Your going to laugh lads!!!!!!! NVQ3 - Domestic!!!!!

[AP Electrical]

I personally feel this will end in a two-teir system with domestic on one side and commercial/industrial on the other, the nic, elecsa and napit are going to need to keep there turnover stable and as I've said the current tech cert could easily be condensed into a couple of weeks if just focused on domestic and a bit of H&S - dont see why jib wouldnt water tech cert down it's not like domestic need to know how a cage motor works or about phasor diagrams, if this did happen then i cant see domestic sparks being elevated in the industry, it'll just mean the 5DW become a grand lighter and then inaugurated as electrical trainee (week wonders!?!) pardon the pun but it just seem there trying to justify part p , its been a disaster and when it's reviewed in oct'11 they want to say 'yes we got some things wrong but look at this Nvq domestic thats how we'll sort it'. also If c&g did keep the syllabus for the 2356 (ind/comm/dom) that would put a definate line in the sand making domestic sparks the little brother to an approved spark - that cant be a good thing.
if theres devision on here now imagine when theres domestic vs commercial .....lol

 

[millwall ken]

I personally feel this will end in a two-teir system with domestic on one side and commercial/industrial on the other, the nic, elecsa and napit are going to need to keep there turnover stable and as I've said the current tech cert could easily be condensed into a couple of weeks if just focused on domestic and a bit of H&S - dont see why jib wouldnt water tech cert down it's not like domestic need to know how a cage motor works or about phasor diagrams, if this did happen then i cant see domestic sparks being elevated in the industry, it'll just mean the 5DW become a grand lighter and then inaugurated as electrical trainee (week wonders!?!) pardon the pun but it just seem there trying to justify part p , its been a disaster and when it's reviewed in oct'11 they want to say 'yes we got some things wrong but look at this Nvq domestic thats how we'll sort it'. also If c&g did keep the syllabus for the 2356 (ind/comm/dom) that would put a definate line in the sand making domestic sparks the little brother to an approved spark - that cant be a good thing.
if theres devision on here now imagine when theres domestic vs commercial .....lol

Which I believe is what a lot of people in the authorities want. Like something from the US...
I want to know for example: If you are a commercial spark, are YOU going to be allowed to do domestic work with your current quals, or are you going to have to do this new qual as well.

 

[malcolmsanford]

I know I keep ranting but please be patient with this old boy whilst I rant a little more.
If a young lad decides to come into the trade, and follows a set recognised standard to follow and acheive his goal of becoming a qualified electrician, and thats exactly what I and others did 42 years ago. Then who or what has the right 40 years down the road to say your not qualified any more.
Ok its acceptable to say you might not be up to speed with current regualations, because technology is and will always be changing. The money grabbers have taken care of that with 16th and 17th edition upgrades. I accept that. My point is that there should as many years ago, be a recognised proggression to becoming a qualified electrician once you are, YOU ARE, end off. You have worked and studied hard to pass your exams, you now deserve to be deemed qualified, and now your qualified you can follow a life long path of learning and experiancing the many diverse routes you can and will follow along your life as a qualified electrician. That may well mean you are better at some things than others, depending on what road you take. You might become a first class domestic sparks, you might become a maintenance electrician and be super quick at fault finding and getting gear up and running quickly, you might become an industrial installation sparks and be sh#t hot with your tube and tray work. (Blimey look at Steve's sets there all identical the guys mustard) Does not matter though cus once qualified your qualified and no money grabbing **** should ever be allowed to insult any of us by changing that. End of rant.

If you go back to post #36 where Serv attached the Draft proposal for this JIB Domestic Electrician Card on the part concerning admittance criteria it says that a gold card installation electrician, not even an approved, can have this title added onto the card. I believe also that there is going to be another card for PV installer, but again a gold card electrician can have this added to his card if they have done the PV course.

As far as I can see the electrician that was lucky enough to have taken the apprentice route with the old style qualifications of either B C or the 236 will not need to do this new NVQ.

 

[IQ Electrical]

If you go back to post #36 where Serv attached the Draft proposal for this JIB Domestic Electrician Card on the part concerning admittance criteria it says that a gold card installation electrician, not even an approved, can have this title added onto the card. I believe also that there is going to be another card for PV installer, but again a gold card electrician can have this added to his card if they have done the PV course.

As far as I can see the electrician that was lucky enough to have taken the apprentice route with the old style qualifications of either B C or the 236 will not need to do this new NVQ.

I agree, that's the way it looks based on the (sparse) information currently available.

 

[topquark]

Should have been a joiner!!!!

would you be a domestic joiner or commercial... first fix or second fix.. site or bench ???? imo if you cant do all your not a joiner !!!... ... just a little joke lads..
to lighten the mood !! arty3:

First fix defo, coz you don't need half as many tools

Can't see that the proposed change is going to change much apart from benefiting the course providers. Minimum of a degree please :dunce2:

 

[Electricalserv]

I can't for my life believe the reaction to this fantastic idea to tighten our industry up.


For years the industry has bemoaned the domestic sector, the 5dw's and the easy route in. Now it looks like the industry has sat up and offered an NVQ3 in domestic installtion to ensure competencey in that sector of all QS's.


Why nobody can see that this was the only option for Part P work I don't know?

If I can explain.


The schemes are only here because of Part P. Part P is the domestic sector only. The industry wanted to tighten up as a whole, so needed to stop unqualified members of the public gaining short course quals and starting up shop as one man bands.

For the schemes to then come out and say the only way we can do this is if all electricians sit the current city & guilds NVQ3 they would have not leg to stand on because the NVQ3 covers a range of activities that goes far beyond the scope that they cover. We have to remember they cover domestic only. No tray, no basket, no steel trunking!


So as an industry and as schemes they had to look at a qualification that covers PART P and that answer is an NVQ3 that covers domestic scope. A qualification that can say....I've been assessed on my practical work and I'm a competent electrician who works in dwellings.


All this bravado about driving rates down is absolute tosh!!! It will drive them up!!! At this very moment we have 5DW's in the domestic sector and thats what drived rates down. Unskilled men working in the sector for £80 a day.


This NVQ3 will qualifiy you as an electrician in domestic premises and it will be the same rate an any electrician in any sector from the JIB!


If the JIB decide to give the Domestic Electrician a lesser rate, it is they who are seperating the industry and they who are driving rates down and anyone who feels disgrunted about it needs to wake up. There is a wide variety of electricians now and we are all skilled in our own sectors and thats that!

 

[AP Electrical]

"This NVQ3 will qualifiy you as an electrician in domestic premises and it will be the same rate an any electrician in any sector from the JIB!"

I can see your chain of thought, but to become a 'domestic electrician' would be diff than a commercial electrician a lot of the tech knowledge wouldnt be needed thus speeding up the process for qualification as a domestic spark and there's no way the pay would be comparible as theres diff skill sets involved imo.

"If the JIB decide to give the Domestic Electrician a lesser rate, it is they who are seperating the industry and they who are driving rates down and anyone who feels disgrunted about it needs to wake up. There is a wide variety of electricians now and we are all skilled in our own sectors and thats that! "

JIB will do as they please no doubt, honestly cant see it changing a thing it's a smokescreen to keep the part p machine rolling.

 

[Guest123]

I haven't read the entire thread but this press release from the NIC explains the why's & wherefors quite well I think.

 

[AP Electrical]

I haven't read the entire thread but this press release from the NIC explains the why's & wherefors quite well I think.

Cant see could you repost pls.
ta

 

[IQ Electrical]

NICEIC | About Us | Press Releases

 

[Guest123]

NICEIC | About Us | Press Releases

 

[Electricalserv]

For work in the Commercial or Industrial Sectors, the minimum qualification requirement for Qualified Supervisors will be the new Level 3 NVQ Diploma in Installing Electrotechnical Systems and Equipment (Building and Structures).


Ahh so at last they are governing the commercial & industrial sectors aswell.


Best thing I've read from these schemes!!!

 

[Electricalserv]

The way i look at it is this: As it stands now all somebody has to do is sit the 17th (60 questions....open book....on line guess) and show he/she can perform safe isolation and prove this has been achieved, Then do an install for family/friend (buildings control) and then pay a fee to part p and there in the club.......totaly unacceptable. A minimum requirement should be the latest regs (2382), a MINIMUM 2392 ins and test and a good report from a previous employer that will show you are COMPETENT in the industry.

But the new way in will totaly exceed that.

This is how I look at it.

2382
2391
2330/2360 Level 3 tech cert
NVQ3 - Domestic
ECS H&S

or you're not in the club end of story. The tech cert takes a year the same as the NVQ3. 17th & 2391 are added extras. Which in my opinion should continue to be a must!

 

[malcolmsanford]

I'm on the fence to a degree here and agree with the Serv that the current levels of competence was not working, whether it was a 5 day course or whatever, and something had to be done, and the answer, or not as the case maybe is this new NVQ.

What galls me is, and always will be is 1 the dumbing down of the industry, 2 the governments/associations attempt to try and segregate our trade, in the exact same way they have done for the plumbing/gas industry. A Gas safe plumber now needs several costly certificates to work on domestic, domestic boilers, domestic appliances and then commercial, all these are different levels of competence according to their industry, all needing different certificates in order for work to be done on them, and it seems that we are going the same way.

The bottom line for me is train someone to be an Electrician first, and he will decide then if they wants to become commercial, industrial or domestic, or all 3. We would be up in arms if a doctor was just trained on heart surgery or oncology, without going through GENERAL TRAINING, the same with lawyers and nurses, but for us it is different, our betters or not, depending on your view, that includes the JIB, the NICEIC, ECA and Unions have allowed our skills to be devalued so much that most people think now they can leave being a baker for 30 years and in 5 weeks be a Domestic Installer/Electrician.

Is it ever going to now revert back to anything sensible, I doubt it, in all honesty this started 30 odd years ago with the diluted 2 yr course, and within my life time we will be a totally segregated trade, it is so sad to see, what was once a wonderful career is now aligned to being a plumber.

 

[Knobhead]

**Cancelled**

 

[Electricalserv]

The bottom line for me is train someone to be an Electrician first, and he will decide then if they wants to become commercial, industrial or domestic, or all 3. We would be up in arms if a doctor was just trained on heart surgery or oncology, without going through GENERAL TRAINING, the same with lawyers and nurses, but for us it is different, our betters or not, depending on your view, that includes the JIB, the NICEIC, ECA and Unions have allowed our skills to be devalued so much that most people think now they can leave being a baker for 30 years and in 5 weeks be a Domestic Installer/Electrician.

This is where I think think the industry has excelled. Instead of training people across the board in all sectors. You now focus on the sector you want and become a proffessional in. Whether its domestic, commercial or industrial.

When doctors finish their basic training they pick one area to specialise in. Yes they are trained in other aspects but they go for one and usually stick at it. Its the same princible here. If you want to be a domestic electrician stick to domestic qualifications. Learn domestic work. if you want to be a diverse electrician across the board take the divers qualification.

UI think this is a great move by the schemes and the JIB. Especially now that the JIB are on board and there will be a minimum wage domestic sparks can earn!

 

[Electricalserv]

I have my 2391 but do you think its neccesary for domestics? I know part p providers will let you do periodics with the 2392 as long as you SIT the 2391 within a year....no one said anything about actually passing it.
I think that the level 3 cert will definately prove competence but in this day and age how many will/can pay upwards of £1000 for it?

Well you can say how many can pay the £800 upwards for the current NVQ3.

The 2391-10 is a must mate. Competence in Inspection & Testing covers your back in the event of something going wrong. No other watered down Inspecting & Testing qual can do so!

 

[malcolmsanford]

This is where I think think the industry has excelled. Instead of training people across the board in all sectors. You now focus on the sector you want and become a proffessional in. Whether its domestic, commercial or industrial.

When doctors finish their basic training they pick one area to specialise in. Yes they are trained in other aspects but they go for one and usually stick at it. Its the same princible here. If you want to be a domestic electrician stick to domestic qualifications. Learn domestic work. if you want to be a diverse electrician across the board take the divers qualification.

UI think this is a great move by the schemes and the JIB. Especially now that the JIB are on board and there will be a minimum wage domestic sparks can earn!

sorry Serv you say it is good that general training for electricians is now no longer needed, that all you need to do is train for domestic, or PV, or Industrial, or Fire alarms only, that general training is no longer needed??

So we should not be trained generally and then decide to work in what we prefer??

 

[Electricalserv]

sorry Serv you say it is good that general training for electricians is now no longer needed, that all you need to do is train for domestic, or PV, or Industrial, or Fire alarms only, that general training is no longer needed??

So we should not be trained generally and then decide to work in what we prefer??

Malcom the general training is no longer required for some electricians. The industry has been split domestic/light commercial electricians and Heavy commercial/industrial.

I have no doubt the new NVQ3 - Domestic, will have steel conduit involved but won't have your baskets, trays, steel trunking & lots of unessessary areas that us domestic lads don't need in our locker.

This qualification will now give Domestic electricians an ability to stand tall and say we're Electricians too. We've been assessed and we're competent people. Not 5 day wonders and they will be a thing of the past.

If that means seperating from commercial and industrial sparks so be it. Its those who are the ones calling domestic electricians diet sparks. So I say good riddance!

 

[malcolmsanford]

Serv you have and never will hear me decry anyone doing domestic work, personally apart from core drilling it is my least favourite type of electrical work, I do not like it, the same that you do not like to do basket work, which again I don't like doing or tray work, which I don't mind.

If i had my way I would be building switch gear and panels doing all the wiring and connecting DB's as I enjoy that.

I think your missing my point, though I hate domestic work I can do it, though I hate tray I can do it, I love MICC work and can do it and I can do any type of containment work known to man, and some not known.

Why would you condone a practice that is not going to train a man to do as many differing types of work that the industry calls for. I can only surmise that your in favour of dumbing down the industry.