get paid right ?
;-)

 

[KAS1]

a 1 size fits all minimum licencing criteria will never work in an industry as diverse as electrical.

to work in domestic do you need all sparks to be at jib approved level ? course not , its mostly wiring by numbers anyway.

would it be suitable for a short course trained installer to be fitting 3 phase db's in a commercial project unsupervised ? course not , you'd want someone with a higher level of experience.

theres alot to be said for allowing each part of the industry to decide its own craft requirements rather than blanket legislation.

we need to look at the big picture rather than trying to protect our own vested interests as meddling with qualification requirements nearly always creates a negative impact on the economy........

and we're here to get paid right ?
;-)

That's very well put, however IMO it all goes back to proper training as in my JIB apprenticeship most aspects of electrical installation where covered from industrial/commercial to a bit of domestic etc and then after coming out of "your time" that's when the real learning began "working on your own" so when JIB graded operatives don't seem to be excepted as capable of doing domestic it amazes me as you say "its mostly wiring by numbers anyway" so perhaps it's time the JIB card was minimum standard for these so called "Domestic installers"

 

[D Skelton]

to work in domestic do you need all sparks to be at jib approved level ? course not , its mostly wiring by numbers anyway.

I don't think it should be. It never used to be wiring by numbers until we allowed it to become so with the birth of fast track training centers and domestic installation guides.

The way I see it, if you're going to install a circuit you need to know why you are doing it, why you are installing a specific size and type of cable, why your Zs needs to be below a certain level, what voltage drop is, what size cpc you need, the effects of electromagnetism, types of protective measure etc.... I could go on and on.

The fact is, commercial and industrial wiring could just as easily become wiring by numbers if we let it, but does that make for a better standard of installer? No. Because the lack of underpinning knowledge, that core understanding of electrical science and principles is no longer there.

It could even be argued that your average one man band domestic installer needs to be more knowledgable than your average jobbing commercial spark who does nothing but sling in SWA on ladder and pull singles through trunking day in day out. I won't make that argument, but it's there!