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Discuss Gender Neutral Confusion.............. in the Electricians Chat - Off Topic Chat area at ElectrciansForums.co.uk.

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  1. Marvo
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    Marvo Gender Confused Staff Member

    Location:
    South Africa
    Okay, this may not be the right forum to ask this question but I figured you guys in the UK are on the cutting edge of political correctness so I'll give it a go.

    I had a job applicant send me a resume/CV and on it he states he's 'gender neutral'. I'll be the first to admit I'm not up to speed with all the new terminology and the first thing that sprung to mind was it was a guy who'd had his male parts removed or maybe a girl who had changed sex or something similar. After asking my office staff who were more clueless than I was I approached our third party HR advisors and they also couldn't give me any answers apart from it's not legally recognised here. I ended up googling it and to be completely honest I'm still as confused as I was to begin with.

    If a guy says he's gender neutral (he looks very much like a guy from his photo) is he saying he doesn't want to be considered as a male by others purely from a social stance or is there a physical element to this like he's taking hormones or having/had surgery or is it something else entirely?
     
  2. Strima
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    Strima Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    St Neots
    Just call him/her it, saves a lot of hassle.

    All this gender stuff is getting beyond a joke.
     
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  3. Marvo
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    Marvo Gender Confused Staff Member

    Location:
    South Africa
    It's the first time I've ever encountered it. I belong to a local small business network with a few hundred other local small business and none of them have encountered it either. I guess in Africa we're a couple of decades behind the curve.
     
  4. Des 56
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    Des 56 Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Gliese 581C
    There are so many descriptive sexual types these days,it seems I've lost track myself
    You could always ask him at interview

    If I may say,are you looking to employ him or spending some time in his bed ? :)

    I can't see it matters one way or the other what his gender neutral affliction/condition/description is and why it should impact on assessing a job applicant
     
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  5. mickfred
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    mickfred Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Liverpool
    Gender neutral means in most cases ,that I can stay as I am but also gain a sort of victim status . I don't understand trans people (why would I ,am not in that headspace) but I do respect anyone who feels that strongly that they get ops and risk their families and friends. So yes call a trans women she , but all this other nonsense just seems like look at me am important.
     
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  6. Marvo
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    Marvo Gender Confused Staff Member

    Location:
    South Africa
    Yeah....nah..he's not my type :eek:

    I do have some concerns but I'm not going to get into them until I at least fully understand what gender neutral actually is.
     
  7. sparkdog
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    sparkdog sparkdog Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Sunny Sussex
    Business Name:
    C MacRae Electrical
    Perhaps he is TNCS.
     
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  8. mickfred
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    mickfred Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Liverpool
    It put you in a bad spot because this person is gender neutral now , next week demi boy ,week after gender fuild . You will be expected to address him her see zir do and anything else that this person feels or your picking on them . My feeling is this stuff my be expected of their families , partners and friends but not everyone else . Is this person going to be ****ed off every time a customer offers a them a cuppa with the wrong pronoun and does your paying customers want to hear his life story . The truth is you do you but your not that important no one cares
     
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  9. Leader
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    Leader Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Bucks
    Well it means neither male nor female surely. I'm open minded and don't have a problem with whatever people want to identify as so long as they don't have a chip on their shoulder about it. You shouldn't assume that this person will be a nob.
     
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  10. mickfred
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    mickfred Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Liverpool
    You can identify as what every you want but to put it in a CV suggest there is some reason it's important to you .As I have said calling a trans women him is just being a div but my niece is in uni and it's all the rage everyone got some new identity and are force full about it . Everyone of her friends is bisexual but only seem to have boyfriends , which suggests at least some of them wear it as a cool look . Some people have some really hard stuff to sort out and this identity fashion make it more likely that they will not be taken seriously . Rant over
     
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  11. rolyberkin
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    rolyberkin Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Chelmsford
    It means he doesn't think it is relevant to the job application, it may be if you file it under B1N.
     
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  12. ferg
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    ferg Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    N.W.Scotland
  13. mickfred
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    mickfred Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Liverpool
    HE show some respect
     
  14. stevethesparks
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    stevethesparks Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northampton
    Not AC/DC?
     
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  15. davesparks
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    davesparks Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    guildford
    Firstly this should have no bearing on their suitability for the job, judge their application and CV exactly the same as all of the others, and if they are worth an interview then invite them to do so.

    Interview them exactly as you would anyone else. Then after the interview explain to them that you don't fully understand what gender neutrality is but that you didn't mention it until after the interview because it has no bearing on their suitability for the job.

    If they are genuine then they will appreciate this, if they are abusing the situation to attempt to guilt you into giving them the job or wanting to make political statements etc then they won't appreciate it and will try to cause a fuss. But because you did treat them exactly the same as everyone else's they won't have a leg to stand on if they attempt to make something of it.

    I'm not an expert on the subject, but I do know a little bit about it and I have a few friends who know more than I do.

    I could write many pages on the subject but I'll restrain myself for now.
     
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  16. Marvo
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    Marvo Gender Confused Staff Member

    Location:
    South Africa
    In this neck of the woods Dave you wouldn't guilt anyone into anything or be making any kind of political statement by declaring gender neutral, like I say nobody I've spoken to has any idea even what it is.

    It probably shouldn't have any bearing on their suitability for the job but why would they go out of their way to state it when it wasn't an option on the form we sent them?

    I know it would be a paperwork issue, we have to declare on official forms the number of male, female, black, white, coloured and disabled emplyees for purposes of complying with the employment equity act and there's no accomodation for any genders other than male and female. Kinda ironic really when the employment equity act was passed with the purpose of 'guaranteeing non-discrimination on the basis of race, gender, age, political opinion and religious beliefs'
     
  17. westward10
    Online

    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    This persons gender is one or the other not sitting on a fence. If they have pointed this out with no prompting I sense trouble ahead.
     
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  18. Wilko
    Online

    Wilko Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Berkshire
    Business Name:
    Wilko Electrics
    You haven't asked about their gender assignment, but it has been put on the table and they are probably very nervous about things. That said, I'd get professional recruitment advice to ensure the process is in accord with your local anti discrimination laws.
     
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  19. littlespark
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    littlespark Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Scottish Borders
    It's a crazy fad that he (I assume he's a he to look at?) will regret in a few years time. Like when everyone tried to write 'Jedi' in the religion section of some official forms to make it an actual religion.
    Wait... "Gender neutral" ? - In an electrical forum? Is someone taking the P?
     
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  20. Pete999
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    Pete999 Trusted Advisor

    Top Poster Of Month

    Location:
    Northampton
    Gender neutrality - Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality
    This any help Marvo?
     
  21. Marvo
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    Marvo Gender Confused Staff Member

    Location:
    South Africa
    Nope, didn't help Pete. There's too many other terms I'm not familiar with and I didn't get clear answers to the basic questions in the opening post.
     
  22. Pete999
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    Pete999 Trusted Advisor

    Top Poster Of Month

    Location:
    Northampton
    Difficult one Mate, it would be a mine field of hurt if the applicant was denied the job because of a Gender issue, if as you say he does look feminine then i could an issue for both of you. Best offer I have, would be to see him again, with a witness and ask him what he means by his Gender Neutrality statement, could ask one of your 3rd party HR colleagues to be the witness, I know when I was interviewing people, we had a case of one chap who had actually taken the plunge and had surgery, it was explain to him of the possible pitfalls of traveling countries, not as enlightened as this one, good luck mate, sorry I could not be of any more help.
     
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  23. SWD
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    SWD Gender neutral Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    London
    For a start he'll have mental health issues so be wary that if you did employ them as a company how much support you would have to give then i.e. time off and financially, if you are a small company it could hurt you financially. Brutal but true.
     
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  24. westward10
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    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    Why would you need a witness that is immediately classing them as being "different" when in fact they are no different to you or I. Most of these individuals want to be treated like anyone else and why not because they are but by highlighting this indicates to me further issues along the line. By all means interview them and try not to confuse style over intent.
     
  25. Pete999
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    Pete999 Trusted Advisor

    Top Poster Of Month

    Location:
    Northampton
    Why would you need a witness? because if the person with the issues says or infers that something has been said said that causes offence it could be misconstrued as sexist or any other such ist you can imagine.

    Just the interviewee and the interviewer together it would or could be their word against yours, believe me I have been there, with two people on the interviewers side you are at least protected against any accusations, by all means ask the interviewee if he or she has any objections if a colleague sits in on the interview, I believe it's called covering your backside.
     
  26. Cadgey123
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    Cadgey123 Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    London
    Look at the animosity this thread is causing?

    The guy/chick hasn't even been seen or heard yet in real life. Give the applicant a chance for f*** sake.
    If you don't like them sack them off after and say, " Thanks for coming"

    We are intolerable people in society and if it doesn't fit in with our 'normal' lives, we start to panic!!
     
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  27. Midwest
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    Midwest Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Oxfordshire
    Marvo I think the advice given by davesparks is most sensible. To do anything else would not be. Your applicant may have had other job interviews, having not mentioned the gender neutral aspect has created an unnecessary complication, this person is at least being honest. As Pete advised as well. Last few interviews I had, always had three members, consisting of company representatives and HR manager.

    I understand the points and views the others have made regarding employment on a small company, but as you've said yourself, make any discrimination of anyone would set you up for a fall.
     
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  28. Pete999
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    Pete999 Trusted Advisor

    Top Poster Of Month

    Location:
    Northampton
    Don't think there is any animosity in this thread, questions have been asked some have been answered, employers have to be careful and mindful of peoples differences, your method of dealing with the issue, "sack them off" well I had better not say what I think.
     
  29. Richard Burns
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    Richard Burns Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Cambridgeshire
    Business Name:
    Richard Burns
    From a general perspective I think that unless you are experiencing these approaches it can be difficult to understand at least for an older generation.

    From a practical perspective you need to consider if this person has the qualifications and or experience that you are looking for, if not, then the question becomes moot.
    If you are considering interviewing them then you just take their approach into consideration in how you frame questions so as not to apply a gender bias.
    I generally feel that he and him are general terms that also happen to mean male but this is not generally accepted by anyone with a specific gender identification.
    I would consider using a name or speaking in the third person for an interview, "you" is gender neutral.
    From a statistical perspective a count of male and female people would be on a biological basis not a mental basis.

    As a gender neutral person they are simply saying they are not male and they are not female, and generally not happy with being identified as either.
    Probably from a practical point of view they are merely normal people with a different mind set.

    Good luck.
     
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  30. SWD
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    SWD Gender neutral Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    London
    The OP is in South Africa, certain things need another 20 years to catch up with the "enlightened" UK
     
  31. SWD
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    SWD Gender neutral Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    London
    Can you get away with paying them less then?
     
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  32. Leader
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    Leader Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Bucks
    You shouldn't be asking about it at interview, the information is for statistical purposes only and should have no bearing on whether you hire this person. You shouldn't need to alter your language because when are you ever going g to use him/her/she etc when directly addressing a person? If I saw this on an application I think I'd file it in my brain as "interesting" and just get on with it. If they are the best applicant then perhaps you can sensitively ask them how they would like to be addressed. Regarding customer you will have to let them know that customers' actions are beyond your control and they will have to take on the responsibility of introducing themselves to customers and let them know if they would like to be addressed in a certain way. More than likely though this is a mountain out of a mole hill and they be be perfectly normal
     
  33. davesparks
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    davesparks Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    guildford
    Is it? Why should it be binary? Nature doesn't conform to the labels that humans have given it in our attempts to quantify, explain and control it.
    Nature is analogue, not digital. Living things rely on mutations and variations to survive, and it is the whole point of the theory of evolution.

    Science has identified the chromosome responsible for gender, so we have XX for male and XY for female, but if you actually look at samples every persons gender chromosomes are different. They rarely form the perfect precise shapes we assume and this is reflected in the people they come from.
     
  34. davesparks
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    davesparks Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    guildford
    Is it? Why should it be binary? Nature doesn't conform to the labels that humans have given it in our attempts to quantify, explain and control it.
    Nature is analogue, not digital. Living things rely on mutations and variations to survive, and it is the whole point of the theory of evolution.

    Science has identified the chromosome responsible for gender, so we have XX for male and XY for female, but if you actually look at samples every persons gender chromosomes are different. They rarely form the perfect precise shapes we assume and this is reflected in the people they come from.
     
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  35. davesparks
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    davesparks Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    guildford
    Rubbish, you cannot diagnose a mental health condition on the basis of being gender neutral.
    And even if they do have mental health issue it doesn't automatically mean that they will need extra support from their employer.
     
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  36. UKMeterman
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    UKMeterman Electrician's Arms

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  37. mickfred
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    mickfred Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Liverpool
    The attempted suicide rate for trans people is 41percent , it cannot be just nasty names .
     
  38. UKMeterman
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    UKMeterman Electrician's Arms

    Sustained "nasty names" can be very delibiateing, and often the abuse is far worse than just "nasty names". I would suggest reflecting on the content of this discussion.
     
  39. Pete999
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    Pete999 Trusted Advisor

    Top Poster Of Month

    Location:
    Northampton
    This is, by far the beast and easiest description of what a Gender Neutral person is, I hope it helps.
     
  40. Rpa07
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    Rpa07 2000 posts - only 46379 behind Telectrix! Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Bristol
    Business Name:
    Ebenezer electrical
    It's called character and we all have one and that's what makes us get along or not.
    This 'mindi' in the video is just describing being a human being and not a robot.
    So many of school age and university age are being brainwashed into these ideas pandering to the agenda for those that want to make trouble for society and government. This brainwashing is causing tendencies such as suicide. Kids don't know who they are now because they are being told what they should be at such a young vulnerable age. And keep toilets separate for heavens sake!
    You are male or female that's what your DNA says in every, every cell of your body.
    Everybody wants an identity but they want one that makes them stand out and this also makes them very intolerant of anyone who disagrees.
    I don't go on marches and placard my way around town, why should they?
    I don't know where this is all headed and quite frankly I'm not interested in them. They are the naughty kids in school that had the most attention whilst the ones that wanted to get on suffered.
    Sit down, shut up and work to make this country a greater place to live in or go somewhere else.
    Have a good weekend everyone.
     
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  41. SWD
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    SWD Gender neutral Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    London
    Can you post up what the support is for people employed in South Africa as this has nothing to do with UK Legislation.
     
  42. UKMeterman
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    UKMeterman Electrician's Arms

    I am sorry, this is a UK forum and most of the members are in the UK. I am sure that Marvo and others from non UK understand this and will accomodate my indiscression.
     
  43. SWD
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    SWD Gender neutral Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    London
    My parents are Polish I was born in the UK and I now identify myself as a Jamaican Rastafarian, weed is my religion......
     
  44. telectrix
    Online

    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    cheshire/staffordshire
    Business Name:
    Telectrix
    after readingmost of the posts on this thread, i'm confused. i think i.m getting to become "forum neutral"
     
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  45. haptism
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    haptism Regular EF Member

    Location:
    SW. London
    Maybe her nipples dont go hard when rubbed with icecubes lol
     
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