Problems with a new solar install

[heliosfa]

Hi All,

I have just had a PV install done on my property this week and reading some of the posts here and the MCS guidlines, etc. I am now a little concerned that it hasn't been done properly so I was hoping I could get some opinions from the professionals who frequent these boards

The install was a 3.27KW array and consisted of 10x Sunpower 327W panels and a Samil(?) inverter. This was installed by two blokes (one roofer and one sparky) who turned up in a van with ladders (no scaffold). The sparky got on with the AC wiring/export meter install/inverter install while the roofer was up on the roof installing the brackets/panels. They arrived at about 10:30 and were done by 15:00.

I have already had them back once as they REALLY messed up the AC electrical work by sticking a Henley block in upside down, using 16mm^2 cable from the normal meter to the Henley block when the original cabling from meter to CU was 25mm^2 (100A CU and 100A service fuse) and by leaving ~5mm of exposed LIVE meter tail in the CU where it goes into the main breaker. When I called the companies technical line, their "projects manager" was very concerned and did get another electrician out to sort it this morning.


My current concerns are that:

• The DC cables under the panels seem to be dangling and sat on the roof. I have read in another thread that this does not meet the building regs/17th Edition - can anyone tell me exactly where this is specified in the 17th please?
• The DC cables were brought into the property by the roofer hitting the "felt" with what looked, from the inside, like a hammer and making a rather ragged hole in it (the electrician did seem to be trying to guide him to put them through the seam that was under a foot above). You can now see roof times through this hole which is about 2" in diameter for 4x DC cables.
• The DC cables appear to go under a normal tile.
• The panels don't all look level, some seem to be raised at their edges above the others
• No documentation/certification/handover pack has been left - the only thing that has been left says that I will get the MCS and proof of ownership when I pay the outstanding balance. What should have been left and what tests should have been done & documented?

I haven't checked DC cable size or bracket spacing yet, but I am sure I can do this if it is useful.

The brackets were installed by the roofer lifting some tiles and drilling/screwing into the rafters. I didn't see if he was doing any sort of weather proofing or sealing once the brackets were back on.


Just a bit of background on the company - I went with them as they seemed to get good reviews online and all of their registrations checked out. The person who came to do the initial quotation and "survey" (consisted of photos of roof, loft and meter area and guestimated measurements of roof space) was very knowledgeable and said that they had their own scafold, used their own installers, etc. THe people who turned up to do the install were wearing sweaters with a different company name on and came from about two to three hours away from me. Apparently they also had another install in the area booked for the same/next day.


Obviously there is something wrong with this install and I am unlikely to pick up on it all, as I am merely an Electronic Engineer and not an electrician/solar installer, so is it worth getting some one else in to have a look? how much is this likely to cost me?

Thanks in advance from a very concerned home-owner

 

[Earthstore]

I would suggest you post some pics if you can, you may have to get admin on here to approve them though as you are new here..

Hope this helps a little?

 

[Gavin A]

re the DC cables, it's not specific, but if I remember right, there are statements about ensuring cables are adequately fixed / protected from external influences / environmental factors.

Tiles... cables between tiles can be ok if they're protected - we usually run them clipped next to a bracket having ground out a slot for the bracket and cable, then protect them above and below with sections of ali flashing to stop them rubbing on the tiles. If they're not protected in any way, then I'd view this as a problem, especially if they're not cable tied to stop them from moving around and rubbing.

Check if the tiles are sticking up enough for rain to get driven in under them, if the bracket is 5mm or so off the tile below it to stop of banging on the tile, and potentially breaking it, and if there are any broken tiles.

When you say this was done off ladders, what height is the roof? I drove past an install today half way through on a 2 storey roof with no sign of scaffolding. It's really not worth the risk at that height, though I know a lot of roofers are used to just working off ladders and roof ladders for days on end, so some will think nothing of it. Others though know it's wrong, but just need the work I guess so won't complain about it. Companies who do it though are risking an HSE prosecution (as well as their staff's lives).

 

[heliosfa]

Thanks for the input guys - I will post some photos a little later, I won't be able to get photos of the DC cabling until Saturday morning though.

 

[SpitfireW'sale]

Interesting that the install was for the most expensive modules on the market with one of the cheapest recognised brand of inverter. Not that there is anything wrong with this as such, it is just unusual to combine premium products with budget ones! If your scaffold is still up any issues with cable / panel alignment are a pretty easy fix, but it will cost the install company in labour so they will likely be reluctant to do it.

 

[MCS Renewables]

There are two appalling companies from the North currently targeting Southampton, hopefully you did not choose one of those!

One is from Stoke and the other from Ormskirk near Preston, and the standard of their sub contractors work has to be seen to be believed.

They may be cheap but you get what you pay for in the end.

This is one of the reasons you should buy local and from a trades person. There are plenty of decent installers in and around Southampton.

Your best bet is to contact REAL / RECC and start the complaints procedure. How To Complain - Consumers - Renewable Energy Consumer Code (RECC)

Some of the installs we have seen are so bad, we started this last year Renewable Rescue - Repairing Solar PV & Thermal Installations . We get at least three enquiries a week .

 

[heliosfa]

Interesting that the install was for the most expensive modules on the market with one of the cheapest recognised brand of inverter.

i'll have to take a look at the initial paperwork again as I won't think it said they were putting in a samil inverter. I am only going from the box that i saw them bring it in and I don't know the exact model as I haven't had a proper look at the inverter and I have been left with no paperwork...

re. The scaffold, they didn't use any - the roofer used a single ladder.

There are two appalling companies from the North currently targeting Southampton, hopefully you did not choose one of those!

One is from Stoke and the other from Ormskirk near Preston, and the standard of their sub contractors work has to be seen to be believed.

these were from Burton-on-Trent

This is one of the reasons you should buy local and from a trades person. There are plenty of decent installers in and around Southampton.

When I was looking, these guys came up and I got the (obviously wrong) impression that they used local agents. I will admit that I probably didnt look hard enough for local installers when I was looking.

The problem in my experience with small and local is they do go out of business - my parents had a panel install done a few years ago by a local installer but his company went bust. Luckily the guy was brilliant and did an absolutely proper job on it and we have had no problems. We would have used him again for this job if he was still working

 

[heliosfa]

Some photos of the exterior install






And of what they did to the AC install, followed by after a "maintenance engineer" came back to fix it:



And how they originally left the live tail into the CU:


Photos of the DC entry, DC cabling and inverter to follow tomorrow when I go back down to Southampton.

 

[MCS Renewables]

The ones from "Burton on Trent" are the ones I miss-labelled "Stoke" .....sorry

Appalling "Project" !

They have a young lady sales rep called Sam , the company has had loads of name changes since MCS registration obviously dumping its liabilities every time.

I agree small and local tradesmen do go out of business, however generally they need to maintain their good name to ensure they get repeat business and they are also close by for any issues that arise.

You have to wonder what happens with these bad "Projects" once the subbies have legged it with the payment.
I expect after sales customer care is zero they just move onto the next victim.

 

[heliosfa]

The ones from "Burton on Trent" are the ones I miss-labelled "Stoke" .....sorry

Appalling "Project" !

They have a young lady sales rep called Sam , the company has had loads of name changes since MCS registration obviously dumping its liabilities every time.

oh dear... And a cursory Google came up with mostly-decent reviews...

so far, their after-sales have been ok and they came out quickly to sort the AC side.

 

[MCS Renewables]

Heliosfa ...Your comment "when I pay the outstanding balance" will give you an indication for how long you will get quick after sales service !


Reading google reviews and website feedback is worthless as it can be done by anybody, you should have got phone numbers for previous customers.


You can only assume that companies from Burton on Trent and Ormskirk cannot get enough work within 50 miles of their base because they have a bad name locally.


We are based in Poole and have installations in Derby, Anglesey, Hertfordshire and throughout Wales because when solar started there was so few companies doing it, about 12 companies in total , therefore we had to travel. We also have jobs because relatives of our customer base want us to do it and they live in these places. We do not advertise for work outside our area because we do not need to and most decent companies are similar.


Ask yourself " why do the Burton on Trent crowd need to buy leads and find work in Southampton" ...


I will leave others to pick through the lack of main isolator, AC cable size, possible wrong inverter, lack of generation meter label, inverter probably in loft, poor DC wiring installation .........Project thrown in from the kerb in less than 5 hours .....what do you expect !

 

[heliosfa]

Heliosfa ...Your comment "when I pay the outstanding balance" will give you an indication for how long you will get quick after sales service !

I'd agree with that, but payment is due on completion and as far as I am concerned, the job is not complete yet as I have no documentation, test details, etc. etc.

I will leave others to pick through the lack of main isolator, AC cable size, possible wrong inverter, lack of generation meter label, inverter probably in loft, poor DC wiring installation .........Project thrown in from the kerb in less than 5 hours .....what do you expect !

the inverter is in the loft with DC and AC isolation switches (another pic), but to be honest there is no where else it could go - the property doesn't have a garage and the cupboard under the stairs (where all the current electrics and the boiler are) is tiny and full. The loft is floored and accessible.



Thanks for the input so far from everyone - I will get the other photos tomorrow and I will have a read through the MCS solar install book.

i may have missed saying this earlier, but the property is a fairly standard two-storey, 3-bed 1920s semi with hipped roof.

 

[MCS Renewables]

Does the AC cable go straight outside and up the outside wall ?
What size is the AC cable ?
How long is the AC cable run ?
Is it enclosed in conduit outside ?
How hot does your loft get in summer ?
What actual model inverter is it ?
Did they leave you an electrical certificate after adding a new circuit / mains board ?
Two DC strings yet only one DC isolator ?
I assume the DC isolator internal links have been removed ? ( internal photo required)
Laminated schematic at mains ?

 

[heliosfa]

AC cable goes out through a hole in the wall and straight up the exterior wall with no conduit (another pic, sorry they are all coming out sideways, no easy way to rotate them on an iPad). The sparky struggled to clip the cable to the wall as it is pebbledash and all of the nails are not in completely.



I'll have a look at the cable size tomorrow, but externally it is ~10mm in diameter. The run is about 10 to 15m in length.

the loft gets fairly warm in summer.

no electrical cert has been left - in fact no documentation has been left except for a sheet telling me that I will get MCS cert and proof of owner ship in the post, and a part-filled FIT application form for their recommended FiT supplier.




Re. The inverter, install documentation listed the inverter model as an "afore".

funnily enough, I have just had a voicemail from their accounts department asking me to call them on Monday re. BACS payment...

 

[MCS Renewables]

You need to find out the actual cable size of the AC wiring. Isolate then take cover off generation meter and photograph wiring so we can establish cable size , put cover back then re energise. The generation meter is the one without the "generation meter" label !

Get actual model of inverter and go online and locate installation manual, check minimum recommended cable size for AC .

Check quote to see if correct inverter was fitted. ( IMO ...Afore is only fit for mounting in a skip and as previously noted is a strange choice for these modules)

 

[heliosfa]

Ok, will do - tomorrow is set aside for fully documenting the install.

other an photos of the dangling DC, DC cable entry and mounting brackets and everything else asked for in the thread, is there any other info that would be helpful?

I've been having a look at renewable rescue - is there any issue with me involving you/them before I have paid the balance?


i just want to say thanks again - you are all being really helpful.


p.s. is anyone able to give me a rough ballpark figure of how much a 10-panel sun power system with decent inverter installed would be? Just to give me a yard-stick for how cheap/ripoff their price was.

 

[MCS Renewables]

You cannot involve Renewable Rescue until you have given the original installers the opportunity of putting the project right. It's very long winded so you are better off trying to sort it out without going legal. One of the companies a customer had serious issues with just changed its name and re registered and dumped the mess onto RECC.

If you keep supplying photos and information to the forum you can probably come up with a full list of issues and get them all dealt with yourself or get your money back.

As a guide between £6000-£7000 including VAT and EPC .
Includes German SMA inverter and sunny beam

 

[heliosfa]

OK, I have got the photos from my other camera and I have taken a lot more. I've also done a bit more digging and some reading of the install guide from MCS so sorry for the very long post(s).

First up: photos of the physical install.

First picture: one of the brackets going up. I didn't see any tile notching or weather sealing, not to say it didn't happen.


Brackets on the roof - looking quite uneven. Looking at them, they seem a little closer together than my joists?


The actual panels - I did discretely check that they said Sunpower on the back when they were stacked up here.


A couple of the roofer. he looks a little unstable up there...



The DC cables under the pannels have been left dangling like this, with loops and all by the looks:


This appears to be where the entry occurs for three of the DC cables at least - between a bracket and a tile. (sorry for the fuz, a tree decided to get in the way as I was taking the photo)



Inside the loft, there are scome screws sticking out of the joists and it looks like one of the joists has a cracked edge:

 

[heliosfa]

Second up, electrical install.

The DC cable is 4mm^2 and marked as "Solara Photovoltaics Cable 1x4.0mm^2 PV1-F 06/1 KV UV ROHS CE TUB 2PF0 1169/08.07 R609039880". Loop length from inverer to panels to inverter could be 10m to 15m for the top row and 15m to 20m for the bottom row. This is assuming that they were wired up in two strings as discussed with the top 4 pannels on the first string and the bottom 6 pannels on the second string.

The black 3-core AC cable going outthe wall and straight up looks like 2.5mm^2 and is marked "Pesco MN IEMMEQU < HAR> HO5VV-F 3G2.5". The total run length is in the region of 10m to 15m.


The DC cable entry into the property is achieved through a hole made with a hammer in the material under the tiles. They also appear to have made a second hole for some reason? Sticking my fingers into the hole, i could feel the cables pressed between tiles. One of the cables goes in the opposite direction to the other three. During the rain and wind we had last night, there was a lot of wind coming through the hole.


Inside the DC isolator there is a significant amount of exmosed conductor, a number of frayed wires and the gromet securing ring for one of the entry points has undone itself or was never done up:


The Inverter is a SamilPower SolarRiver 3680TL. It is rated at 3.68KW (isn't this too large as it should be 80% to 100% of the panel capacity?) with a DC operating voltage range of 100-550V and a nominal operating voltage of 260V. Inverter max DC input is 20A and max AC output is 16A


The AC cable drop down the outside wall is completely unprotected and has been badly clipped (the sparky was getting very frustrated with the wall, saying that if he carried on he might hit the wall with the hammer in frustration as he could not get the nails into the pebble dash). One of the clips relased in the wind yesterday. The cable entry hole into the property does not appear to have been sealed in any way:



The export meter has been installed so that you cannot compltely move the protective cover out of the way. Cable looks like 2.5mm^2 and the Earth has been joined with a floating chocolate block.



Inside the "SolarDB" there is more exposed copper on the un-isolatable tails (luckily this one is the Neutral) and there are no shutters covering up the screw terminals. There is also frayed copper on the neutral feed to the export meter. The entry point in the bottom of the "SolarDB" cover is much larger than it needs to be - he broke out all of the snap-pieces across the bottom.


I think that that is everything.

 

[MCS Renewables]

Woeful, especially the non fixings into the timber as that must greatly affect the wind risks.

Do not let them back on site again as you have already let them return to put the faults right once.

I would not pay them the £5K balance, although offer them a goodwill payment of £200 on a credit card as then the entire invoice amount and project is covered by the credit card insurance as advised on a similar thread.

They are NAPIT members , NAP 17166 so make a complaint here : - NAPIT - complaints
Direct NAPIT to this thread so they know you this complaint cannot be swept under the carpet.
Get them to send out there own MCS assessor, they have one based in Southampton.
There will be no charge.
When fully satisfied later on put your comments on here so that NAPIT get fair feedback for dealing with the matter.

Send the CEO of RECC an email marked complaint here :- [email protected]
Send her a link to this thread, she loves the fact that installers on this forum are having to police the industry, as the organisation she fronts seems impotent.
(When fully satisfied later on, or not put your comments on here so that RECC get some feedback for dealing with the matter.)

Also start an MCS complaint here : Microgeneration Certification Scheme - Complaints

Make sure you keep copies of all of the paperwork you have received from the company as a customer complaint should trigger an automatic MCS audit. They should also get someone out to go through your entire "Project".

If you are feeling very vindictive send the photos of the idiot stood on the roof to the HSE asking if one man working on the roof with a ladder that obviously has no one footing it is permitted, and comment on how he carried the panels up whilst maintaining a three point of contact on the ladder and ask where we can purchase the invisible safety harnesses as lots of us on this forum would like them.

You can get a RIDDOR form here , How to make a RIDDOR report - RIDDOR - HSE , your photos are great evidence .