UK Opinion on these pics please

[Apple1973]

Hi,
I am the wife of an electrician feeling absolutely gutted. We have had a complaint from a customer who is seeking a £500 refund for a consumer unit change that my husband undertook for her. I joined here in the hope other electrician's could shed some light on what's happened as I have no clue what consumer unit wiring should look like. I can't confront my husband over this at the moment as his mum is dying and I don't want to add to his stress so I am trying to figure it out myself. My husband has been an electrician 30 years. He is a part P domestic installer, Niceic registered and 18th edition updated last year. We have hundreds of happy customers since he went self employed 2 years ago. I do all his books and customer communication etc and he has never had a complaint up until now.
So basically he started on a job where there were other tradesmen present , including another electrician who was retired .My husband did lots of various electrical jobs for this lady who paid us promptly after each installation and was very happy with his work ,even leaving a good review on Google ads for him ..but then something happened, roughly 4 days after he replaced her consumer unit she called us to say it keeps tripping. He went back over there to try to figure out what was happening and spent half the day there. He came back very frustrated saying he couldn't figure it out. There were 5 other tradesmen there,( the place is being renovated) including this other electrician who apparently couldn't understand why it was tripping either. My husband said he ended up ripping all the wires out in order to get to the bottom of it. ..It ended with my husband telling the customer he was completely stumped and that she should get a second opinion.... I then get sent these pictures a week later from the customer of what she says is my husband's work. I am baffled! To me it looks a mess but I realise she probably took this photo AFTER he dissected it for the tripping fault??
Please can anyone of you guys offer me some opinions here as I'm really distressed by this.

 

[telectrix]

i always take photos of how i left an install, esp. consumer units. that job as per your photo is a mess. without a photo of how your husband left it, we can't tell who's to blame.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Notwithstanding the messy wires, what is tripping, an individual MCB or one of the RCB's, why is one of the MCB's taped over and another off, or are these things tripping?

The far left neutral bar has black wires into it, this would tend to indicate an old circuit, I would start there.

 

[stevethesparks]

It is untidy. Leaving the customer to get a second opinion was probably his biggest mistake. I'd say he'd best ask permission to return and sort the problem out himself. I realise his delicate position at the moment, so would a colleague be able to do this on his behalf?
There are a couple of other small issues, but not worth mentioning as you are not electrically trained.

 

[westward10]

Who disconnected it all then reconnected it, your husband or the other electrician.

 

[littlespark]

Being messy doesn’t explain the tripping.

It’s a case of going through each circuit, disconnecting the live and neutral from the board and testing.

your husband maybe is just overthinking things when he has other things to deal with.
a couple days away, and return to the job with fresh eyes, it might just pop up at him.

 

[snowhead]

The Consumer unit looking messy isn't justification for seeking a £500 refund.
Having other trades onsite isn't helpfull when fault finding if they're possibly plugging in faulty extension leads or equipment.

Who removed the cover, was the power isolated eslewhere first?

 

[telectrix]

either way it needs stripping down. all circuits dead testing, then rewiring.

 

[Apple1973]

i always take photos of how i left an install, esp. consumer units. that job as per your photo is a mess. without a photo of how your husband left it, we can't tell who's to blame.

Thank you for replying. Yes that is definitely a very good idea. It's the messy wiring I think she is judging the most. Can you tell me please does this wiring look standard for a consumer unit replacement where the wires are existing? I have seen pics online of new installation's where the wires are all neat and straight but is this unfair to compare against? Or am I clutching at straws??

 

[westward10]

This is one I fitted onto existing wiring. To be honest your husbands isn't great and we wouldn't tolerate work to that standard.

 

[brianmoooore]

This is one I fitted onto existing wiring. To be honest your husbands isn't great and we wouldn't tolerate work to that standard.

,Yes, it isn't great, but to be fair to the OP, his CU appears to have a LOT more wires than yours, and on a CU change, the existing wiring doesn't always come from the ideal direction, or have sufficient length to make the job as neat as you'd like.
The OP's pic. looks like it may have been neater, but the cpcs, which most would connect in place first, look like they may have been disconnected from the bar for testing purposes, and unthreaded through the lives and neutrals.

 

[Deleted account]

It would make it 10 times easier to fault find if the boards cabling was sorted and easy access was created.
agree with @westward10 i wouldn’t accept the board finish as it is shown in photo.

if the tripping has started 4 days after the installation something must have happened to make this occur. But your husband needs to return to job to prove this.

if it was me I would return and find fault and rectify it. If the fault was not caused by my work I would charge for the return visit, however in this situation I don’t think I would charging extra due to quality of work.

sorry if I’m a bit brutally honest, but best you get the truth.

 

[pc1966]

I started to feel very uneasy when reading there is other work taking place. It is possible your husband is stressed and has assumed that his testing on the CU installation is still valid, but in fact stuff has been changed after that either deliberately as accessories are replaced, or accidentally if a cable is damaged by other work.

The board looks untidy, as others have already said that might have been made far worse by some fault-finding already. I expect the customer's real issue is not believing it can be fixed properly. That is something your husband will have to address or give up and refund.

Really he needs to go back with plenty of time and systematically check all circuits, assuming nothing, and checking for the usual suspects for mysterious trips:

• N-E faults (should be apparent on insulation testing)
• A "borrowed" neutral on up/down light circuits
• Faulty RCD (trip time & ramp testing should eliminate that)
• Faulty appliances being used (washing machines with water leaks, etc, but checking leakage in-use after all of the above should show this)

It needs a methodical approach, and not to have others monkeying with the electrics in the background as they do their work though. Also an opportunity to leave the board looking much neater!

 

[Apple1973]

Who disconnected it all then reconnected it, your husband or the other electrician.

He did I think

 

[westward10]

He did I think

Your husband?

 

[Baddegg]

What circuit is tripping?.....

 

[Dustydazzler]

Rip it out, start again with an Rcbo board

 

[timhoward]

Does your husband have any notes of test results after he finished the board change, and did he get as far as writing out a certificate? Or have the family circumstances meant it hasn't been tested?
The reason I ask is that if one of the other trades has damaged something somewhere since (which is perfectly possible) then a fresh round of dead-tests will a) quickly show where the issue is and b) prove it happened after he left.
Either way the quickest way from here is to test and build up from scratch again as others have said.

 

[LewisM]

If it started tripping 4 days later and there are other trades on site then they have possibly damaged something? Its an occurrence which is all too common although the other trades will of course deny doing anything.

 

[timhoward]

This looks interesting:

 

[timhoward]

With picture enhanced a bit:

 

[cloverman]

To be honest it does look a mess and like others have already stated it needs to be tidied up.
To be fair with all the other trades around, your husband was probably under stress or perhaps he has been stressed for quite a while and you may not have noticed, sometimes the ones closest don't see the signs of stress. He may have taken his eye of the ball so to speak.
Obviously the fault needs to rectified and perhaps it was some occurance after your husand's work that caused it, I doubt anyone will owned up to that so it's a case of returning and investigating the installation or passing it on to a trusted friend who could maybe assist in putting it right.
Personally speaking I would return and carry out inspection/testing of the installation and try to win this customer back on side, one unhappy customer can make your business go downhill fast if they start to spread tales of your workmanship.

Under the circumstances though, it may be better if your husband is under a great strain at present and to save yourself getting really stressed about the situation to refund or someone you know and trust to act on your behalf to put matters right.

 

[stevethesparks]

This looks interesting:
View attachment 65218

What's the interesting bit?

 

[timhoward]

What's the interesting bit?

To me it looks like neutral conductor connected to cpc terminals. Could be wrong, 2nd photo slightly clearer.

 

[Baddegg]

To me it looks like neutral conductor connected to cpc terminals. Could be wrong, 2nd photo slightly clearer.

Good eyes mate ?

 

[littlespark]

Could be the black of a 3 core swa being used as an earth, but I don’t see the corresponding grey on the N bar

 

[stevethesparks]

I was wondering what the item looking like an earth clamp is on top of the CU

 

[timhoward]

Could be the black of a 3 core swa being used as an earth, but I don’t see the corresponding grey on the N bar

Yeah - I also wondered if it is simply a cable extension without tape - anything is possible! But it caught my eye, and whoever wired it originally clearly did have earth tape.

 

[Vortigern]

To be fair to all concerned I think a refund is in order. This is clearly a difficult time for you both and sometimes it's hard to see the woods for the trees. I would say that if the price was for the consumer unit supply and fit then the customer should pay for the materials and not the labour. So in the first instance in your shoes I would suggest this to the customer. As to the fault, no doubt someone will come along and find it and that will cost xyz, I would offer to cover the cost of this for the customer. This may amount to more than £500 refund. Everything is negotiable and of course you would wish to at least attain an equitable solution for all parties. So either refund the £500 or take the alternative route as above. Of course it may be as suggested above, one of the trades has unwittingly drilled a cable or something and if this is shown to be the case then reserve the right to insist the guilty party (so to speak) pays for the rectification of the fault. Believe me, I think most sparks here have had a bad day with things like this and these things do happen try not to take it too hard.

 

[Mike Johnson]

To be fair to the original electrician, do you actually believe that he would have left the CU in that condition, I think someone has been playing around with it since he did the original installation and that is what I would be saying to the client, together with "there were no faults on any circuit when I left site on (insert date important as it establish's a time line of first visit) therefore I would suggest that some damage has been done to the installation since I completed my work on the first visit, I would be only to pleased to return to try and solve this problem, my hour rate is £....

 

[Andy_Reynolds51]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but gives some good learning points. Best to test the installation before conducting any works to see if you will inherit a problem. Best done with the customer and other trades out of the way and not interfering. With a change of consumer unit you may not have the length of cables required to make it look good or follow the convention of highest load next to the incomer but have to go your best when under the scrutiny of other trades and the unqualified internet experts. Testing upon completion also helps to defend your position especially as other trades continue to work on site. It is possible some disturbance may have occurred unbeknown to them or others. Due to the delay of four days before a problem is noticed it could be weather related - outdoor lighting? Could it be component failure, even if new equipment? Could be the neutral of one circuit being returned to the other neutral bar - split load board but has been known. Interference, additional circuits or modifications since departing site? Some things to consider.

 

[telectrix]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but gives some good learning points. Best to test the installation before conducting any works to see if you will inherit a problem. Best done with the customer and other trades out of the way and not interfering. With a change of consumer unit you may not have the length of cables required to make it look good or follow the convention of highest load next to the incomer but have to go your best when under the scrutiny of other trades and the unqualified internet experts. Testing upon completion also helps to defend your position especially as other trades continue to work on site. It is possible some disturbance may have occurred unbeknown to them or others. Due to the delay of four days before a problem is noticed it could be weather related - outdoor lighting? Could it be component failure, even if new equipment? Could be the neutral of one circuit being returned to the other neutral bar - split load board but has been known. Interference, additional circuits or modifications since departing site? Some things to consider.

this is why it's imperetive to take pics of your finished work. THEN IF ANYTHING HAS BEEN DONE (BY CUSTOMERS OR OTHER CONTRACTORS/TRADES), you have proof of how youleftit.

 

[richy3333]

We always take pics of our finished work and have now started using stick on seals that can only be removed by cutting them - so you know somebody has tampered with the CU

 

[loz2754]

We always take pics of our finished work and have now started using stick on seals that can only be removed by cutting them - so you know somebody has tampered with the CU

That's a good idea. Where do you get the seals please?

 

[littlespark]

That's a good idea. Where do you get the seals please?

Some goof gaffa tape would do the same job. Obvious that it’s been peeled off

 

[telectrix]

That's a good idea. Where do you get the seals please?

from the seal fairy. where else?

 

[stevethesparks]

from the seal fairy. where else?

I was banking on you saying the circus

 

[loz2754]

from the seal fairy. where else?

Thanks telectrix, fairy helpful.

 

[stevethesparks]

Joking aside, I'd like to hear what the final outcome is @ Apple1973 and hope you can resolve it satisfying all parties.

 

[UNG]

Something isn't ringing true with the OP for me, there is no clear reason why the customer wants a refund, the language also seems a bit strange my wife would talk to me not confront me,
Those points aside we are told the RCD tripped 4 days after install and keeps tripping but with no indication of the frequency or timing of the continual trips
Another electrician has apparently unsuccessfully looked for the fault after the OP's husband so does this fault really exist on the fixed wiring as 2 electricians haven't found any reason that would cause the reported issue
I think until the electrician involved can post his account of events leading up to the customer requesting a refund it is difficult to make a judgement

 

[richy3333]

That's a good idea. Where do you get the seals please?

Here you go, link below. https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07WQRCM9P/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[loz2754]

Here you go, link below. Amazon.co.uk - https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07WQRCM9P/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Great thanks

 

[Mike Johnson]

Here you go, link below. https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07WQRCM9P/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Ohh I like those, must get me some, do they print them in French, kidding. ?

 

[Timbo]

Or for those who have a Brother P-touch label printer:

Brother TZE-SE4 - 18mm Black on White Security Tape

TZ-SE4 - 18mm Black on White Security Tape for Brother P-Touch printers. Free UK delivery & fast despatch.

www.labelzone.co.uk

and create your own.

 

[nicebutdim]

Or for those who have a Brother P-touch label printer:

Brother TZE-SE4 - 18mm Black on White Security Tape

TZ-SE4 - 18mm Black on White Security Tape for Brother P-Touch printers. Free UK delivery & fast despatch.

www.labelzone.co.uk

and create your own.

The Amazon labels would work out cheaper.

 

[Mike Johnson]

True, but I can't get them in French.

Thanks for that Timbo, did not know that existed.

 

[nicebutdim]

Sure you can..

Amazon.fr : étiquette de sécurité

www.amazon.fr

None in dog bone shape, but plenty of suitable French text alternatives.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Must try harder, past my bedtime. ??

 

[Rockingit]

We always take pics of our finished work and have now started using stick on seals that can only be removed by cutting them - so you know somebody has tampered with the CU

I carry a pot of blue nail varnish - tiny dab acts as a security seal on screws.

 

[pc1966]

I carry a pot of blue nail varnish - tiny dab acts as a security seal on screws.

Nail varnish is also a great option as thread-lock substitute on small screws, or for stopping trim pots moving, etc, and often readily available nearby in chemist or supermarket.