Consumer Unit Changes - What make & what price?

[Tonkatoy27]

"NO BONDING - NO STARTING WORK!"


I'd love to be so busy I could turn down work because the customer does not want me to install it! I've even had cases of customers not wanting it because it wouldn't look nice and regulaly have to paint the cable black to keep them happy. Don't get me wrong, I'm strongly advising it all the time but people just seem to be suspicious of my motives. They are happy to pay to get what they want but don't want to pay for essential safety precautions. I even tell them about the poor lady in Cornwall last year found dead in the bath by her daughter because the taps were live.
I had a strange installation for a friend last weekend, no internal stopcock, no idea where the incoming pipe entered the house. Plastic under the kitchen sink and in bathroom but metal pipes to the new washing machine and copper pipes feeding electric 'wet' heating system. Only one earth wire at conunit. (6mm) disapearing under kitchen floor (polished floorboards) and no sign of earth stake. (TT)
Got to presume 6mm goes to earth stake under kitchen floor due to Ze being reasonable but god knows about the water earthing. Can't lift kitchen floor to inspect without damage. Can't get an earth cable to visible copper pipes at rear of property without running cable surface front to back internally. Just had to recommend it but not heard anything yet about doing it and thats a friend!

 

[Tonkatoy27]

Hence why I ask how can you put in a CU as you are obliged to highlight it plus Schemies should not be telling their members to send a get out of jail letter reminding them it needs done after the fact

ELECSA didn't tell me to send a letter. I decided to draft one and send it because:
a. I'm worried that their electrical installation isn't bonded and as safe as it could be.
b. I would love the oppotunity to return, install bonding and make some money
c. I want to make it plain in the event of a shock or fire that I did everything possible to try and persude the customer to have it done short of doing the job for free.

Whats safer. An old wylex wooden board with rewirable fuses and no RCD with no bonding or a 17th board with MCB/RCD protection and no bonding?

 

[Welchyboy]

"NO BONDING - NO STARTING WORK!"


I'd love to be so busy I could turn down work because the customer does not want me to install it! I've even had cases of customers not wanting it because it wouldn't look nice and regulaly have to paint the cable black to keep them happy. Don't get me wrong, I'm strongly advising it all the time but people just seem to be suspicious of my motives. They are happy to pay to get what they want but don't want to pay for essential safety precautions. I even tell them about the poor lady in Cornwall last year found dead in the bath by her daughter because the taps were live.
I had a strange installation for a friend last weekend, no internal stopcock, no idea where the incoming pipe entered the house. Plastic under the kitchen sink and in bathroom but metal pipes to the new washing machine and copper pipes feeding electric 'wet' heating system. Only one earth wire at conunit. (6mm) disapearing under kitchen floor (polished floorboards) and no sign of earth stake. (TT)
Got to presume 6mm goes to earth stake under kitchen floor due to Ze being reasonable but god knows about the water earthing. Can't lift kitchen floor to inspect without damage. Can't get an earth cable to visible copper pipes at rear of property without running cable surface front to back internally. Just had to recommend it but not heard anything yet about doing it and thats a friend!

I really dont see this as such a problem , I just quote to do it with the board, I also give them the Niceic customer earthing and bonding sheet and explain why I'm doing it, yeah it's a pain Sometimes but I wouldn't carry on with the install without installing it, it's a direct contravention of the regs and your leaving yourself wide open issuing a cert and signing it too!!

Bad practice and unproffessional IMO! What's next no rcd protection as the customer wont pay for it and you can't afford to loose the work?!

Customers like that you don't want or need, if the worst happens they will be the first to take you to the cleaners!

 

[PC Electrics]

I'm with ELECSA and regulaly have customers where I've changed the consumer unit, tested and found no earth bonding to water or gas or both. Obviously then we inform the customer straight away but if they don't want to pay you the money to do it then you can't force them! I've had some sucess giving out Electrical Safety Council leaflets on earthing and bonding to try and make the customer understand but sometimes they just won't stump up to have it done. I know in a perfect world we would survey first and make them aware prior to the consumer unit but you run the risk of them thinking you are fishing for extra's. (I blame the cowboy builder programs)
No bonding gets noted on installation certificate and if we don't return to book it they get a follow up letter with said ESC leaflet. My ELECSA assessor seems fine with all this.
You can take a horse to water.........

Who's your assessor then? Mine's Russ Prestidge and I'm 99.9% certain he would pull you up sharp if you showed him that.
MPB is a basic safety requirement, not an optional extra.
Your new CU install must conform to the regulations including MPB.

No MPB is a C2 on an eicr! That means unsatisfactory. How can you do work that leaves an install in an unsatisfactory condition?

I suggest you check guide 6 here:
Best practice guides : Electrical Safety Council
especially the flow chart inside the back page.

 

[Ponty Massive]

You shouldn't change the CU unless the bonding is in place !!!

 

[Octopus]

I suggest you check guide 6 here:
Best practice guides : Electrical Safety Council
especially the flow chart inside the back page.

So you leave a BS3036 board in place rather than install a dual RCD board because there's no bonding?? Don't get me wrong but I'd argue that the dual RCD board is much safer than the 3036 board, and we're supposed to be making sites safer.

 

[Tonkatoy27]

I quite agree with all your views and know that in the best practice world, the one or two times a year this happens, I should throw my hands up in the air and walk away but do believe that only two things will happen from this, the customer will go to an unregistered sparky who will do the job for cash and not care whether or not anything is earthed, not just the water and gas and I'll have more problems paying the bills that month. I believe the client is better off having a full explanation on why it is needed and a new fuse board with the correct certificates showing any defects and recomendations than no paperwork at all. When I was talking specifically about this last year with ELECSA, they agreed. If this puts me in the firing line if something goes wrong then so be it but it will be the client at fault as I'll have their signature saying they wont carry it out to back me up. 'something' is much less likely to go wrong with a dual RCD board on an installation that's been tested than an old Wylex with no tets. I'm up for assesment next month and will bring it up again along with the two NICEIC sparkys in my area that I've caught changing consumer units because they need a spare way for a shower, only testing the new circuit and still not installing bonding. If the customer wanted a new shower circuit and didn't have bonding then yes, I'd walk. (I already know that ELECSA can't do anything about the dodgy NIC sparks, neither will the LABC, or even the NICEIC until the said sparky has been asked by the client to return and do it properly)

 

[Spazz]

I have had a similar situation to Tonkatoy cant find any everdance of bonding to water or gas so what I did was did a continuity between the earth pin of the socket (CPC) and the copper water pipe and gas pipe.
Disconnected the earth (isolated supply of course) and I had a nice reading of less than 1ohm - didn't see any reason to start running 10mm anywhere just to satisfy 17th regs.
What ever was there has been fine for 50+ years and is still giving a nice continuity now!

At the end of the day you cant apply 17th regs for old installs (not under 17th regs).

I could not understand where on earth these pipes where getting an earth from but they where. No 10 mm in CU (that I could see) but saying that there was a 10mm connected to the supply pipes.
Customer didn't want me running 10mm around the house either.
I even did an RCD test (1x test) on the water as the earth and the RCD kicked in no problems at all so again not a clue!

(Yes I did reconnect the main earth before anyone asks!)

 

[spark 68]

So you leave a BS3036 board in place rather than install a dual RCD board because there's no bonding?? Don't get me wrong but I'd argue that the dual RCD board is much safer than the 3036 board, and we're supposed to be making sites safer.

I hear what you are saying Murdoch, but the 3036 board has not got my name on it.

Iam with Nicholas here, No Bonding = No Work.
As Welchyboy pointed out you are leaving yourself wide open, and no letter is going to cover your arse, the customer is not a skilled person and therefore cannot make that choice (legally), you are the competent person onsite and the buck stops with you.

 

[Spazz]

So you leave a BS3036 board in place rather than install a dual RCD board because there's no bonding?? Don't get me wrong but I'd argue that the dual RCD board is much safer than the 3036 board, and we're supposed to be making sites safer.

I have before - dont get me wrong the RCD wont work if a fault occurred and the pipes came live!
At the end of the day you signed that cert saying it complys with 17th regs (unless you state otherwise) If you install the CU and no bonding in place and someone is killed then good luck to anyone who thinks they can persuade the wigs that you acted in the best interests and inline with 17th regs and ESAWR (Electrical Safety at Work Regs) and HASWA 1974, etc

Everyone knows my opinion about RCDs, but I have once before walked out of a rental property (BS3036) inplace no bonding and informed LA Public Protection - within 1 hour they where around there and 1 hour later the landlord called me back to do it correctly!

To be honest I would rather do it that way and watch my back (and the family in the house) than please a landlord who clearly does not care about the safety of their tenants!

 

[Octopus]

So you leave a BS3036 board in place rather than install a dual RCD board because there's no bonding?? Don't get me wrong but I'd argue that the dual RCD board is much safer than the 3036 board, and we're supposed to be making sites safer.

Not saying I've done it BUT what stops the weekend DIYer and the pub electrician - nothing!

 

[Welchyboy]

I can't believe Elecsa approves of this, it's utter cowboy practice registered or not!!

 

[Spazz]

One thing Public Protection told me

We have the same rights as Gas Safe Engineers

We cant disconnect a supply without permission (nor can they) - but we do (so do they)
The customer can turn it back on
The Gas Safe Engineer reports problems to LA Public Protection (SO SHOULD WE!)

The same law applies with rental properties - DUTY OF CARE - The landlord must supply a well maintained and safe electrical and gas supply!

Just because we are electricians , it does not mean we dont have a duty of care to the occupier of the property! - WE DO - SAME AS THE GAS SAFE ENGINEER

If your scared of bringing dangerous situations to the attention of someone who can reinforce the law and make them change it or lose the supply then you should rethink are you right to be an electrician with the responsibility of the public safety (WHICH WE ALL HAVE)

 

[spark 68]

Not saying I've done it BUT what stops the weekend DIYer and the pub electrician - nothing!

The difference here is that there is no paper trail leading straight back to me!, what others do is no concern of mine, I only care about what I have done, and I know I can sleep easily at night having done the right thing.

 

[PC Electrics]

Tonka,
you didn't answer my question. Who's your assessor?

 

[PC Electrics]

One thing Public Protection told me

We have the same rights as Gas Safe Engineers

We cant disconnect a supply without permission (nor can they) - but we do (so do they)
The customer can turn it back on
The Gas Safe Engineer reports problems to LA Public Protection (SO SHOULD WE!)

The same law applies with rental properties - DUTY OF CARE - The landlord must supply a well maintained and safe electrical and gas supply!

Just because we are electricians , it does not mean we dont have a duty of care to the occupier of the property! - WE DO - SAME AS THE GAS SAFE ENGINEER

If your scared of bringing dangerous situations to the attention of someone who can reinforce the law and make them change it or lose the supply then you should rethink are you right to be an electrician with the responsibility of the public safety (WHICH WE ALL HAVE)

Public Protection?

What or who are you refering to?

Perhaps it might be a good idea to start a new thread and illucidate some more?
Who are these people?

what are their responsibilities?
what powers do they have?
what sort of things should be reported to them?

 

[spark 68]

132.16 No addition or alteration, temporary or permanent, shall be made to an existing installation, unless it has been ascertained that the rating and the condition of any existing equipment, including that of the distributor, will be adequate for the altered circumstances. Furthermore, the earthing and bonding arrangements, if necessary for the protective measure applied for the safety of the addition or alteration, shall be adequate.

As I said, No Bonding = No work

 

[Spazz]

Public Protection Officers or Environmental Health Officers/Practitioners (ENOs/ENPs) are responsible for enforcing the law within their county!
They have the right to issue improvement notices which must followed. If the person who was issued with these the EHP will issue them with a court summons where the Crown Court will issue them with an order to improve the situation or face jail.

 

[Spazz]

132.16 No addition or alteration, temporary or permanent, shall be made to an existing installation, unless it has been ascertained that the rating and the condition of any existing equipment, including that of the distributor, will be adequate for the altered circumstances. Furthermore, the earthing and bonding arrangements, if necessary for the protective measure applied for the safety of the addition or alteration, shall be adequate.

As I said, No Bonding = No work

There you go - so clear and people still dont follow it!

Good luck to those who want to explain their action to the wigs!

 

[Tonkatoy27]

Paul Dudley I think his name is.