Level of qualification needed to obtain licence?

[Guest569]

to be fair it's usually the housebashers that are "super sparks" and think they can do everything, most industrial sparks that have only ever really done industrial work wouldn't be caught dead house bashing and I don't blame them

I've started 13 years ago and in that time I've done panel building, house bashing, commercial and industrial and although I am nowhere near a master at any I'm comfortable and confident within all of these arenas and can work to a high standard with relative ease and there's not a lot of difference between any of them unless your a short course wire by numbers parrot or a relatively fresh out of your time spark who's also been parroted and brought up on modular jobs and multi choice exams. Taking it back to proper technical Certs and apprentices been taught a full scope is the way forward not breaking it down into different sectors

Everyone knocks house bashing , Understandably, its dirty work and pretty straightforward.

I have my p60s for the last 10 years of doing it and they all range from 48-56k.

I don't know about you lot but Im here to make money not to brag about my accreditations and qualifications.

edit - and I should add most of my days where no more than 6 hour shifts ! good for the handicap and all that !

 

[overskilled]

I have worked with some guys who left school at 15 and worked right up until 70. The things I learned from them was priceless. Back in the 40s-80s Nearly all sparks did every aspect of electrical work, I have seen things which are not even known by today's young sparks and they were briliant in knowlege and quality of work, you can never if you have any resepct for experience feel insulted by them and their knowlege, I have much respect for ipf overskilled and you should as well. Regarding your replies, I understand what you are suggesting regarding today's training and thinking regarding different aspects of the trade. Some of the guys on here have done short courses and continue to learn daily and are very good sparks in the field they work in. However do not think an alrounder who was trained pre1990 needs to be tested every 5 years, I cannot agree with that, I cannot see the point in it to be honest, they were trained properly back then and it is only the trained sparks today who need to be inspected regularly due to the fact the training is a lot less and not in all aspects like it used to be. I do see your point though.

I understand what your saying MDJ. However the street goes both way...respect is earned...
Also I respect those who give it back...
I also think no-one is above having their work checked...If someone is properly trained then their work should be the benchmark, if issues are found then they should have no problem in taking the comments onboard and sorting themselves out. If they carry on regardless, then someone should step in and give them a kick up the backside, if they fail to heed the kick up the backside...its time to go out to pasture...
When you start excluding a group of people because of their past, it then corrupts the system and gives those exempt carte blanche to do as they please.
I've seen places done by once brilliant sparks, who have let their standards slip badly, and the work has been downright dangerous, exposed cores left showing all over the place, RCDs not fitted and worse....
No one should be above retesting.....

 

[MDJ]

I understand what your saying MDJ. However the street goes both way...respect is earned...
Also I respect those who give it back...
I also think no-one is above having their work checked...If someone is properly trained then their work should be the benchmark, if issues are found then they should have no problem in taking the comments onboard and sorting themselves out. If they carry on regardless, then someone should step in and give them a kick up the backside, if they fail to heed the kick up the backside...its time to go out to pasture...
When you start excluding a group of people because of their past, it then corrupts the system and gives those exempt carte blanche to do as they please.
I've seen places done by once brilliant sparks, who have let their standards slip badly, and the work has been downright dangerous, exposed cores left showing all over the place, RCDs not fitted and worse....
No one should be above retesting.....

Fair enough I respect your views

 

[Guest569]

We are elite and the minimum wage is 6 quid not 13, otherwise I agree

Changed wording of that ;P

 

[ipf]

How many qualifications will people be willing to gain for £13 per hour, cause last time I checked thats not lot of money ?

Very good point and once again sums up todays situation pretty well.

Certain people may think I'm going on a bit, regarding the past but that isn't my point. I'm still well involved with contracting and not averse to doing some house bashing, although it's mostly industrial and commercial these days.
The whole point of aquiring qualifications, these days, has changed completely. The incentive has declined to such a degree, that it's a case of trying to earn a living more than trying to forward oneself to the fore of the trade (not forgetting decent financial remuneration) . The opportunities don't exist these days, it's plain to see.

 

[overskilled]

Fair enough I respect your views

and I fully respect yours mate. At least your willing to be civil and agree to disagree...that I respect...

 

[MDJ]

Everyone knocks house bashing , Understandably, its dirty work and pretty straightforward.

I have my p60s for the last 10 years of doing it and they all range from 48-56k.

I don't know about you lot but Im here to make money not to brag about my accreditations and qualifications.

Good point M8, Very good point, But I do dislike housebashing lol

 

[ipf]

What matters is someone's current ability not their "glory days" that are long past......

Ignorance is bliss. Coming out with such comments...........you're not worth it.

 

[overskilled]

Everyone knocks house bashing , Understandably, its dirty work and pretty straightforward.

I have my p60s for the last 10 years of doing it and they all range from 48-56k.

I don't know about you lot but Im here to make money not to brag about my accreditations and qualifications.

I'm in this business to - do something I enjoy as a career rather than endure, work hours that *generally* suit me (always exceptions not going to leave someone to freeze to death for example) Oh and to make money...
oh and to keep learning, I've never been afraid to take criticism on the chin...as long as its fair and ideally constructive....
JRC - People might knock your methods, but I can see the point of them, get guys together who can work together, job gets done faster, customer happier, money comes in quicker. Only hope you don't burn yourself out...

 

[overskilled]

Ignorance is bliss. Coming out with such comments...........you're not worth it.

As I said to MDJ...give me respect I'll give it back,
Give me lip on the other hand though and I'll bite back...
Oh and for the record...I'm far from ignorant...I might have different views but that doesn't make me ignorant...

 

[Guest569]

Very good point and once again sums up todays situation pretty well.

Certain people may think I'm going on a bit, regarding the past but that isn't my point. I'm still well involved with contracting and not averse to doing some house bashing, although it's mostly industrial and commercial these days.
The whole point of aquiring qualifications, these days, has changed completely. The incentive has declined to such a degree, that it's a case of trying to earn a living more than trying to forward oneself to the fore of the trade (not forgetting decent financial remuneration) . The opportunities don't exist these days, it's plain to see.

Exactly....I would love to claim Im highly intelligent in all aspects of electrical engineering and boast lists of qualifications, but I can't.

Im a house basher through and through. Fortunately Im pretty competent in other areas but I hold all the qualifications I need to carryout my job and I make a lot of money doing it , why would I want to further my education now ? So I can come on this forum and outwit fellow posters with my intelligence ? No Thanks.

 

[D Skelton]

Blimey this thread has become a minefield! lol

Just for clarity, I did say in my OP:

"Lets just say the new system is hunky dory for arguments sake."

In my opinion that would include CPD and thorough and unbiased assessments, although not anually!

5 yearly seems right, and randomly selective, as some have pointed out, there will always be qualified sparks who aren't up to the job.

The main point being that we are assuming the system in place is good.

The original question was regarding minimum qualifications for licencing. That is all. What should the baseline qualification be, if any?

 

[ipf]

Blimey this thread has become a minefield! lol

Just for clarity, I did say in my OP:

"Lets just say the new system is hunky dory for arguments sake."

In my opinion that would include CPD and thorough and unbiased assessments, although not anually!

5 yearly seems right, and randomly selective, as some have pointed out, there will always be qualified sparks who aren't up to the job.

The main point being that we are assuming the system in place is good.

The original question was regarding minimum qualifications for licencing. That is all. What should the baseline qualification be, if any?

C Cerificate...........................only joking:8:

 

[Guest569]

I'm in this business to - do something I enjoy as a career rather than endure, work hours that *generally* suit me (always exceptions not going to leave someone to freeze to death for example) Oh and to make money...
oh and to keep learning, I've never been afraid to take criticism on the chin...as long as its fair and ideally constructive....
JRC - People might knock your methods, but I can see the point of them, get guys together who can work together, job gets done faster, customer happier, money comes in quicker. Only hope you don't burn yourself out...

In all honestly in my last few years rewiring for a company I absolutely hated it. I was used to the money (when employed) so that initiative was gone. Even now working for myself I HATE rewiring houses, but I know If I get my head down I can make loads of money in a short space of time with relatively little qualifications. This in turn pays for a very nice lifestyle. The incentive of money and the fact I quite enjoy being the boss now is the only thing getting me motivated. Rewiring an old shabby house in the middle of winter up here in jock land is no fun , but if the moneys right, the moneys right.

 

[Guest569]

So to clarify before hijacking another thread.. I think a 3 year apprenticeship is more than enough for £13 per hour.

 

[uksparks]

I have my p60s for the last 10 years of doing it and they all range from 48-56k.

Living the £50k dream then...

I don't know what others views are on here but, I doubt any of them know many if any (Domestic installers, no cant call you that as you are not with a scam, erm, qualified electrician, no damn it, can't call you that as you don't have an NVQ or AM2 etc, erm, how about unregistered, unlicensed, unqualified and non annually inspected person who performs work on electrical installations) people in the bracket of 20 - 30 or any age at that who earn that sort of money. I wish I earned £50k average when I was 19 years old.

P.s: sorry DS for this post, i know it's off topic.

 

[D Skelton]

C Cerificate...........................only joking:8:

Alright you old fart!

Guess that's me out of the new licensing scheme! haha

 

[overskilled]

Blimey this thread has become a minefield! lol

Just for clarity, I did say in my OP:

"Lets just say the new system is hunky dory for arguments sake."

In my opinion that would include CPD and thorough and unbiased assessments, although not anually!

5 yearly seems right, and randomly selective, as some have pointed out, there will always be qualified sparks who aren't up to the job.

The main point being that we are assuming the system in place is good.

The original question was regarding minimum qualifications for licencing. That is all. What should the baseline qualification be, if any?

Ok for new Entrants - NVQ3/AM2

Existing sparks - As above or a portfolio of work showing the required competencies OR an indepth practical assessment over say 5 days.

I'd agree with 5 yearly, though I'd also go along with not knowing when during the 5 years the assessment would crop up.

I'd also quite happily see an adjudication service or similar setup - customer isn't happy, calls the adjudicators - adjudicators agree - spark sorts it out or if horrifically bad faces sanctions, adjudicators disagree - customer pays the spark and if the complaint obviously malicious...pays a penalty charge (to dissuade timewasters).


"Lets just say the new system is hunky dory for arguments sake." << In a country where the govt can't even bill for income tax properly / provide a regs book written in plain and unambiguous English....thats a pretty big assumption....lol

 

[jaypp]

Good point M8, Very good point, But I do dislike housebashing lol

me too, but it's where i'm most comfortable, knowledge wise, and it pays the bills, just! i'm not on rewires day in day out and take my hat off to sparks like JRC who are. (i've met a council rewire guy and they did 1 a day, 3 blokes)

 

[uksparks]

me too, but it's where i'm most comfortable, knowledge wise, and it pays the bills, just! i'm not on rewires day in day out and take my hat off to sparks like JRC who are. (i've met a council rewire guy and they did 1 a day, 3 blokes)

With sufficient man power, anything is possible.

 

[Guest569]

I don't know what others views are on here but, I doubt any of them know many if any (Domestic installers, no cant call you that as you are not with a scam, erm, qualified electrician, no damn it, can't call you that as you don't have an NVQ or AM2 etc, erm, how about unregistered, unlicensed, unqualified and non annually inspected person who performs work on electrical installations) people in the bracket of 20 - 30 or any age at that who earn that sort of money. I wish I earned £50k average when I was 19 years old.

Lol , are you jealous is that it ? ********
In case I haven't explained already ? Things are different up north ? Im fully qualified and incase you have forgotten our last argument already Ive been in this trade for over 13 years and you for 3 ?

and yes earning over 50k at 19 was very nice ! Ive had some real nice things in life Ive owned cars that most would only dream of , Ive been all over the world and I own a few properties. Im sorry that this riles you but it your problem mate..you keep bringing this up on unrelated threads, give it rest and understand this please...I do not give a **** that you are a "member of scheme" or have "more qualifications" than me. Im here to make money....simple.

 

[uksparks]

Maybe there should just be one assessment / examination which if you pass you are worthy, if not you hand your tools in... If its difficult enough and all done from your head with no leaks of information of weeks training, this should sort it out.

 

[overskilled]

To put the cat amongst the pigeons...I wonder what the pass rate for my proposed "practical assessment" would be in terms of time served vs non time served....
results could be interesting...especially if the non time served had a better pass rate....lol
Though to avoid claims of "dumbing down" the assessor would have to be prevented from knowing the background of the candidate, and to avoid bias either way....

 

[overskilled]

Maybe there should just be one assessment / examination which if you pass you are worthy, if not you hand your tools in... If its difficult enough and all done from your head with no leaks of information of weeks training, this should sort it out.

To a large degree I agree, and the 5 yearly resit could be identical (if you've passed it once, then it should be easy enough to keep passing it, as long as you keep yourself up to date)...would also put to bed this Electrical Trainee debate (nah no chance) if everyone was subject to the same written and practical tests to work as a spark...

 

[Dcf]

I'm old enough to remember when we had top billing amongst the trades.
this was mostly due to the wide range of skills needed to carry out your day to day work.
i class my self as an all rounder as I'm comfortable in most electrical environments.
I credit this with good training and old school mentors and bosses who demanded top class work
over a wide scope of electrical jobs.
dropping sparks into wee pigeon holes is not the answer.
thats just a ploy to drive wage rates down IMO.
I don't forget how to make a pyro end off or a double set on a bit pipe just because I don't do it every day, so no my skills don't get rusty.
The main threat to skills at the bigger end of contracting is off site modular assemblies.
there is no skill involved in putting up pre wired trunking and plugging prepared lights and sockets into it.
in real terms the minimum wage is not that far off a skilled wage these days.
all the clever young lads who would be deal tradesman material go and do something else as the cant see the point.
leaving the less capable to take the trainee jobs....a downward spiral indeed
nvq and am2 as a minimum but even the am2 is by numbers now

 

[Guest569]

Living the £50k dream then...

I don't know what others views are on here but, I doubt any of them know many if any (Domestic installers, no cant call you that as you are not with a scam, erm, qualified electrician, no damn it, can't call you that as you don't have an NVQ or AM2 etc, erm, how about unregistered, unlicensed, unqualified and non annually inspected person who performs work on electrical installations) people in the bracket of 20 - 30 or any age at that who earn that sort of money. I wish I earned £50k average when I was 19 years old.

P.s: sorry DS for this post, i know it's off topic.

Again reading your post I suggest you remove it as you have been warned before...your comments are defamatory. If it makes you sleep a bit better why don't you trawl through my Facebook page, I'm sure you will find a copy of my grade card on there !

Are you ever going to stop ?

 

[uksparks]

The issue we have is people know you are either gas safe or not, which to the public means licenced or working illegally.

With electrics, theres nothing stopping you doing anything or calling yourself something. There should just be one body / Licencing authority and people will know you either ate licenced or not, but it's just not going to be an easy journey sorting it out, short of being brutal and saying as of date X you have either got to bi annually pass this exam or stop trading.

 

[Guest569]

gas far more dangerous than electricity.

 

[uksparks]

Gas is dangerous yes.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

its all OK as long as its harnessed correctly...

its when it isn`t that it starts getting dodgy...

yep gas is dangerous...but so is several thousand amperes fault....

 

[guest119]

15 pages sitting on the fence D, your arse must be a new shape :38:
Now you know how Doctor Frankenstein felt after he created his monster.

Boydy

 

[Guest569]

UkSparks - You know whats funny ? Im a drummer too, I had a 7 piece yamaha maple custom when I was 19 kitted out with Zildjian Ks and As. I sold it and only recently got back into it. My latest purchase is a nice little Gretch Catalina Club Jazz kit. Im probably a better drummer than you too

If your going to make comments about me then choose to ignore my responses please don't post in the first place.

 

[uksparks]

A Bic brio can kill you when stabbed into the side of your neck. Everything is dangerous if not used correctly.

 

[Guest569]

its all OK as long as its harnessed correctly...

its when it isn`t that it starts getting dodgy...

yep gas is dangerous...but so is several thousand amperes fault....

Gas has far more potential to kill multiple people.

 

[jaypp]

Gas is dangerous yes.

not true. i've seen stickers on vans saying 'gas safe'! :smile5:

 

[Engineer54]

I get the argument of everyone being able to do everything...but you don't expect all people getting a driving licence to pass the HGV/PSV test, which is what some seem to be advocating.....

No, But you would expect him to hold a valid driving license, and have held that license for the prescribed number of years before being able to take a HGV/PSV test....

Which is all that is being said here. Base minimum qualifications/skills for registration as an electrician, ...any sector electrician. Like the example made with doctors, an electrician can better himself by specialising and taking further appropriate qualifications to that end.

No-one here, is calling for the base electrical qualification entry level for an electrician to include all the add on qualifications. All that's actually being asked for, is basically the same that has always been the recognised minimum, and that's holding a core qualification. The only reason you need to add AM2 and NVQ is because today those base/core qualifications don't come hand in hand with on the job skill training like they used to in my day....

 

[uksparks]

You know whats funny ? Im a drummer too, I had a 7 piece yamaha maple custom when I was 19 kitted out with Zildjian Ks and As. I sold it and only recently got back into it. My latest purchase is a nice little Gretch Catalina Club Jazz kit. Im probably a better drummer than you too

If your going to make comments about me then choose to ignore my responses please don't post in the first place.

See the drum to the left, this is my snare, it's a DW super solid edge, took three months to get as had to custom make it as its steam bent solid maple with a walnut ring. When it arrived I then ordered a whole kit from them, still waiting for it, likely to be another couple of months, cost me £14k.

I have played the drums since I was 11, so 21 years now. I play in a 45 strong orchestra as the drummer and am incharge of all percussion.

I did all my grades years ago, did my grade 8 kit and grade 5 theory in 1997, not that grades mean anything.

 

[Guest569]

See the drum to the left, this is my snare, it's a DW super solid edge, took three months to get as had to custom make it as its steam bent solid maple with a walnut ring. When it arrived I then ordered a whole kit from them, still waiting for it, likely to be another couple of months, cost me £14k.

I have played the drums since I was 11, so 21 years now. I play in a 45 strong orchestra as the drummer and am incharge of all percussion.

I did all my grades years ago, did my grade 8 kit and grade 5 theory in 1997, not that grades mean anything.

Nice...Ive gigged all over, supporting acts such as Fun Loving Criminals and playing in various jazz bands etc..Was very young, around 16-18...then had to make a decision whether to commit to music or stick with my apprenticeship and here I am ....sometimes wonder if I made the correct decision.

 

[Rockingit]

I'm just going to quietly point out that if you take a wander over to the Inpection and testing section you'll find a thread written by a complete turnip who claims in other posts elsewhere to be undertaking HNC after having done 2391 and a bunch of other stuff.... and the thread is asking why his megger isn't testing an MCB even when it's on 5x setting.

Qualifications (if real) do not equal competence, they just equal being able to learn the right answer to a question. And therein, lies the problem.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Gas has far more potential to kill multiple people.

well...you know what uncle joe used to say...

 

[Engineer54]

for new Entrants - NVQ3/AM2

Am i reading this right, some here are suggesting that an NVQ and a AM2 should be the minimum requirement for being registered as an Electrician?? Without a core qualification, ...absolutely NOT!!

This just shows me how low the estimation of an electricians worth to some of you!!! That or you're electrical trainee's yourself without a meaningful qualification to your name and looking for yet another easy route to make a living in our industry...

 

[overskilled]

No, But you would expect him to hold a valid driving license, and have held that license for the prescribed number of years before being able to take a HGV/PSV test....

Which is all that is being said here. Base minimum qualifications/skills for registration as an electrician, ...any sector electrician. Like the example made with doctors, an electrician can better himself by specialising and taking further appropriate qualifications to that end.

No-one here, is calling for the base electrical qualification entry level for an electrician to include all the add on qualifications. All that's actually being asked for, is basically the same that has always been the recognised minimum, and that's holding a core qualification. The only reason you need to add AM2 and NVQ is because today those base/core qualifications don't come hand in hand with on the job skill training like they used to in my day....

Devils advocate: What about the Army though? They teach sprogs how to drive tanks and HGV tank transporters...most of them at the same time learning to drive a car or before they know how to drive a car...;-)

Create a minimum qualification and it has to be accessible i.e. not require sponsorship from an employer to gain it (you then get guys who are decent sparks but don't have the paperwork unable to formalise themselves, despite being more than willing to do so) - Thats why I proposed a serious indepth practical assessment with a theory test also. For the purposes of the practical test, I'm not sure if others agree but I think it would make sense to have different practicals for different sectors to test the different skills - making off large CSA SWA is a skill unto itself in the industrial sphere, as is tracing / terminating cables in a confined space in the domestic sphere....as 2 poor examples..

 

[GLENNSPARK]

I'm just going to quietly point out that if you take a wander over to the Inpection and testing section you'll find a thread written by a complete turnip who claims in other posts elsewhere to be undertaking HNC after having done 2391 and a bunch of other stuff.... and the thread is asking why his megger isn't testing an MCB even when it's on 5x setting.

Qualifications (if real) do not equal competence, they just equal being able to learn the right answer to a question. And therein, lies the problem.

yeah...lol...
seen it...left a note as well....lol..

 

[overskilled]

Am i reading this right, some here are suggesting that an NVQ and a AM2 should be the minimum requirement for being registered as an Electrician?? Without a core qualification, ...absolutely NOT!!

This just shows me how low the estimation of an electricians worth to some of you!!! That or you're electrical trainee's yourself without a meaningful qualification to your name and looking for yet another easy route to make a living in our industry...

Ok so what core qualification(s) would you require as a REALISTIC minimum?

 

[guest119]

The 5wws on here ENG are the ones that protest the loudest, easy to spot.

Boydy

 

[D Skelton]

Lol , are you jealous is that it ?

Whoa let me stop you there. *****

 

[Engineer54]

Ok so what core qualification(s) would you require as a REALISTIC minimum?

Eh!! There is only currently one, well for the installation electrician anyway!!

Core or fundamental electrical qualifications associated with electricians have been 2360. 2330, and currently 2365. All other qualifications are known as supplementary or additional qualifications!! Are you telling us you didn't know this??

 

[PEG]

If everyone can pick their own skills test criteria,then i choose hitting a golf-ball with a baseball bat further than a golfer with a driver... i will expect the newly introduced industry medal in the post thanks...:yesnod:

 

[overskilled]

Eh!! There is only currently one, well for the installation electrician anyway!!

Core or fundamental electrical qualifications associated with electricians have been 2360. 2330, and currently 2365. All other qualifications are known as supplementary or additional qualifications!! Are you telling us you didn't know this??

I was asking your opinion...sheesh...

 

[Engineer54]

Create a minimum qualification and it has to be accessible i.e. not require sponsorship from an employer to gain it (you then get guys who are decent sparks but don't have the paperwork unable to formalise themselves, despite being more than willing to do so) - Thats why I proposed a serious indepth practical assessment with a theory test also. For the purposes of the practical test, I'm not sure if others agree but I think it would make sense to have different practicals for different sectors to test the different skills - making off large CSA SWA is a skill unto itself in the industrial sphere, as is tracing / terminating cables in a confined space in the domestic sphere....as 2 poor examples..

I really don't know what you're on about here we don't need to create anything, we have a perfectly acceptable minimum qualification in place, that doesn't need adjusting or watering down to suit/appease the underqualified electrical trainee's etc.


No we don't need different anythings for different industry sectors, you seem to be hell bent on deskilling, this industry. Well we don't want any of it thank you very much!!