Niceic

[Ponty Massive]

Well, after starting this thread one month ago and after being so annoyed with the NICEIC, I got in touch with ELECSA. Yesterday was the assessment with elecsa and I must say, it is a pleasure to now be a member with them. They really have got it spot on with their customer service and focus. The assessment was stress free, re-assuring and educational. Anyone looking to join a part P scheme, I would highly recommend.

Ponty

 

[Guest123]

Wll done Ponty.......one in the eye for the mafia!!!

 

[brucelee]

cograts ponty well done!

 

[rocker]

Good work, squire!

 

[ionutmimi]

hi
can anyone tell me if when the nic assessor came out to assess the job for nic registration,actually asked if the job been LABC notified and approved?
i noticed there is a big confusion about this.my training centre told me not to notify LABC as there is no need for this if i am using the job for the assessment.Nic says different...
thanx

 

[malcolmsanford]

If you follow posts in here you will note that a lot of the guys, including me all feel that the NICEIC do things their way and interpret things their way.

Other schemes like ELECSA and NAPIT will advise you to contact the LABC in your area, explain what your doing and the majority of those LABC are very good and will allow you carry out the work and when you are assessed sign it off. The NICEIC on the other hand insist that you actually go down the road of a building warrent.

Have you spoke to the NICEIC about this and have they insisted on you getting a warrent?

 

[andyb]

If you follow posts in here you will note that a lot of the guys, including me all feel that the NICEIC do things their way and interpret things their way.

In this case it's the other scheme providers that are interpreting things their way and the niceic are doing it by the book.

Going back to the original post, what do you suppose would happen if something went wrong between finishing the job & your inspection & notification?

Say someone was hurt & it became legal, do you think that in a court of law you would get away with saying ''The nice lady at Elecsa said it would be alright'' and do you think that the nice lady would come to court to back up your story.

Like it or not the person at the Niceic was right, if you want to use your work for your inspection and then notify it just do it and don't tell anybody. That's what I would do.

 

[malcolmsanford]

I see you quote a small section of my OP and that you have commented completely out of context of what I wrote, which I feel is a little unfair, I actually wrote

"Other schemes like ELECSA and NAPIT will advise you to contact the LABC in your area, explain what your doing and the majority of those LABC are very good and will allow you carry out the work and when you are assessed sign it off."

So there are 2 distinct parties involved in this procedure the scheme providers and the LABC themselves. I was part of NICEIC in the 90's and was with them for over 10yrs and in that time they were excellent. But I feel, as many do, that they have lost their way from being a body to ensure standards to treating the electrical contractor as a cash cow.

I feel that the other schemes are trying to help the small lone trader by advising this method. After all if the LABC think it is not safe they can simply say no and you have to apply for a building warrent. The NICEIC IMO are just being perdantic and saying do it our way or not at all.

 

[andyb]

Malcolm, I was only trying to point out that the Nic were giving advice out over the phone strictly by the book. And I don't blame them.

For what it's worth, in my opinion when Ponty Massive told the local building control of his plans, you could take that as having notified them. I don't think that the part p document goes into to much detail on how notification is carried out.

But getting back to my point, the lady on the other end of the phone is not qualified to make judgment on whether the person they are speaking to has complied with part p or not. And if the other scheme providers allow their phone operators to do that, then that's their lookout.

 

[ionutmimi]

going back to my initial question,if anyone knows,does the NIC assessor actualy asks if the job that he is assessing me on,have been notified and tested by the LABC`s contractors(my LABC told me over the phone that i need to pay 2 hundred something and they will come to inspect during first fixing and then they will be back for testing)
Again my only concern is if the assessor wants to know of and see details of the LABC`s testing.
Thanx guys

 

[gpz900jim]

I joined the niceic part p 2 moths ago, I didnt notify my work to the labc, 1 job at my own house and 1 at my brothers, No one asked anything about that side of it, not even the assessor that came, just tell them its been notified, they probably wont even check.

 

[ionutmimi]

thanx gpz900jim

 

[ionutmimi]

Gpz900jim can u give us some details of your NIC assessment,what kind of questions did he ask
Thax

 

[gpz900jim]

he asked me to do a ze reading, rcd test, an r1/r2 reading for the shower that i had fitted. and to talk through the work that i had done and the tests i had done. I fitted a shower, changed the consumer unit, and extended a ring main in my utility to include the garage. He said that the nic prefer people to obtain their earth loop impedance measurements by calculation rather than live measurement. They are very keen on correct earthing and bonding. My advice is to read and re read the onsite guide from front to back. He saw how worn out my OSG was and I think that impressed him!!. I must say that he was a very friendly bloke, and very knowledgeable.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Did he say why he prefered you to take the EFLI by calculation rather then by test ?

 

[gpz900jim]

yes, its safer as there is less live testing

 

[malcolmsanford]

AS said earlier the NICEIC interpet things as they want. So why do a Ze test, call the DNO and get their calcualtions on it or just work to the OSG for it.

There is nothing wrong with live testing, it's not live working which is completely different.

 

[andyb]

I think gpz900jim must be talking about Zs.
I joined the Nic in 2005 purely because I needed to for part p & in the 6 inspections that I've had every Ze has been measured.

 

[gpz900jim]

no, what i meant was that ze has to be measured. (live obviously) and he told me to take r1/r2 readings and add them to ze to get zs . doing it that way you spend less time doing live tests. But you are right, ze has to be measured directly. my tester will take a zs reading and calculate the ze from that, but he said that method was not acceptable

 

[IQ Electrical]

going back to my initial question,if anyone knows,does the NIC assessor actualy asks if the job that he is assessing me on,have been notified and tested by the LABC`s contractors(my LABC told me over the phone that i need to pay 2 hundred something and they will come to inspect during first fixing and then they will be back for testing)
Again my only concern is if the assessor wants to know of and see details of the LABC`s testing.
Thanx guys

I asked our NICEIC assessor this question on our annual assessment a few weeks back and he said that if you ring NICEIC and ask them then the official line is "you must notify".
He said the assessors on the other hand, are only interested in your technical abilities.

 

[rocker]

What a load of rubbish, as has been said the usual NIC making up their own rules.

The best and most thorough way is do a live Zs test, then also 'calculate' it (calculate? for God's sake it's adding one number to another, hardly programming a computer) and make sure they are more or less the same. They will never be the same. We aren't taking into account the tiny resistance in the board itself and most testers aren't that accurate.

'So why do it?'

Well, you've done your R1R2 right after hooking everything up, as well as other testing. You've since connected all your CPCs up to the earth bar, and you've done them all nice and tight. Then, you've put the cover on the CU, probably having to mess about with it a bit to get it to fit, and livened everything up.

So now we have a Shroedinger's cat scenaerio - how do you know the CPCs didn't snap or get pulled out when you fumbled putting the CPC cover on? I'll tell you how, you do a Zs test. It's the only test you do when everything is in place as it will be for the next 10 years which proves you have a reliable earth that is giving us the sort of low resistance you need.

Ask your NIC assessor about this next year....

 

[malcolmsanford]

Exactly rocker. I will always do my Zs test live with everything connected, that includes all those parallel paths as when a fault devlops on an installation that is the condition it is in.

 

[andyb]

What a load of rubbish, as has been said the usual NIC making up their own rules.

Once again this is not a case of the Nic making up there own rules, guidance notes 3 published by the IEE advocates calculating Zs.

The Nic are doing it by the book.

 

[IQ Electrical]

Once again this is not a case of the Nic making up there own rules, guidance notes 3 published by the IEE advocates calculating Zs.

The Nic are doing it by the book.

I agree, our 2391 practicals are subject to similar guidelines, with the exception of Ze and PFC, if you can't use the BS1363 socket lead, you 'calculate'.

It goes against all of my testing beliefs and I will always measure Zs exactly as I always have done for many years, all without incident!

It's fashionable to blame the NICEIC but it's not always their fault!

 

[andyb]

True IQ

I'm not keen defending the Nic, but in most cases they are only guilty of going by the letter, not making their own rules up.

 

[ionutmimi]

hi guys
can anyone tell me what exactly do i need for my NIC assessment when it comes to testing gear(calibration box,prooving unit...etc)?
thanks

 

[IQ Electrical]

hi guys
can anyone tell me what exactly do i need for my NIC assessment when it comes to testing gear(calibration box,prooving unit...etc)?
thanks

You need the equipment that you should be using already, to test and inspect an installation to the requirements of BS7671:2008

What are you using now?

 

[ionutmimi]

I want to purchase my own now,as at the moment i am still using one from the training centre.
I noticed that there are a lot of accesories around and i don t want to waste money yet unless is realy necesary
For a new tester is the cali box a must?
I want to buy for now only the stuff that they realy want to see on the assessment

 

[gpz900jim]

you need a tester (multifunction) or testers for all the tests you need to do, calibration certificate a proving unit, a voltage indicator, a plug so that you can plug your test leads into a socket. I think thats it. cali box isnt required

 

[ionutmimi]

thanx gpz900jim

 

[gpz900jim]

read your on site guide as much as you can. I think that the fear of the assessment is worse than the reality. The man that came to see me was very friendly and helpful. I think that a lot of people seem to have a downer on the NIC, I dont know why. They are just doing their job, as far as I can see.

 

[malcolmsanford]

I was with the NICEIC for 12 years when back in the 90's they were the only kids on the block. Then they were fantastic helpful and supportive. I think what went wrong was when the Part P came in.

They thought that as they were the only body for the electrical contracting industry they would be the administrators of it. Then the government, rightly in my view, which is a first agreeing anything about the Part P, opened it up and other bodies emerged, ie NAPIT, ELECSA, BSI. I think then the NICEIC were caught napping and they lost their way a little.

It was then that their attitude changes from a body maintaining standards to becoming a commercial enterprise with training and publication. Again I have no problems with this, everything as to evolve, but I think they now have the attitude that they are superior and how they interpret things is the only way things should be done.

Aside from things like live testing, another are earth electrodes. The BRB clearly states that an ohmeric reading of over 200 ohms is not acceptable as it can prove unstable. The NICEIC say it should be less than 100ohm, they have put their interpretation on it and as far as they are concerend that is it. Whereas in reality with RCD protection of 30mA on a TT system, now for every circuit, the rod could be 1500ohms as long as the R1+R2 for the circuit will bring it under 1666, there are other examples throughtout the NICEIC as well.

I have to say I miss the old NICEIC I had a great relationship with them and my local assessors and management,

 

[gazzamikes]

Me and a mate spent weeks looking through every part p scheme available and thought we'd better go to NIC as then we could do work for our local council and builders. found them not to be very helpful at all. all they were interested in was the money.

talking to a family member (A builder) he said as long as i can do the work and give him a certificate at the end then does it matter who i go with.

decided to go with elecsa, they were much more helpful, answering questions and talking through things me before i had even paid a penny. technical side are extremely good. the assessor was a great guy.

although people say NIC are more widely known, me and a few others have noticed that customers have heard of 'Part P' but not any of the bodies. i havent lost any work not being NIC. elecsa are definately the way forward

 

[IQ Electrical]

The NICEIC aren't all things to all men but I must get at least 2 enquiries a week asking for 'an NIC inspection certificate'. Normally these are insurance-driven and whether Mrs Smith has heard of them or not, their market penetration is far better than that of other schemes.

 

[Des 56]

The NICEIC aren't all things to all men but I must get at least 2 enquiries a week asking for 'an NIC inspection certificate'. Normally these are insurance-driven and whether Mrs Smith has heard of them or not, their market penetration is far better than that of other schemes.

Absolutely correct, the name can generate work and interest the others lack

Very sad, but very true

 

[jase]

on the flipside, i am a CIS employed sub-contractor, i have steady work from 2-3 different firms and have never felt i have enough of my "own work" to justify the £400ish a year to join a scheme, however every now and again i pick up a kitchen or full re-wire and so go down the notification route, pricing in the £200ish quid that i will need to pay, thus covering mine and my customers arses, well twice now i have done this only to find that this has been a complete waste of time, 1st time the local BC had no idea how notification seemed to work, and even tho i had paid them the notification fee would not except my green certificate "as it is not the red ones we like to see" and didnt seem to have a clue about inspecting the job themselves, instead the suggested i get an NICEIC registered company to come and do a periodic inspection???? when i told my client that this was bollox cos he needed and EIC for his new re-wire he said that that is what his building inspector had asked for, so that is what i did and they were happy with that!!!!, 2nd time i called up the BC after i had heard nothing back from them after sending them £200 to notify, and wehn they errrmed and ahhhd about what i should do i suggested that i test and inspect my own work having informed them that i was doing it and that i send them a copy of the EIC so they could look at the results " oh yeah ok then, that sounds ok" came the reply !!! ffs!! like i was telling them how to do theyre job!, this was 2 different building authorities!!!

 

[brucelee]

Hi jase,

I to have contacted my LABC at wigan to ask them the process

first the head of building control told me i would have to pay £190 and they would send someone to inspect and test the work

which my reply was as a qualified competent perso i have to sign for design ,construction and the inspection ad testing he seemed to be saying a approved Elecy would have to inspect and test then sign for it as i am not able to self sert yet until a member of ELECSA

then when i told him i was qualified and know how to inspect and test and fill the EIC in he then said they would still have to send someone to inspect the work but if Elecsa was sendin someone to inspect the work then they could reduce the fee as there was o point two independant electricains inspecting it and he said to see if Elecsa are sendig someone to ispect the work

So i contacted Elecsa and they have said he is wrong I have to inspect and test and fill the EIC which i already knew
the guy from elecsa says the labc are mixing up self certifying and notification and elecsa dont inspect the work as part of the registration process they are ther to see if i am competent ad carrying out the work to the standard and to check you have necesaary docs, tester and filling in certs correctly

Elecsa said that the labc are probably hinting at me doing job and notifying after the assessment and so was he
but then said this is unofficial by law you have to notify


what a load of tosh if LABC dont know how the system works and elecsa then how are we supposed to

and according to approved doc part p i have to cert it and send labc a copy to check to see if any furhter action required

they dont know there own rules and regulations what a complete scam and joke part p is

 

[gpz900jim]

just tell them its inspected, they probably wont even ask, thats what i did.

 

[brucelee]

labc say i have to pay 190 and either they send someone to inspect it or see if elecsa would which elecsa said they dont do it and also if someone else was inspecting it then i would have to prove this in writing
LABC dont even sound like they know what there procedures are
debating wether to just do it and notify after joining elecsa and that depends on if i pass the assessment

 

[Ponty Massive]

debating wether to just do it and notify after joining elecsa and that depends on if i pass the assessment

That's what I did.