Consumer Unit Changes - What make & what price?

[Tonkatoy27]

132.16 No addition or alteration, temporary or permanent, shall be made to an existing installation, unless it has been ascertained that the rating and the condition of any existing equipment, including that of the distributor, will be adequate for the altered circumstances. Furthermore, the earthing and bonding arrangements, if necessary for the protective measure applied for the safety of the addition or alteration, shall be adequate.

As I said, No Bonding = No work

So you'd quote the same regulation to someone who asked you to change a pendant to a spot track and make them get bonding done first?

 

[spark 68]

So you'd quote the same regulation to someone who asked you to change a pendant to a spot track and make them get bonding done first?

It would also depend on other factors, I have refused this type of job before where there was no CPC on the lighting circuit (class I fitting).

If it was like for like eg. pendant for pendant (class II) and I wasn't signing anything then I would probably just do it and 'advise'.

But if it was say fitting a shower or CU change then yes I would say that the bonding needed attending to first, or if it was a TT or TNS and was present but only 6mm, then I would do the work and add a note on the cert.

Each situation is different, but not worth risking my livelihood or my liberty for should the poo hit the fan.

I have on occasion just fitted the bonding in with the job, if it is only say a Metre or so from the CU.

 

[PC Electrics]

I knew I was loosing work to unregistered cowboys

Now it seems I'm loosing out to registered cowboys as well.

And apparently with my schemes blessing!

No wonder I'm not getting many CU changes at the moment.

 

[PC Electrics]

So you'd quote the same regulation to someone who asked you to change a pendant to a spot track and make them get bonding done first?

No. That is changing accessories only. No alteration to the fixed wiring.

Would, however, advise the client accordingly.

 

[Spazz]

Everyone who installs CUs and does not check bonding do me a favor and post below with your membership number and registration body - by the way expect a visit off them in the next 72 hours as well!

I am fed up with cowboys risking people's lives - if you want to take a risk then go play on the M1 - DON'T PLAY WITH ELECTRICS!


And those who are not registered and pretending to know what they are doing go play in the center lane of the M1!

 

[PC Electrics]

Er! no thanks. I'm 1 mile off J20 and we've already had the motorway closed for almost a day 'cos some clown threatened to jump off a bridge. Bl00dy nightmare!

You can rest assured that I'll be getting in touch with my assessor on Tuesday.

I can hardly believe what I'm reading here. I am beginning to wonder if it's a wind up. trouble is JP might be reading and could well believe it.

 

[spark 68]

@ PC,

I honestly cannot see this being condoned by Elecsa, I would bet a pinch of sugar to a pinch of S**t, you would be pulled on this on an assessment.


When I did my first assessment (now on my third), I was told that this would stop you passing it, and that you would have had to send photo evidence that it had been corrected before they would accept you.

This is a fundamental thing that they check amongst other things, and they are fairly strict on this type of thing.

I would also like to bet that they would not stand by you if the worst happened.

 

[PC Electrics]

Just had my 6th assessment and agree 200%

 

[Spazz]

To be honest every member should be inspected at least 5 times a year - and I DONT mean planned inspections!

The scheme provider has the addresses of the customers that you have done work for - how hard is it to send a letter to them asking a few questions:
Are you satisfied with the Electrician
Did they explain the importance of bonding
Did they check water and gas sources
Etc
Etc
Would you accept a visit from one of our assessors to ensure that the Electrician did the job correctly

Im sure people wont object to this! For heaven sake it will get rid of these bloody licensed cowboys


PC - I used to work on the Ambulances on the M4 around Cardiff and I have seen how many clowns think its a good idea to cause problems for the poor driver driving under the bridge

Been there done that -
Someone jumped off the bridge near me - I was following a lorry but the prat landed on the soft top lorry - went though it and landed on the floor in the trailer

Lorry stopped - I opened back he was still breathing - long story short he died! in a lot of pain!

Still its the best place for these clowns (clown is the wrong word - clowns are funny - these prats are NOT!)

 

[Tonkatoy27]

I knew I was loosing work to unregistered cowboys

Now it seems I'm loosing out to registered cowboys as well.

And apparently with my schemes blessing!

No wonder I'm not getting many CU changes at the moment.

Hey, I'd rather not be called a cowboy after having a discussion fairly civilised discussion about a very rarely encountered condition which a lot of electricians have differing views about. I come across unearthed gas and water services every week, sometimes every day. My bonding speel bounces round my head when I'm asleep I say it to customers so much. But the fact remains that if you walked off every job that didn't have bonding you'd soon go out of business cos you'd go from job to job never starting one because you can't talk people into spending money if they don't want to. Every building I see no bonding has an R2 test to the gas and water pipes in order to carry out a risk assesment that the customer gets a copy of and signs. (Mostly under 1ohm as stated by another member) All CU changes are priced with bonding as an extra if required. I did walk away from a cu change last week with a customer stating that his 13th edition lighting with metal fittings everywhere 'had been ok for the last 40 years so I don't think it need upgrading' I seem to be the only sparky in my area that actually cares that I comply with Part P requirements as useless as they might be.

 

[Spazz]

You say you would be out of a job if you turned down every job where they didn't want bonding!

I will tell you now you will be out of a job before long if you carry on! You will also be without a family and a home - you will be in a box 10ft by 6ft (NO NOT A COFFIN - A CELL!) because you killed someone and you wont have any defense!

We all make mistakes - mistakes cost lives!

 

[richy3333]

The discussion about bonding has materialised because people appear to be pricing this as an extra/speratlety. When I get asked to do a CU change, I survey and then price for the job, i.e. what needs doing, including bonding if required. I don't really see what the problem is. You just list out in your estimate the proposed work and price?

The Regs and ESC guidelines are clear in that if you are doing a CU change the bonding should be there or put in place at the time of the CU change. Most of the time it isn't expensive to do and on these odd occasions that you have to run the cable from one side of the house to the other you can work through a solution with the customer?

Customers that do not allow you to 'do' the bonding shouldn't be customers. Let someone else do the job and sleep easy at night.

I'm up in Scotland and charge from approx £350+ (plus VAT) for a CU change. Price depends upon board size, and mainly fit RCBO boards

 

[Spazz]

Its easy to do it your way ricky but when your in the middle of nowhere and the customer calls you up asking how much for a cu change with the impression its just changing the fuse box -
Question - How many boxes have you got?
Question - What type of fuse box do you have? - usually BS3036
Question - how many switches are in the box (on each)?

That tells you a rough price - I explain that I need to see the house before as there is somethings I need to check before I can give a more exact price. but £250 if all bonding in place and no problems occour
They usually book it in there and then

I carry 50m of 10mm and 25m of 25mm bonding on me all the time.

Quick servery of the house, bonding, earthing system, etc, etc, etc

Give a more exact price then if they happy I start there and then.

Yes if they not happy with the price (usually an extra £50 at most!) - I explain the dangers and if they still not having it I issue a EDN on the spot and send a copy to the EHP if its a rental property (see above)

The sight of that Red Notice usually pushes the towards the yes and makes them realise that your not trying to pull a fast one!


If they still not happy then they call around - get quotes and I tell them that it will be an extra 20% due to the extra travel - they always call back and get me back up there.

 

[Spazz]

What I have done before on a house where the owner could not afford the extra £150 (because no bonding to other side of house and upgraded the Main Protective Earthing cable was tell them if they help - reduces my hours I spend on the job - reduces the cost of the job.

Could be as easy as running the 10mm across the house, unscrewing floorboards, drilling a hole, handing me tools (saves alot of time), resting the RCD, writing the results onto the cert, etc - this can knock off upto £50 in most cases). This job in question knocked off £75 as I finished in 5 hours because the owner really pulled his finger out and helped with everything. I think him helping me saved about 2-3 hours in total.

Of course you have to take into account what the insurance will cover them to do (which mine does) and what they are capable of doing.

Most insurance covers Employers Liability for people helping (paid and unpaid) Im with NAPIT and mine does (limited to them knowing what they are doing - or instructed to do) NEVER any wiring up! and everything is checked over!

 

[oldtimer]

I have had a similar situation to Tonkatoy cant find any everdance of bonding to water or gas so what I did was did a continuity between the earth pin of the socket (CPC) and the copper water pipe and gas pipe.
Disconnected the earth (isolated supply of course) and I had a nice reading of less than 1ohm - didn't see any reason to start running 10mm anywhere just to satisfy 17th regs.
What ever was there has been fine for 50+ years and is still giving a nice continuity now!

At the end of the day you cant apply 17th regs for old installs (not under 17th regs).

I could not understand where on earth these pipes where getting an earth from but they where. No 10 mm in CU (that I could see) but saying that there was a 10mm connected to the supply pipes.
Customer didn't want me running 10mm around the house either.
I even did an RCD test (1x test) on the water as the earth and the RCD kicked in no problems at all so again not a clue!

(Yes I did reconnect the main earth before anyone asks!)

This sounds great but for one thing you have heard of a borrowed neutral but it is the same thing to get a borrowed earth let me explain I was asked to fit a new CU in an upstairs flat big 4 bed job victorian built type of thing check the Ze and got 0.96 you will have to contact your DNO i said for a better earth so he did and I came along and did the CU plus run 10mm to gas water when I realised that the gas and water metalic pipes were coming from downstairs so because they were bonded before with 6mm so the guy downstairs is now "borrowing" an earth from my customer. This is getting more common like a semi with a bad earth they get it fixed but end up exporting their earth to the guy next door via the metal gas/water pipe then if you have noticed Transco is moving gas meters outside and running plastic pipes but before they leave they pop a card through your door to tell you to get the pipe at the meter earthed. I think they should do a Ze before and after the job so watch out for this I always check for a good earth before a CU change

 

[Spazz]

This is what I have in my flat - all earths connected to the main earth terminal in the electric cupboard and thats where the water and gas are bonded for all flats. Not a big problem because all the flats in the block are connected to this one earth terminal.

The house in question was a detached house (stand alone) with nothing around it - domestic but could be classed as a farm house but on TNC-S. The house was occupied by the farmers daughter and her partner.

Still dont know where the earth was coming from but it was connected to the earth terminal some how - my only worry is if it was connected to a socket earth or something. Im going back there in the next few days - he called me today - hes building an extension so he wants me to wire it up.

I will prob just run a 10mm to the pipes just incase. Gas was tank Gas by the way - should of said!

 

[Welchyboy]

The discussion about bonding has materialised because people appear to be pricing this as an extra/speratlety. When I get asked to do a CU change, I survey and then price for the job, i.e. what needs doing, including bonding if required. I don't really see what the problem is. You just list out in your estimate the proposed work and price?

The Regs and ESC guidelines are clear in that if you are doing a CU change the bonding should be there or put in place at the time of the CU change. Most of the time it isn't expensive to do and on these odd occasions that you have to run the cable from one side of the house to the other you can work through a solution with the customer?

Customers that do not allow you to 'do' the bonding shouldn't be customers. Let someone else do the job and sleep easy at night.

I'm up in Scotland and charge from approx £350+ (plus VAT) for a CU change. Price depends upon board size, and mainly fit RCBO boards

^^This is exactly the right approach, why are people faffing about with £250 for a cu , £100 for some bonding ,getting the customer to help unscrew floorboards to save £20, so your then doing the work for bare minimum, this is crazy and just makes things too complicated, your suppsed to be running a business, not helping your mate out round his house!!

Go to the job, do a survey, give a quote (with a bonding guide if needed), either they accept it or not

I think a customer helping you would be nothing but a hindrance , and makes you look unprofessional

Is work really that scarce out there for some to be scraping the bottom of the barrell for types of customers such as these?

 

[Spazz]

Welshyboy - I have been working as a spark since January - but working with electrics for last 6 years on a regular basis - signing off with LABC as my grandfather was that tight he would not pay NICEIC - would of saved alot mind!


I only go down the route of the customer helping if I think they can manage it!

Some customers want to help and anything easy like running a cable can save you alot of work and keeps them busy and out of the way!

Yes some are a pain in the **** and I want them out of the house not helping me - the odd few are more than capable of helping - use the skills dont waste them!

 

[richy3333]

Its easy to do it your way ricky but when your in the middle of nowhere and the customer calls you up asking how much for a cu change with the impression its just changing the fuse box -
Question - How many boxes have you got?
Question - What type of fuse box do you have? - usually BS3036
Question - how many switches are in the box (on each)?

That tells you a rough price - I explain that I need to see the house before as there is somethings I need to check before I can give a more exact price. but £250 if all bonding in place and no problems occour
They usually book it in there and then

I carry 50m of 10mm and 25m of 25mm bonding on me all the time.

Quick servery of the house, bonding, earthing system, etc, etc, etc

Give a more exact price then if they happy I start there and then.

Yes if they not happy with the price (usually an extra £50 at most!) - I explain the dangers and if they still not having it I issue a EDN on the spot and send a copy to the EHP if its a rental property (see above)

The sight of that Red Notice usually pushes the towards the yes and makes them realise that your not trying to pull a fast one!


If they still not happy then they call around - get quotes and I tell them that it will be an extra 20% due to the extra travel - they always call back and get me back up there.

Sorry mate but I cant agree.

In the game of 'top trumps' I live and work in a far more remote/ rural location than you (and most sparks on the forum). My nearest 'corner shop/Post Office' is 8 miles away. Nearest large supermarket, 2 hour drive, nearest electrical wholesaler 2 hour drive etc etc. Heck, I had to walk 6.5 miles out of a glen at 11.30PM in a blizzard last year when my truck nose dived off the road and I rolled it 3 times! I've been to Pembrokeshire and there isn't anywhere that rural is there mate?

If I get a call on my mobile (thats when I have a reception) if I have the time I would go around and survey the installation the same day, pre test etc, but a CU change should be planned, not stuck in there and then with whatever is on the van. The customer gets an written estimate, a copy of my business terms and copies of the ESC guidelines etc. All that notwithstanding I don't carry spare CU's in the van as you can't cover all eventualities, but that does remind me of an installation I saw that had a 20 way CU fitted and only 5 ways in use. The owner asked why they had such a large unused CU in their house and I pointed out it probably was all the sparky had on the van and couldn't be bothered to get the right sized box for them!

So if I can get it right with all my logistical hurdles to over come, then anyone can?

No bonding, no shiny new CU. End of. I'm proud of my good reputation that's why people come to me to do electrical work rather than the cowboys.

If one can't adequately communicate with the customer why they should use you as a registered spark, the only person thats hurting is the sparks own business. And even if they do use the cowboy at least you then get to sort out the mess when they foul up. One of my most used flippant comments when a customer asks how they can reduce the price is that I tell them to get an unregistered cowboy in to do the work and they'll not get a certificate for the work, nor any guarantee etc. They get the message and I get the work.

 

[Spazz]

where the hell do you live ricky?

Also in Pembrokeshire there are places which requires 1hr drive to supermarkets, etc.

I do a lot of work in places 1 n half hours away in North Pembrokeshire - when you say you been to Pembrokeshire do u mean Tenby?