You're all cowboys! :D

[D Skelton]

So a customer phones up and wants a socket adding. For arguments sake it is to be surface mounted about a meter from an existing socket and cable is to be run in trunking. A quick and easy job for most

When you arrive, you find that the CU is an old rewireable, there's no RCD protection anywhere and bonding doesn't exist. You explain to the customer that what he originally thought would be a £40 job is now going to cost him £150 and his response is to laugh. Now just before the point where he tells you to get lost, there is a miniscule moment of time for you to come up with a way to resolve this problem.

Now in this situation, we should all know what is the right and what is the wrong way to approach this situation however my question is, what would you do?

Would you:

A. Let him tell you to get lost, don't do the work and walk away knowing full well that DIY Dan will be round the next morning to do the job.

B. Tell him that this is how it should be done but do the job anyway noting on the MWC that the customer did not want to pay to add an RCD spur/socket and bonding even though you advised him otherwise.

C. Tell him you'll do the job for cash but there will be no cert and that he understands that you were never there.

Lets have some honest answers please people. And no looking down your nose at people who select differently to you!

 

[Octopus]

This is an example of why the update to the 17th edition was a complete missed opportunity. Additional sockets should be allowed without RCD protection and as for compulsory adding bonding don't go there.

I abide by the regs but a few around me don't.

 

[JamesBrownLive]

I don't think option 'B' is viable, as all you would be doing is putting your name to a document that essentially says you've broken the rules. Remember, the customer cannot absolve you of wrongdoing, as in the eyes of the law, they are not competent to do so. So really, its A or C.

Cheers

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Honestly?....probably C ......I would add that the install does not meet current standards,but that adding this socket will not in any way reduce the present safety of the installation. I would NOT undertake any more extensive work than the described...but bonding aside,prior to 2008 the install you describe would have complied anyway..(just 4 years ago!)

 

[ratboymark]

happens to me loads i always use the top option and once or twice the client has told me of a guy how will do it regardless of regs. and one time i got tricked the client said yeah that sounds ok if you sort the socket out first then we can be using it, then put your earth cable in but then told me to ****** when i came to put bonding in. i rang NICEIC they said issue a END and leave.

 

[Knobhead]

Oi! Starting arguments is my domain.

I would say cash in hand, but as I don’t do any domestic work now (didn’t do much before) so it’s irrelevant to me. I suppose my thinking would be if I do it, it will be safe, will it be safe if Joe from down the pub does it.
Plus there are some beer tokens to spend “down the pub”.
View attachment 10566

 

[Deleted member 9648]

I would add that the RCD 'fix' often advocated,such as using an RCD FCU for one extra point when there is no other RCD in the place,just to comply with the regs is the height stupidity as far as I'm concerned..I flatly refuse to go down that road.Either protect the whole lot or dont bother at all.

 

[ackbarthestar]

Given the staggering sums involved I tend to do 'A' , particularly where the customer seems so shocked that they are considering they are doing you a service.
No point in compromise and loosing sleep over the possibility that the customer will have you over a barrel when they come to sell the house which, of course, they didn't mention

 

[SPARTYKUS]

I would add that the RCD 'fix' often advocated,such as using an RCD FCU for one extra point when there is no other RCD in the place,just to comply with the regs is the height stupidity as far as I'm concerned..I flatly refuse to go down that road.Either protect the whole lot or dont bother at all.

Youd love to work with me then friday. Thats exactly what Im doing, rcd spur socket spurred (surface) from another

 

[Paul.M]

I'm going to go with option D:-

The cable is surface mounted (in trunking) and so is the skt. No rcd protection needed unless its in a special zone or being used for outdoor equipment. A mwc is needed but its not notifiable. Or have I misread the question???

 

[D Skelton]

Erm, I think you'll find that under the 17th all sockets must have RCD protection unless it is for a specific and dedicated pupose and labelled this way. Tell me if I'm wrong? Still gotta do the bonding anyway.

My decision: There is no option D

 

[pencilpusher]

A: Seeing as I like to sleep at night, I would walk away. There is no way the small profit made from this job is worth the grief IF it goes t*ts up!

:juggle2:

 

[Paul.M]

I'm sorry Mr Skelton I disagree. By your description of the extra socket rcd protection is not needed under the regs. (although you and me being professional we would like/insist on it) that's what the regs say.

Long as we follow reg 131.8 & 601.4 before we comence our work, its ok with the regs.

Option D is something you overlooked.

 

[D Skelton]

Regulation 411.3.3: In a.c. systems, additional protection by means of an RCD in accordance with regulation 415.1 shall be provided for socket-outlets with a rated current not exceeding 20A that are for use by ordinary persons and are intended for general use.

 

[D Skelton]

Regulation 411.3.3: In a.c. systems, additional protection by means of an RCD in accordance with regulation 415.1 shall be provided for socket-outlets with a rated current not exceeding 20A that are for use by ordinary persons and are intended for general use.

You're right, yes, but the bonding would still need to be done to comply with the regs. Anyway, we're starting to digress, all I was after was an A, B or C.

In reality, what would you guys do? regardless of whether it is to the regs or not?

 

[needasparks]

Could just screw a socket to the wall for £40 and don't wire it. Didn't say they wanted to use it might even put a cert on it for another cheeky fiver, lol

Think you have to just watch the eyes of the client, as soon as they glaze over when your explaining just back up to the door and save their time and yours.

 

[Paul.M]

I haven't even looked at the bonding question. Back in a bit.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

ask what the socket`s to be used for....label it as such......then if the client wants to remove the labeling at a later date......its their call innit...and yes......both earthing and bonding should be checked ....and upgraded if necessary...before any work is undertaken....

 

[Paul.M]

Ha yes the bonding question? If its not in place and the customer will not pay for it, let Dave down at the pub do the socket. Just explain to the customer:-

"of course your friend can change the brake pads on your car cheap but only qualified and experienced tradesmen can tell you if your brake lines are up for the job. In your case they are not up to the job so its up to you if you get me in or Dave? Your families safety, your choice, its up to you."

In a round about way that's A in my book.

Ok Mr Skelton what did you do? I guess you were professional and walked away.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

you can note it on the MWC as a departure under part 1 section 4 and label the outlet as "for indoor use only".....its surface run......

 

[brightspark2010]

TO PAUL.M UNDER WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES UNDER THAN FOR SPECIFIC ITEMS OF CURRENT USING EQUIPMENT, DO YOU NOT NEED TO PROTECT THE CIRCUIT VIA 30mA RCD THEN UNDER THE 17TH FOUND THAT INTERESTING

 

[trev]

A and I'd explain why it needs to be done and add that he will probably get diy dave in who will cost him less but will provide a job not in accordance with regs.
I've lost a lot of work to diy dave over the years and not lost a moments sleep over it, probably the same as most of us

 

[GLENNSPARK]

to paul.m under what circumstances under than for specific items of current using equipment, do you not need to protect the circuit via 30ma rcd then under the 17th found that interesting

411.5......411.3.3 (b)

 

[Deleted member 26818]

TO PAUL.M UNDER WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES UNDER THAN FOR SPECIFIC ITEMS OF CURRENT USING EQUIPMENT, DO YOU NOT NEED TO PROTECT THE CIRCUIT VIA 30mA RCD THEN UNDER THE 17TH FOUND THAT INTERESTING

There's no requirement to provide RCD protection to a circuit, unless it is of a special location.
There's a requirement to provide RCD protection to socket-outlets that are intended for general use, by ordinary persons.

 

[ackbarthestar]

Could just screw a socket to the wall for £40 and don't wire it. Didn't say they wanted to use it might even put a cert on it for another cheeky fiver, lol

Think you have to just watch the eyes of the client, as soon as they glaze over when your explaining just back up to the door and save their time and yours.

I love it....

Titled:
'A socket on the wall'

Explanation:
This socket is an artistic statement and not to be used for anything associated with electrical energy

 

[Paul.M]

TO PAUL.M UNDER WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES UNDER THAN FOR SPECIFIC ITEMS OF CURRENT USING EQUIPMENT, DO YOU NOT NEED TO PROTECT THE CIRCUIT VIA 30mA RCD THEN UNDER THE 17TH FOUND THAT INTERESTING

An extention of a circuit were the cable is surface mounted, deeper than 50mm or mechanical protected.

The new socket (in this case) does not have to be rcd protected under the regs (i don't make them, I just follow them). So yes, any cowboy can throw in an extra skt in trunking without rcd! Needs to have a MWC though. Doesn't it make you sick?

BY THE WAY, STOP SHOUTING AT ME. I HEARD YOU THE FIRST TIME!

 

[Richard Burns]

I would go with A not worth the potential later hassle, other people want it done right (according to the regs) why spend my time on doing it wrong?
If you have said what is required and they later decide Bob from the pub can do it that is their choice, not mine.

 

[ackbarthestar]

I like the idea of cowboys doing the services on a property that I'm about to purchase......
It gives me great bargaining powers:

P: Ah yes do you have certificates for all the services?

V: No but all the services have been done by reputable local trades-persons

P: Oh really ?

P: Do you have the names and addresses of these trades-persons ?

V: No, I'm afraid not

P: Ok, Lets start with a cash price of £50k below your asking price

V: That's too low for all this work that has been done

P: Well, no audit trail no asking price !

V: So, perhaps we can bargain?

P: Yes, lets bargain, now would you mind if my surveyor came round and made a survey?

V: No if that would help my asking price. I maybe able to offer you some PPI as a tempter

P: **** *** :bucktooth:..... I think i'll take a rain check on that one !

 

[Deleted member 26818]

If we're going to be proper cowboys, there should be an option D.
Use old colours, and a second hand socket, and tell the client, that if anyone asks, it was installed years ago.

 

[ackbarthestar]

Lol, I'm sure that's dishonest !

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I seem to remember it was the Injuns that were honest, not the Cowboys?

 

[ackbarthestar]

Wouldn't that be the other way round?

Then when exposed the would be truly a Redface

 

[jase]

Option A, you cant even think about wether the socket should have RCD protection or not cos the fact is if there is no bonding in place then according to the regs you must inform the customer that no work can take place on the installation until this has been rectified, so let cowboy dave do it and then if for some reason there is a fault on that socket and the customer is touching an extraneous conductive part whilst trying to faff about with it gets a huge belt cos no bonding in place then cowboy dave is responsible NOT YOU

 

[Heisenberg]

An extention of a circuit were the cable is surface mounted, deeper than 50mm or mechanical protected.

The new socket (in this case) does not have to be rcd protected under the regs (i don't make them, I just follow them).

I know I read on here somewhere quite a while ago, where a guy had failed his assessment because his NIC assessor stated that any socket additions to a non-rcd protected circuit meant the whole circuit had to be upgraded to being rcd protected :thinking:


However, I digress, and in answer to the original question, probably A. I'm a born worrier and I'd be forever thinking 'What if'.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

If we're going to be proper cowboys, there should be an option D.
Use old colours, and a second hand socket, and tell the client, that if anyone asks, it was installed years ago.

spinlondon, you've overlooked carbon dating :drunk:

 

[mogga]

spinlondon, you've overlooked carbon dating :drunk:

the customer designed the circuit in 1999 when he bought the house but has only just got round to getting the job done

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Fair point Mogga, regs are regs!

 

[richy3333]

Option A
And walk away knowing you can sleep soundly at night.One of the only things that separates us from the cowboys is integrity and doing a job right?

 

[Matty o]

I with option D

You are not providing a new circuit just add a point to an existing one.
The cable is surface mounted.
If the socket might be used to power equipment outdoors i would fit a RCD socket

 

[Ponty Massive]

I with option D

You are not providing a new circuit just add a point to an existing one.
The cable is surface mounted.
If the socket might be used to power equipment outdoors i would fit a RCD socket

But there's no bonding there !!

 

[Guest123]

A.

Haven't the time nor the inclination to argue the ---- with morons like that!

 

[brightspark2010]

I am lost it I was under the impression it does not mater what containment the cable is run in. It is a socket outlet deemed for general use and needs to be 30mA protected the fact its not in a metallic partition wall or less than 50mm deep is irrelevant isnt it????

 

[Paul.M]

I am lost it I was under the impression it does not mater what containment the cable is run in. It is a socket outlet deemed for general use and needs to be 30mA protected the fact its not in a metallic partition wall or less than 50mm deep is irrelevant isnt it????

No.......

 

[Guest111]

leave well alone,I may be wrong but I thought that the last person to work on an install is accountable if something goes wrong on the basis that you knew there were issues with install so shouldn,t have touched it in the first place.

 

[Paul.M]

But there's no bonding there !!

I must admit that I didn't see the part in the op about no bonding when I replied last night. Me answer would be A in that case.

With bonding me answer D stands to the regs and not the urban myths that the NIC have imposed on our brains that anything we touch needs to be on an rcd. Not correct going by the regs but on the other hand it would be safer, your call as the professional electrician.

 

[highspark]

Just been to another Consumer Unit job-quote. Told him bonding needs upgrading. "OH THE OTHER FELLA DIDN'T MENTION THAT" I was 20 quid more expensive with bonding to gas and water. Hes got another lad coming out tomorrow, hope hes worth his salt and mentions the bonding but is more expensive than me. If he doesn't theres another one to the cowboys!

 

[Matty o]

Sorry missed the bonding part
but my reply still stands i would try and persuade them to have it done but if they refuse i feel i have have done my part and happy that i am not leaving the house in any worse state than when i arrived.
i would note it on the MW that they would not have it done.

 

[richy3333]

Sorry missed the bonding part
but my reply still stands i would try and persuade them to have it done but if they refuse i feel i have have done my part and happy that i am not leaving the house in any worse state than when i arrived.
i would note it on the MW that they would not have it done.

Really?? And your view on Reg 132.16 is...

 

[Matty o]

Not got the book with me for the exact wording but by fitting the rcd socket is the bonding such a issue.

It is a hard one but in some ways i would rather to do it than say no and then they go and do it themselves after all its made no difference to their lack of safety if anything you have made it safer by them having a socket where they want instead of a lead across the floor.

Taking it further does this mean you would not change a broken socket front as the bonding is not up to latest standard.

 

[richy3333]

Not got the book with me for the exact wording but by fitting the rcd socket is the bonding such a issue.

It is a hard one but in some ways i would rather to do it than say no and then they go and do it themselves after all its made no difference to their lack of safety if anything you have made it safer by them having a socket where they want instead of a lead across the floor.

Taking it further does this mean you would not change a broken socket front as the bonding is not up to latest standard.

Blinding! Well I'm glad you aren't doing my electrical work mate and to be fair it is a Reg you should really know. Basically, no addition or alteration either temporary or permanent should be done to an existing installation unless the earthing and bonding arrangements are adequate (I've paraphrased).

If you're a Spark you work to the Regs, or better. What Mr and Mrs householder or DIY Dave does is up to them but you're supposed to be a professional?

Do you really believe what you're saying/writing?!