Discuss OSO hotwater boiler_Issue heating the water in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

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I currently rent a flat, which uses an OSO hotwater boiler to heat the water but it seems there is an issue heating the water and I thought to ask here in case anyone would have an answer before I ask my landlady to call an electrician.

Attached is an image of the boiler on Pic1 and on Pic2 is the switch with a timer (in red circle) which is linked to the boiler.

The issue is that whenever I take a shower and use all the hot water then there is no hot water until the next day. I asked the concierge in the building and they told me I need to move the switch of the timer to the “permanent” position so the boiler can heat the water instantly.

It’s been a week since I did this, but it seems the issue still persists. For example, the other day I took a shower at 1pm and used all the hot water. I then went to take another shower at 10pm and there was no hot water. There was enough time in between for the boiler to heat the water, but that didn’t happen.

Does anyone know why is this happening?
 

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I would turn on the switch marked water heater it looks like the tank has 2 heating elements the lower one should be controlled by the night immersion switch and a night time economy 7 tariff the top element should be controlled by the water heater switch and the timeclock this would heat the water during the day to whatever program is set on the time clock
 
I would turn on the switch marked water heater it looks like the tank has 2 heating elements the lower one should be controlled by the night immersion switch and a night time economy 7 tariff the top element should be controlled by the water heater switch and the timeclock this would heat the water during the day to whatever program is set on the time clock

So, if only the "Night Immersion" switch is on at the moment, then at what time does the system start heating the water?

By the way, I don't know if this matters but my electricity is with British Gas and I'm on the pay as you go tariff like I have a prepayment meter. So, I don't know if the economy 7 tariff is applicable in my case.
 
So, if only the "Night Immersion" switch is on at the moment, then at what time does the system start heating the water?
Economy 7 is usually 7 hours of cheaper electricity between midnight and 7am although these times can drift a bit to prevent a large network surge
By the way, I don't know if this matters but my electricity is with British Gas and I'm on the pay as you go tariff like I have a prepayment meter. So, I don't know if the economy 7 tariff is applicable in my case.
Can you post a picture of the electricity meter and the cables connected to it so we can possibly identify how it is working
 
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Economy 7 is usually 7 hours of cheaper electricity between midnight and 7am although these times can drift a bit to prevent a large network surge

Can you post a picture of the electricity meter and the cables connected to it so we can possibly identify how it is working
I'm new to the flat and I'm still trying to find where the electricity meter is. I don't think it's in my flat, because the only thing with numbers is that panel where I put the electricity key to transfer the money so I can have electricity in the flat.

I wanted to ask the concierge today for the meter, but he was never in the office. So, next time I find it I'll post a photo. For now, I took the below photo if that helps with the cables etc.
 

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Can you post a picture or two of all the electrical controls on the right hand wall of the cylinder cupboard it looks like you have a mains isolator and a service head so where you put the electricity key is likely to be the meter
 
Hi All,

I'm wondering if anyone could assist with another issue I have with this water tank. So, after my first posts I figured out what I need to do to heat the water whenever I want to. I was just switching on the Water Heater switch whenever the hot wate was gone and the whole water was heated in about 4-5 hours.

Now all of a sudden without me changing anything, the water was being heated for only 1 hour and that was not lasting not even for 5 mins of shower (!)

A plumber came and replaced some parts (in red circle on attached photo). But the issue still persists. I'm getting very frustrated!

Anyone has any experience why this might be happening?
 

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Nicole: The time switch you circled in red in pic 2 of #1 controls the top element which heats the upper volume of the tank. For the timer to run the Left switch marked 'Water Heater' must be on and its orange light glowing - is the orange light glowing? If it is not glowing then open up the lid of the consumer unit above and search for a circuit breaker which says 'water heater' - is the lever up or down? It needs to be up for power to the 'water heater'.

For now the timer needs to be in the 'constant ' mode which is when the small knob is in the 'I' position. If the water heater switch is on and the orange light glowing and the small knob in the I position then the top element should be on and heating up the water in the upper volume.

Did the plumber change the thermostat in the top or bottom element or both?

Now to the bottom element. Being at the bottom it will heat the full volume of water but since it is a larger volume of water than for the top element it will necessarily take longer. It should be connected to a so-called 'off peak' supply. I suspect - but need you to find out for me - that this element is turned on and off by your electricity meter - the one you put your key card into. Obviously the right hand immersion switch needs to be on ie rocker down. You may not see its orange light come on unless the time is during the off peak tariff period. There are a number of off peak tariffs on offer - some which only provide cheaper electricity over night 0000 to 0700 called Economy 7 and others which also provide some periods during the day and evening eg Economy 10. To find out whether you have an off peak tariff and which one I need you to look at your bills from your electricity supplier or to ring them up. Or you can take a photo of your bill and attach it for me to look at but do cover up your name, address and account details beforehand.

I also need photos of the full electricity board on the right side wall of the water tank cupboard and one of your prepayment meter - cover up any account details. Also lift up the lid of the consumer unit and take a picture of the rows of switches (circuit breakers) and what is written underneath them.

The advice in the first two paragraphs I hope will provide you with some hot water albeit only half a tank's worth until we sort out the bottom element.
 
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Yes, the orange light of the “Water Heater” switch is glowing. Also, it’s been a few months now that I have the timer to the permanent position and never changed that again.

The plumber changed the thermostat in both the top and bottom elements.

I don’t have anything in that cupboard where the tank is that says “Off peak”. Also, back in October I changed to a credit meter.

About the righthand side switch that says “Night immersion” you are right. I never see the orange light on.

As for the economy 7, I had called British Gas and they told me I’m not on Economy 7. I’m on the variable tariff.

I called OSO and I’ve sent them photos, the replacements that were done by the plumber and what the issue is and they told me that probably the immersion heater is faulty. Could that be right?

The plumber told me that he has ordered new parts for the cylinder, hasn’t told me what these parts are.

Photo attached of the consumer unit.

Thanks for your help!
 

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Thank. Are you able to send me a picture of your meter and the items around it please?

The reason I want this picture is I suspect the electricity supply for your night immersion heater is or has been controlled by the meter. To take advantage of cheap overnight electricity ie E7 you need to sign up for this tariff and you are not it seems. So your meter will not turn on the bottom element on during the E7 cheap rate period.

There are a number of ways to control an immersion heater to use E7 which is why I need the picture(s).
 
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The plumber changed the thermostat in both the top and bottom elements.
It may be the thermostat is set a little too low in temperature but we can come to that later.
I don’t have anything in that cupboard where the tank is that says “Off peak”. Also, back in October I changed to a credit meter.
Please send me a picture of meter and what is around it.
About the righthand side switch that says “Night immersion” you are right. I never see the orange light on.
When/if you get up in the night betwee 0000 and 0700 could you take a look at the right switch for the Night Immersion and see if the orange light is glowing? Don't do it exactly at 0000 or 0700 'cos the switch on and offs can be staggered.
As for the economy 7, I had called British Gas and they told me I’m not on Economy 7. I’m on the variable tariff.
I am on a variable tariff but still have E7. Just look at your latest bill since the new credit meter and see if you can see day and night rates.
I called OSO and I’ve sent them photos, the replacements that were done by the plumber and what the issue is and they told me that probably the immersion heater is faulty. Could that be right?
Yes it could be the bottom element has failed. But I cannot say anymore just now. You are getting hot water from the top element still?
The plumber told me that he has ordered new parts for the cylinder, hasn’t told me what these parts are.

Photo attached of the consumer unit.

Thanks for your help!
:)
 
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I wouldn't mind sending a pic of the meter reading, but where can I find this? Would it be in a communal area in the building or in the cupboard where the water tank is?

Yes, I'm only getting hot water from the top element.

I looked at the latest bill and there are no day or night charges. Attached the latest bill for your info if that helps.
 

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I would expect it to be where your previous prepayment by money key/token was located.

And not far away at all from the grey thing with 100A written on the side nor far from your consumer unit. Can you ask neighbour where their one is?

Your bill shows you are on a single rate tariff of 38p a kiloWatthour with no cheaper rate periods at night or during the day.

Do you have electric space heating?
 
Photo attached of the meter. Does this help?

Can I ask British Gas to add me to the E7? or how is this done?

Do you have electric space heating?
Yup, I have electric heaters to heat the rooms if that's the question. I don't have gas at all in the flat.
 

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Nicole - I think any further advice from me will have to await the repair by the plumber using the parts on order: do you have a return date?

Once this is done you need to confirm with him which element he has left connected to the timer which is to the left of the Delta Dore controller labelled 'Heating'.

Then we need to have another discussion including changing your tariff to one which includes periods of cheap electricity if your usage of space and water heating suits those on offer/available to you.

Is your flat similar to others in the block? If your flat's design for water and space heating is repeated in neighbouring flats it would be helpful to see some pictures of their electrical equipment ie the sort of pictures you have provided me already.

Is this fine with you for now? Do say if not.
 
Well, I'm confused to be honest I worry if the plumber makes things worse and end up without hot water at all.

How is it possible that after he changed the parts it worked for a day and then the next day nothing? That's what I don't understand. What could that mean?

I just feel that if I don't understand a little bit what is happening then I don't know if I can understand whether he knows what he is doing or not.

Could it be a problem with the switches and not the water tank at all?
 
Well, I'm confused to be honest I worry if the plumber makes things worse and end up without hot water at all.

How is it possible that after he changed the parts it worked for a day and then the next day nothing? That's what I don't understand. What could that mean?

I just feel that if I don't understand a little bit what is happening then I don't know if I can understand whether he knows what he is doing or not.

Could it be a problem with the switches and not the water tank at all?

While anything is possible (almost), I'd advise continuing with the investigative process started by @marconi

He seems to be working methodically through the possibilities and providing the information requested will result in a thorough analysis of the problem. Granted this may not be as fast as a visit from a local spark, but his help here isn't being charged at an hourly rate.
 
Nicole: Thank you for your last post. You are clearly exasperated and who wouldn't be. I'll explain what I think is the situation at the moment.

1. Your flat relies on electricity for space and water heating. To be most economic you need to be on a dual rate electricity tariff such as Economy 7 or Economy 10. These provide periods of cheaper rate electricity. Time switches are used to turn the space heating and water heating on and off to utilise the cheaper rate periods. At the moment you do not have a dual rate tariff. I believe you 'lost' a dual rate tariff when you swapped from the pre-payment meter to a credit meter with British Gas.

2. Your hot water tank has two elements, the bottom one to use cheaper rate electricity and the top one as a boost using whatever tariff is operating when it is on. What I cannot know now is whether the time switch to the left of the Delta Dore controller was for the bottom element to switch it on during cheap rate; the top element being then simply controlled manually by the left hand 'Water Heater' switch - you'd have to remember to turn it on and off.

3. I reckon though that the time switch to the left of the Delta Dore is for the top element as it is used now. The bottom element was then being switched on and off for the cheap rate by the old prepayment meter. There is a hint to this set up by the thinner brown grey vertical wire going into the brown plastic box with 'PROTEUS' written on it. I believe it previously went into your old prepayment meter. But since your change to a credit meter, which does not have an output which switches on and off during cheap rate, it has been connected to the brown box which now provides a permanently on supply for the bottom element. The bottom element is now only being controlled manually by the right hand 'Night Immersion Heater' switch. Thus, the change from prepayment to credit meter has resulted in no time control of the bottom element meaning it has been on constantly albeit regulated in temperature by its thermostat. Meter change men/women are not obliged to ensure any downstream effects of the meter change are attended to. So since your meter change I believe - perhaps you can confirm from experience - the top element has been controlled on/off by the time switch left of the Delta Dora and the bottom element has been on permanently if its switch is on.

4. Now, I may not have the full history of this panel correct because one can see a square white plastic blank fitting bottom left below the 'Immersion Heater' switch. It may have once had a square timer here which looks like this:

Electrisaver Immersion Heater Booster - https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Water_Heating_Index/Immersion_Heater_Timers_2/index.html

or this

24 Hour GP/Immersion Heater Timeswitch - Flush/Surface | Timeguard (NTT01) - https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/SMNTT01.html

These would control the top element. The timer to the left of the Delta Dora would then do the bottom element.

5. With me so far? ;-)

6. Good. You told me that you had never seen the right hand 'Night Immersion Heater' switch orange light on when the switch is on. This is odd because now, since the credit meter, it has a permanent supply all day long via the red switch and the 16A circuit breaker on the far right of the consumer unit and it is clear from the photo that these two switches are both on - they in the up position. This indicates that the supply has been disconnected somewhere at or before the 'Night Immersion Heater' switch. This begs the question why would someone do this?

7. I suspect - cannot know for certain - the plumber has disconnected the supply to the bottom element because he found it defective. The spare on order would be the replacement element. He may have temporarily connected the top element to the timer to the left of the Delta Dora to the top element or it may have been always so.

8. I cannot investigate the disconnected supply because it would require live electrical equipment to be opened up. This is why I said we must wait for the plumber to return and finish his work and I asked you to clarify with him how the top and bottom elements have been connected.

9. When we have two working elements we can discuss dual rate tariffs which depending on your lifestyle and electricity use profile may be more economical. You could have a read of these in the meantime from which you will learn about E7 and E10 and some other tariffs.

What is an Economy 7 meter? | Understanding Economy 7 - https://www.uswitch.com/gas-electricity/guides/economy-7/

What is Economy 10? A complete guide to Economy 10 meters and tariffs - https://www.uswitch.com/gas-electricity/guides/economy-10/

7 facts about Economy 7 meters, tariff and times - https://www.edfenergy.com/energywise/all-you-need-know-about-economy-7

10. I hope this provides some clarification. The most important thing to say is that as a tenant your landlord is responsible for fixing this problem in a timely fashion using qualified contractors. It is reasonable to wait say a week maybe two weeks at most for spare parts but any longer it is not. How long ago since the plumber visited?

11. I have sent you my mobile number if you want to call me. If I don't answer straight away leave a message or send me a text/whatsapp.

PS: Re your #6 - it looks like the top element white wire goes into the timer and the bottom element white wire goes into the white plastic trunking - is this still the case?
 
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Well, I'm confused to be honest I worry if the plumber makes things worse and end up without hot water at all.

How is it possible that after he changed the parts it worked for a day and then the next day nothing? That's what I don't understand. What could that mean?
Please describe in more detail if you can.
I just feel that if I don't understand a little bit what is happening then I don't know if I can understand whether he knows what he is doing or not.

Could it be a problem with the switches and not the water tank at all?
Yes it could be a problem with switches or their connections but at the moment I reckon not.
 
Hi, I've been meaning to give an update but I've been so busy with life and frustrated with this water heater situation that I didn't want to think about it anymore. I cannot believe that basically it took us 3.5 weeks since the issue started and the issue is still there. I'm only a tenant and shouldn't really been bothering with all this, but my landlady does try to be honest.

So, basically the plumber came on Saturday and changed both immersion heaters and the thermostats. Photo attached. He said that he changed everything that he could on the cylinder and if there are still issues then an electrician needs to have a look.

Again, if I switch on the "Water heater" it works for one hour and then it stops. If I switch on the "Night Immersion" it works only if you sort of play with it a little bit which I'm scared to even touch.

Would you think that an electrician needs to come and have a look at the switches? Like all this time maybe the issue was with that?

If it was up to me, I would have just replaced the cylinder to begin with.

I'm just conscious if these people are just lying so they can take the money knowing that the issue cannot be resolved.
 

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From what you said in your last message it looks like the Night Immersion Switch is faulty or there is a loose connection. When you played with the night immersion switch did the orange light illuminate?
 
Do the hands of the Grasslin timer switch show the correct time?

At the moment the picture you sent of it shows it on in these periods when timer mode is selected and the correct time is set on the hands:

1000-1200

1800-2030

2130-2230

2330-2400

(You may have changed these times in which case please send me a new photo).

Does the vertical cable from it still go to the top element?

For the timer to keep the correct time the left hand water heater switch must be left on. You can then use the three position slider switch near the hands to control the top heater, the three positions being timed mode, off and permanently on.
 
Nicole_ I hope you are just busy and not that you are tired of all my questions ;-)

I want to give you some questions for an electrician to answer once he/she has visited and inspected what's what - because there will need to be a visit paid for by your landlady. But just need a little more information first. We can bowl out the tank and its heaters now as the problem.

There are female electricians if you would prefer one to visit. We can also see if a trusted forum member is near by.
 
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Hi marconi! Sorry I didn’t reply, I was just busy. Thanks again for all the info though. So to answer the questions.

Night Immersion- The orange light doesn’t illuminate. It actually goes on and off. Like it’s flashing sometimes. But, the majority of the time it’s off.

Grasslin timer- I changed the times today because my landlady asked me to do so to check if it’s going to work. I did but still it doesn't work. Just to say again though, that this timer I have it on the permanent position which means that it doesn’t matter anyway what times I put there. If a photo is still needed then let me know.

Vertical cable- I don’t know exactly where it goes to because they get mixed under that white thing and then I don’t know where it ends up.

Electrician- My landlady said she has asked the plumber to bring an electrician. But, yes if there is a trusted forum member I could consider and pass the info to the landlady.

What questions would you recommend asking the electrician?
 
What is your district in Liverpool so I can make some enquiries about forum electricians in your area?

The items I have highlighted in bold are what you need to address with the electrician.

The flashing orange light is not right. Please leave that switch turned off for now. It needs an electrician to investigate.

If the hands of the Grasslin timer are not moving and keeping correct time then it is duff and requires replacement.
But as you say in constant on mode that provides power to the immersion top heater controlled by the left hand switch. But you only heat the volume of water above the heater as heat rises. To keep the correct time it needs the left hand switch to be left on - is this what you have done?

Your installation is lacking a way of turning the bottom element on and off to match off peak electricity rates. An electrician will have to provide another time switch for the bottom element. See my recommendation at the end.

You are on the wrong type of tariff for electric water and space heating because you have no periods of off peak electricity.
Have a chat with a neighbour who has electric water and space heating and find out what scheme of off peak tariff they use, the two most common be Economy 7 which is night time only and Economy 10 which is night time and some day time periods also. Study this link and then think about which is best for you:

What is Economy 10? A complete guide to Economy 10 meters and tariffs - https://www.uswitch.com/gas-electricity/guides/economy-10/#:~:text=How%20Is%20Economy%2010%20different,hours%2C%20usually%20in%20the%20afternoon.

The good thing about E7 and E10 is that they apply to all the flat's electricity consumption during the periods of lower rate which means one can with an eye on the clock or using timer functionality in the appliance run washer, dryer, dishwater or cooker and benefit from cheaper electricity. If your meter is not capable of dual rate then it will have to be swapped for one that is by your electricity supplier.

I want to see if your Landis and Gyr E470 electricity meter is capable of dual rate. Please would you follow what this short video tutorial shows and tell me what the display toggles between:


For Megan, who had a problem with her electric heating control we fitted this single timer which can control both the top and bottom elements and arrives preset with the common economy rate tariffs like E7 and E10 so all the electrician has to do is select the one you have arranged with your electricity supplier. Nice and simple to use. A rocker switch to select the bottom element Always off/timed and a button to press to increment a boost period time duration for the top element in steps of 1/2, 1 and 2 hours which can be cancelled after selection should one wish. Two lights indicate which element is on. See:

Sangamo Powersaver Dual Flexi Timer and Boost | Sangamo (PSDF2) - https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/SGPSDF2.html
 
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So, the electrician came and he said everything looks fine. He took the cover out of the switches to check the cables and he said there is nothing wrong. He set the times and raised the temperature on the thermostat. Will keep an eye to see if the water gets heated etc now.

For the flashing light, he said it’s just the neon that is not working.

About the grasslin- If I have it on the constant on mode, then does it matter if the time is wrong when I switch it on?

I need to look at the tariff.

I need to dedicate an evening reading through all this information you have provided and understand things better. All these are so new to me and I’m trying to understand.
 
About the grasslin- If I have it on the constant on mode, then does it matter if the time is wrong when I switch it on? No. Top element will be completely controlled by Water Heater switch.

For the flashing light, he said it’s just the neon that is not working. It is safe to use then. Would have been nice to replace with a new switch with working neon but you can live with it.

One query which you have not reported on is what to do about time control for the lower element. This can be sorted out when you have decided on whether and which off peak tariff to use and from which supplier.

Just be careful drawing off hot water since the thermostat temperatures have been increased - it could be very hot now.

Please keep me posted on what you decide to do next.
 
I feel compelled to comment on the matter of the dual rate tariff.
There is a down side in that peak rate electricity is more expensive when you move to a dual rate tariff, so you need to be using a good proportion of power at night (between 45% and 50% is the break point) otherwise there is no saving, in fact the opposite, it is more costly!
If there is storage heating (in use) powered from off-peak, then a dual rate may be more economical, at least for the winter.
If heating is powered partly or completely by normal rate (eg convector or panel heaters), and the 45-50% demand for off-peak is not met, the overall cost will be greater on a dual rate (eg E7).'

I moved from E7 to single rate tariff because heating our 220 litre Cylinder is cheaper that way. We don't have storage heating.

To work out the exact position, you need the rate costs from your supplier, and an idea of the ratio of daytime consumption (or load) to night time consumption/load.
 
I feel compelled to comment on the matter of the dual rate tariff.
There is a down side in that peak rate electricity is more expensive when you move to a dual rate tariff, so you need to be using a good proportion of power at night (between 45% and 50% is the break point) otherwise there is no saving, in fact the opposite, it is more costly!

While this is generally the case, I've seen E7 tariffs with peak rate maybe only 0.5 pence more expensive than 24 hour tariff since prices have shot up. Always worth looking at options and keeping an eye on suppliers.
 
While this is generally the case, I've seen E7 tariffs with peak rate maybe only 0.5 pence more expensive than 24 hour tariff since prices have shot up. Always worth looking at options and keeping an eye on suppliers.
I may be gullible taking this at face value: https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/economy-7/

The average figures I've looked at have a notable disparity between on and off peak rates - eg
93025B2A-9CF8-438C-BA79-7B4D1BC294F9.jpeg
Figures do vary quite a bit, and I guess it all depends what you can find /negotiate!
 
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I may be gullible taking this at face value: https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/economy-7/

The average figures I've looked at have a notable disparity between on and off peak rates - eg
View attachment 107313

Just checked Power NI and the difference has widened slightly since last year, but the tariff I'd looked at for a customer with keypad is now 33.73 pence/kWh peak, against 29.42 pence on a 24hr rate. Not insignificant, but considerably less in percentage terms than prior to price hikes.
 
I called British Gas again the other day and asked them if I can have the E7 rate. They said an engineer would have to come to install this but there was nothing available in the next month.

Reading all the comments above that if I get E7 then the day rate will increase, I have started considering whether I would like to have the dual rate.

P.S: I don't know if that's a miracle, but since the electrician came two weeks ago somehow I have enough hot water again. I don't know whether the fact that he opened the lids of the two switches and looked ad the cables made a difference. I have no idea! I still have a fear though that all of a sudden I things might stop working again lol. This whole thing was a bad experience because both the plumber and electrician didn't really know what was wrong.
 
Once you have had an E7 meter installed, and if you find that your electricity costs have increased, you do not have to have the meter changed again to go back to a 24 hour tariff. There might well be a minimum contract term for your E7 tariff or exit fees to pay before it expires, but your supplier should be able to offer an E7 tariff where day and night rates are exactly the same, and identical to the 24 hour tariff.
I recently did this with a couple of Eon accounts, and although they initially said that such a tariff doesn't exist, and I would need to have 'smart' meters fitted, I knew full well that they did, and after 13 emails, and 13 replies, I was transferred to the 24 hour tariff equivalent.
 

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