Overcoming the problems with working at height

[JD6400]

What access gear do others use when working at height , and how high would you deem it safe to still work from a ladder ?
Also whats the worst case of daft and dangerous behaviour that you have come across by other people working at height .:38:

 

[Des 56]

There were pictures posted on this site a while back showing some crazy ladder work
maybe someone knows where to dig them out from

 

[needasparks]

Well done dp, this ones gonna be interesting.

 

[sparkiegaz]

havnt worked off a ladder in years,,,,done some silly things in the past like most,,,not for me no jobs worth taking the risk,,

 

[JD6400]

Thanks needasparks , i hope so as i think some of the rules are just so prohibitive that they sometimes end up just breeding contempt to what can be a very serious and dangerous dilemma !

 

[alarm man]

What access gear do others use when working at height , and how high would you deem it safe to still work from a ladder ?
Also whats the worst case of daft and dangerous behaviour that you have come across by other people working at height .:38:

re ladders its a temp working platform,20 mins max from memory,involves tying down and wearing a harness otherwise..we have all done the half a brick under the feet to level upor ,using a swivel chair to get a bit higher(which was an art) it doesnt or shouldnt happen these days,are the no steps or ladder sites safer? im not sure..

 

[JD6400]

I will start off the first daft and dangerous one , It was in a very tall grain store and i caught some operatives installing 6ft twin flurries using a JCB lodall on full boom extension with a set of triple gang ladders on full extension out of its grain bucket and just resting against the top of the ladders on a 12" purling at the top , it had one them in the loadall with his foot on the brake as i think the hand brake was shot !

Forgot to mention that there was two cherry pickers on site sitting idle at the time ????

 

[imago]

My public liability insurance covers me up to 30 ft. Basically the ridge height of a two storey house. So that's the maximum I can go to on anything. Ladders are for quick easy stuff, up to that height. The proviso being that I can set the ladder and feel comfortable with it in position.

I can hire a cherry picker for £165 a day, or get a scaffold erected and knocked over three days for £400. I basically make a judgement call on the job based on common sense and price it accordingly.

 

[Des 56]

I once got up on my own roof
My ladders reached only to the troughing,I got the borrowed roofing laddder and slid it up the roof on its wheels to hook over the crests
I got up there with a struggle and farted about with the aerial

Time to come down,thats when it dawned on me it was going to be awkward dangling my legs over the edge to find the rungs
I dangled the legs and got myself down

It wasn't till I was down safe that it sank into my thick brain that the roof ladder was extending out over the edge by about 5 feet and I had just crawled off that with dangling legs
It could and should have lifted the top of the roof ladder off the crests and helped me get to the ground a bit quicker

,but it was my lucky foolish day


That is until I decided on another occasion to slot my slates back up into my disintergrating roof in 100 mph gusts,clinging to the rungs till they died away and back at it till the next

 

[mogga]

some firms banned steps and unfixed( ie not part of scaffolding ) ladders great idea till you have sparks celing fixers plumbers ducters painters ect ect all shoving scaffolds, podiums around its funny trying to get anything to fit a 1200x600 cupboard
as for trying to get scaffold wrapped round pipework in boiler rooms thats FUN

 

[Spazz]

I have just bought myself a 9m ladder as I have had some houses that I cant get to the roof or chimney stack with - not a nice height to work from through.

It came with 2 ropes - 1 for the bottom and 1 for the top - it takes more time to install these than it does to do the job up there.

 

[Knobhead]

I was given the job of re-lamping a plant and was told that the site scaffolders would build a platform for every lamp I needed access to. Things dragged on for about a week and we were getting nowhere fast. I was fed up the scaffolders were going scatty. Start of the second week and I was taken on one side by the scaffolders foreman, “give us a box of lamps and clear off out of the way”. They only built a scaffold if the control gear was faulty, I spent a fortnight in hiding.

 

[Silly Sausage]

Predictable as ever I know.....

Aussie tourist's bungee cord snaps - YouTube

 

[johnboy6083]

i judge each job by merit. I have to climb on top of panels during shutdowns ect, and there is no way you can get a scaffold for a shutdown on a large panel, when the back is not accessibe anyway, and the front is being worked on.

 

[Paul.M]

A picture speaks a thousand words.

 

[Spazz]

Just posted on another thread but is still relevant to this one as well



Just to clear this up - as I used to deliver training on working at heights

If you are self employed: You must ensure you are competent in using the equipment that your planning to use

If your are employed: Your employer has a duty of care and it is down to them to ensure you are competent in using the equipment that your planning to use


Only the employer (employed)/individual (S/E) can decide what training you need.


The customer can also put restrictions in place as they are the ones who are paying for the job.


The HSE will look at it and decide have you/your employer taken all possible steps to prevent this accident as far as reasonably practicable
If the employer has taken all steps and the employee has failed their duty to care for themselves then the employee is to blame

If the answer is yes then your in the clear
If the answer is no then you need to have a good reason and explain yourself to the court if required


A fine will be issued if you fail (above)


Your insurance will not pay out if you have not taken all steps as far as reasonably practicable same as in an employed and S/E basis


The best way is to do a written risk assessment and that will fine line any potential problems - also have next to the suggested actions if it is viable and if not why not - the HSE will look at this and usually clear any charges.

Just dont over look the obvious things as that wont impress the HSE and Insurance





I can provide risk assessments tailored to each individual need if required, but at a fee!

 

[Silly Sausage]

A picture speaks a thousand words. Big ladders

Gear designed for job?!? Would they need footing? I'd feel a bit precarious if they weren't.

This begs a question I've wanted to ask...Honest answers only...when doing inspections & testings with luminaires well out of arms reach (1 man on the job), how many true end of circuit Zs readings are taken?

Maybe an Arms only subject

 

[Des 56]

Just posted on another thread but is still relevant to this one as well



Just to clear this up - as I used to deliver training on working at heights

If you are self employed: You must ensure you are competent in using the equipment that your planning to use

If your are employed: Your employer has a duty of care and it is down to them to ensure you are competent in using the equipment that your planning to use


Only the employer (employed)/individual (S/E) can decide what training you need.


The customer can also put restrictions in place as they are the ones who are paying for the job.


The HSE will look at it and decide have you/your employer taken all possible steps to prevent this accident as far as reasonably practicable
If the employer has taken all steps and the employee has failed their duty to care for themselves then the employee is to blame

If the answer is yes then your in the clear
If the answer is no then you need to have a good reason and explain yourself to the court if required


A fine will be issued if you fail (above)


Your insurance will not pay out if you have not taken all steps as far as reasonably practicable same as in an employed and S/E basis


The best way is to do a written risk assessment and that will fine line any potential problems - also have next to the suggested actions if it is viable and if not why not - the HSE will look at this and usually clear any charges.

Just dont over look the obvious things as that wont impress the HSE and Insurance





I can provide risk assessments tailored to each individual need if required, but at a fee!

And then there is the real world where all this H+S comfy lounge nonsense is imagined but not practical

 

[UNG]

Just posted on another thread but is still relevant to this one as well



Just to clear this up - as I used to deliver training on working at heights

If you are self employed: You must ensure you are competent in using the equipment that your planning to use

If your are employed: Your employer has a duty of care and it is down to them to ensure you are competent in using the equipment that your planning to use


Only the employer (employed)/individual (S/E) can decide what training you need.


The customer can also put restrictions in place as they are the ones who are paying for the job.


The HSE will look at it and decide have you/your employer taken all possible steps to prevent this accident as far as reasonably practicable
If the employer has taken all steps and the employee has failed their duty to care for themselves then the employee is to blame

If the answer is yes then your in the clear
If the answer is no then you need to have a good reason and explain yourself to the court if required


A fine will be issued if you fail (above)


Your insurance will not pay out if you have not taken all steps as far as reasonably practicable same as in an employed and S/E basis


The best way is to do a written risk assessment and that will fine line any potential problems - also have next to the suggested actions if it is viable and if not why not - the HSE will look at this and usually clear any charges.

Just dont over look the obvious things as that wont impress the HSE and Insurance





I can provide risk assessments tailored to each individual need if required, but at a fee!

You neglected to mention that cost is not a consideration when deciding which access method to use

just curious what working at height training did you deliver


It is difficult to carry out a lot of tasks from a ladder safely, when I was doing a lot of radio comms work a number of years ago we used to install eye bolt sockets so we had a secure anchor point if we needed maintenance access at a later date

 

[D80]

Worst I've seen is scissor lift extended to full length, extension ladders out of that for around another 4-5M to the ceiling. Have seen and worked with others that have used tray & basket runs for their access platform, even though its 9M+ up! One missing bracket and from that height its lights out.

I've a fear of heights, that is even more the case when I'm not totally in control. Anything above what my extension ladders can reach I'd really rather not be near it. If cherry picker or scaffold supplied not so big a problem - pretty sure my Insurance is only up to 10M and felt that good enough as I have no plans to go any higher!

 

[D80]

A picture speaks a thousand words.

Why do they make the top treads on ladders if they don't expect that people will stand on them?:tounge_smile:

 

[Rockingit]

Part of what I'm currently doing in Qatar is training (very loose use of the term) the local guys in better H&S awareness and 'being an example of UK standards'. In a country where most of the manual labour is Indian/Pakistani/Malay it's a constant battle as life is cheap. Scaffolding that is warped and bent to the point that a 50' ladder would be safer, guys who can't read and have no formal training, harnesses, hi-viz or hats doing crazy things on booms and scissors. Trying to explain to someone why it's not a good idea to mix phases across the same steel work only inches apart and getting the reply 'but this is the desert, it doesn't matter' is just typical.

So before we get all caught up on the finer points of what make of step ladder is better than another, and how the HSE will do this that or the other if so-and-so is caught doing whatever, let's please all take a chill pill and remember that we have the luxury of saying this from being far higher up the evolutionary tree than many others.

I'm currently spending around 8hrs a day at approx 140' up - my safety doesn't bother me at all as I'm extremely well trained & qualified, have years of experience and all the kit. What bothers me is the turnips that will walk directly underneath me and the picker and haven't the slightest clue that I might accidentally kill them in a fraction of a second if I drop something by mistake. Or will insist in still trying to walk around and dodge the engine unit if I've no choice other than to drive it from up (happens a lot in entertainment venues). But they're just a Philipino waiter, right? There's another one waiting in the wings......

I'll take some pics during my day today and post up if I get a chance.

 

[mogga]

One of the firms I use to work for doing site temps got round the NO STEPS rule by detailed risk assesment
Hilti on pole to fix hanging chains
Cables, flexes fed in using rods where possable minimal use of steps
fitting junction boxes made off from podium steps
fittings secured at appropriate height using normal 8 tread step ladders assuming fitting max height of 3mtr
all work done out with normal site times to minimise risk of others hitting steps ( also stopped them moaning "How come they have steps and we cant")
All in all it made more sence both HnS wise as building,stripping,rebuilding introduced more risk of something being missed off scaffolding

 

[Spazz]

I am NEBOSH and IOSH

I do the general working at heights regs.

I used to train the HSE Inspectors in my local councils.


I can still deliver them now but no accreditation as its lapsed.

All working at height is the same - Safety Safety Safety




Do everything in your power and you will be fine.

A risk assessment also must include cost - as far as reasonably practicable.

If a customer is only paying you £300 to do a job which generates £100 profit for the company and a scissor lift costs £100 it is not as far as reasonably practicable to hire one in
However if it costs £25 per day and you say I need to make at least £150 on every job - apart from you not making that in the first place that is not considered as an excuse!


3 years delivering these courses to people who inspect people like ourselves who have fallen off said equipment and ladders - you pic up some stories and the outcome of them


The law states that you as the employer must do everything as far as reasonably practicable to protect those who work for you and those who may be around as a result of your work activities

IT DOES NOT STATE YOU MUST DO THIS COURSE AND THIS AND THIS

That is a recommendation (ONLY) in the approved code of practice and then they dont say you must do this and this!


Your insurance are the only ones who can say you must do a course as they are covering you - yet again you can always change insurance companies

Same goes for equipment you use.

 

[needasparks]

So when i used steps on the top of a scissor lift because it was not high enough, is a no, no then.

 

[Spazz]

If you did a risk assessment (RA) and it said that is cheaper then buying a new ladder to reach you extra meter then go for it

I am not responsible for any injury you cause to yourself or anyone else!!!!




Back to real life - NO IT BLOODY AINT!! - lol

Do the RA and take note, do I have to explain myself again?????



hehe

 

[needasparks]

I did the risk assessment and it said unless i get these high bays working now it will be dark, call me a girl but doing it by torchlight at 23mtrs up would not be fun. I'm scared of the dark.....

 

[malcolmsanford]

Many moons ago a fellow contractor called me and asked if I could give him an hand and bring my mobile tower with me. ok says I.

So gets to site it was at Kent International airport before it was that, and he was in a storage building. Job turned out to be this and that, but it appeared Siemans had installed a new fangled, CCTV system, and in them days CCTV was new fangled, and one of the cameras had failed, and was being replaced.

Any way this building must have been 20-25 metres easy and his 6x4 mobile was fully built, and never even reached half way, he had the 10mt working height platform one.

So I get I need yours Malc to extend into the apex for siemans ............so off loaded mine and off we go so now we are putting mine on top of his .................we are half way doing this and I'm now getting Squeaky B time. Builds it and there we are I reckon we are 19mts on this thing, and 19 metres is a long way, and every movement she is swaying as if in a gale. I gets down and up turns Siemans, who takes one look at this and pales, your joking we get.

After much discussions, and a few more your joking, over steps mate, "his offered us a score to change the broken camera", "as he I say". So now i'm thinking your joking ................so off we go pushing this monster over to the broken camera,Siemans gets the unit and up goes my mate ................down comes my mate and walks over to the van, where he gets out a 7 tread step ladder.

"Malc just a gnats too short, give us an hand" Up we go, this bitch is swaying like a drunk on Saturday. with us lugging up a wooden step ladder. Finally on top of this thing, and breathing is swaying this tower, mate opens up ladder and up he goes, so we are now on top of a double extened tower, me holding on for grim death, my mate is another 8-9 feet up on a step ladder, changing a camera.

We have now got us a crowd, Siemans is having a smoke and a couple of the lads are shouting up, how long lads there's an artic in any minute, I'm sort of bricking it my mate is tugging at this broken camera, and of course we are swaying back and forth.....................finally new fitted and down we come, I have never felt so relieved. Mate have a ciggie, over comes siemans, "lads this shroud needs to go over the connections" not sure if Siemans ever heard more profound language but suffice to say it never got it, and my mate never did give me half of that score

 

[JD6400]

Well Malcolm , as they say " they don't build them like they used to ! "

 

[Rockingit]

Malcolm - cheers mate, you've no idea how much I needed that laugh!

 

[Tim'o]

There is only one way to be safe at height and that is by abseiling, I used to do alot of tight access abseiling in london and is by far the best and cheapest way in many cases.

 

[Spazz]

Where is this light I need to replace???

 

[needasparks]

Ropes are to tie ya ladders on the van not to be used instead of. And sometimes in the bedroom.........

 

[Tim'o]

Haven't had alot of need for it as a sparks, more when i did property maintenance work although you could use it for P.V work and would take away the need for scaffold.

 

[Spazz]

You say that needasparks

This is Q Technical Services (UK) Limited

 

[Tim'o]

You wouldn't want to drop your screwdriver! Where are they based?

 

[Rockingit]

Got that t-shirt, too.

 

[Spazz]

Q Technical Services (UK) Ltd

Unit B4 Halesfield 5
Telford
Shropshire
TF7 4QJ​

 

[Paul.M]

Who needs ropes?

And first prize for the Darwin award goes to.........

 

[Rockingit]

So what method did Q use to put the beam clamp on in the first place, then?? Bet they never took photo's of that bit.

 

[Spazz]

No they didnt - it looks like rollers and the use of gravity to hold them inwards and a brace bar to stabilize it.

It looks like it can move along the beam as well.


Follow the link below the pictures and click on the picture on their site and you can zoom in on that part.

 

[Rockingit]

I can't be 100% sure as the pic gets too grainy when I enlarge it, but it looks like a standard I beam clamp, and they don't roll horizontally (unless you push them when they're loose) - basically just a big jaw that winds shut but overlaps the bottom edge of the beam. I bet a pint that it go put on, slid along, then someone had to do something silly in order to tighten the jaw shut!

 

[Spazz]

Something like this

Just Google beam clamp trolley and loads come up in the images section

 

[Rockingit]

Only just having seen your 'link' comment and followed it, I'll give you half a pint..... they're single rollers tied together, but they still need to have been screwed tight!

 

[Spazz]

I personally think I would rather go on the ones I found on Google they look more sturdy compared the others they used, look like they could twist and one come off.

 

[ipf]

Many moons ago a fellow contractor called me and asked if I could give him an hand and bring my mobile tower with me. ok says I.

So gets to site it was at Kent International airport before it was that, and he was in a storage building. Job turned out to be this and that, but it appeared Siemans had installed a new fangled, CCTV system, and in them days CCTV was new fangled, and one of the cameras had failed, and was being replaced.

Any way this building must have been 20-25 metres easy and his 6x4 mobile was fully built, and never even reached half way, he had the 10mt working height platform one.

So I get I need yours Malc to extend into the apex for siemans ............so off loaded mine and off we go so now we are putting mine on top of his .................we are half way doing this and I'm now getting Squeaky B time. Builds it and there we are I reckon we are 19mts on this thing, and 19 metres is a long way, and every movement she is swaying as if in a gale. I gets down and up turns Siemans, who takes one look at this and pales, your joking we get.

After much discussions, and a few more your joking, over steps mate, "his offered us a score to change the broken camera", "as he I say". So now i'm thinking your joking ................so off we go pushing this monster over to the broken camera,Siemans gets the unit and up goes my mate ................down comes my mate and walks over to the van, where he gets out a 7 tread step ladder.

"Malc just a gnats too short, give us an hand" Up we go, this bitch is swaying like a drunk on Saturday. with us lugging up a wooden step ladder. Finally on top of this thing, and breathing is swaying this tower, mate opens up ladder and up he goes, so we are now on top of a double extened tower, me holding on for grim death, my mate is another 8-9 feet up on a step ladder, changing a camera.

We have now got us a crowd, Siemans is having a smoke and a couple of the lads are shouting up, how long lads there's an artic in any minute, I'm sort of bricking it my mate is tugging at this broken camera, and of course we are swaying back and forth.....................finally new fitted and down we come, I have never felt so relieved. Mate have a ciggie, over comes siemans, "lads this shroud needs to go over the connections" not sure if Siemans ever heard more profound language but suffice to say it never got it, and my mate never did give me half of that score

Donkeys years ago, when I was about 17, i was working with my old fella at a rugby stadium removing a big, old, round, metal reflected light fitting from half way up the spion kop. With help from a member of the groundstaff, a player, big lad who shall remain unnamed, we got the ladder up into position. The old man went up, at least 40ft, I footed on the terracing. He disconnected and after about 10mins, with ladder boucing back and forth, managed to loosen the rusty old chain fixings. He swung the weight and shouted to keep clear below. Our helper shouted ''Drop it mate, I'll catch it'' to which echoed from above ''**** off you daft ****''. It came down and took a big chunk of concrete off the terracing. Needless to say, if our helper, with his massive hands, had made an attempt at that partcular 'bomb' there would have been a spare seat on the plane for the up and comming tour of Australia and NZ.
We probably charged half a day's labour for the work. I dare not think how much today, not least with all the H+S requirements.

 

[Des 56]

Just read Malcolms epic climb and it reminded me of this one I have seen posted on this forum in the past

Now this is what I call working at heights,not your H+S death defying 3 rung ladder act :snore: , but real life safety climbing without the H+S freaks hanging on to our coat tails
Now I would love to shin up this turkey
massive climb up antenna station - YouTube

 

[Spazz]

NO THANK YOU!!!

I felt sick just watching them

 

[JD6400]

NO THANK YOU!!!

I felt sick just watching them

The same here !

I can not even imagine how they could do it ?

 

[Engineer54]

Just read Malcolms epic climb and it reminded me of this one I have seen posted on this forum in the past

Now this is what I call working at heights,not your H+S death defying 3 rung ladder act :snore: , but real life safety climbing without the H+S freaks hanging on to our coat tails
Now I would love to shin up this turkey
massive climb up antenna station - YouTube

That's because they'd never go up that mast to do any assessment, and nor would i... lol!!!

Just think how much that thing must sway in any kind of wind!! It's only held in place by guide wires... No wonder the second guy had to hang on to the technicians tool bag to stop it swinging around. Your not just climbing those things you need a pretty good balance while your climbing too!! lol!! Rather them then me!!!