PV and Voltage Optimisation

[matthunt]

Hi Guys

I saw the other day a Voltage Optimisation Company stating that you can connect and feed an inverter via an optimised circuit, are there any views on how this would be allowed under G83-2

 

[SibertSolar]

Can't see how this can be allowed/compliant with G83/2 to be honest, what was the company?

 

[Gavin A]

Can't be done unless maybe you also fit a separate G83 relay the grd side of the VO unit.

 

[matthunt]

Can't see how this can be allowed/compliant with G83/2 to be honest, what was the company?

The Company is VO4home and they are advertising it on their website

 

[SibertSolar]

http://vo4home.com/LiteratureRetrieve.aspx?ID=128836

So they are...

 

[Gavin A]

not for long, email sent and ENA copied in.

 

[SibertSolar]

Nicely done Gavin, let's see what falls out of that rattled cage....

 

[trev]

I still cannot believe that these voltage optimisation companies are allowed to get away with selling their lies.

 

[SibertSolar]

I know, it's frustrating. The thing is, they're only shooting themselves in the foot really, VO has a viable use for certain applications and load types but it's often sold as a magic box that is a cure-all for all applications. Proper VO (not just effectively a step-down transformer) with a decent current limit before bypass can provide savings to the user, if installed correctly and no pulling of wool over eyes is going on....

 

[trev]

A kilowatt is a kilowatt is a kilowatt as far as I'm concerned, to the best of my knowledge the laws of physics can't be changed so no matter what is said I just don't buy that these things are anything other than smoke and mirrors.

 

[SibertSolar]

That's very true, you're not wrong there. Power over time is a factor though, in terms of running costs of certain load types, which is what these guys should stick to focusing on - and they should stop telling people it's ok to fit them on the grid side of PV systems!

 

[trev]

Power over time? So what happens to a 2kw kettle if you knock the voltage down?
NB, I am definitely not trolling you for an argument mate. I fail to see how these things can possibly work and therefore save anyone any money.
I've heard of companies being conned out of thousands to fit them and they've had them ripped out again after a few weeks because things don't work properly.

 

[SibertSolar]

It's ok, I know exactly where you're coming from. I agree that in a domestic environment, they offer very little value, particularly the basic step-down transformer types. A resistive load like a kettle or bar heater is just going to take a bit longer to do the same job - no benefit. I'm talking about industrial/commercial applications where fixed speed motors/fans etc are running at unnecessarily high rpm, unregulated, and large high-pressure sodium lighting is in use. I'm thinking more about 3ph units that actually DO optimise their output voltage and keep it stable regardless of incoming supply fluctuations. In the right environment, with the right equipment, it is viable, it's been used in some form or fashion in industrial circles for many years.

 

[sparky712]

Power over time? So what happens to a 2kw kettle if you knock the voltage down?
NB, I am definitely not trolling you for an argument mate. I fail to see how these things can possibly work and therefore save anyone any money.
I've heard of companies being conned out of thousands to fit them and they've had them ripped out again after a few weeks because things don't work properly.

This is true for items such as kettles but for items such as TVs, DVD, etc when they usually are 220-240 but converted to DC. It can help for certain items because the required DC output will be achieved whether the input is anywhere from 220-240, so there will be less power loss on a 220 > DC conversion as from a 240 > DC conversion.

There will be a hit for items like kettles, immersion heaters and bar fires as the input power will be less so will take longer to heat up and output less power (heat). Some people will notice this, others go and do something else while the kettle boils so would never notice.

Overall, it may be difficult to ascertain the true saving as most households contain a variety of different devices.

I don't hear the Germans complaining their Krupps kettles take longer to boil in Germany than our Russell Hobbs do in the UK.

 

[trev]

Nor are they likely to because they are used to how long their kettles take to boil but that is not the issue.
Either things will take longer to heat up thus using exactly the same amount of power or there will be a lower output. I'd welcome your explanation on how all the items in our house, which are designed to run on AC could miraculously be changed to run on DC without any intervention. If this is not possible, how much is it going to cost someone to swap perfectly functioning AC appliances to DC?
As I've said, I've heard of large industrial buildings being conned into fitting these things and subsequently having them ripped out again because either the savings that were promised never materialised or because things just didn't work.
Another poster once tried to explain it using a 10kw shower as an example. He said if you change the wattage to 8.5k everything works out perfectly. When I asked how one changes the wattage of an appliance he went very quiet, hence my stance that a kilowatt is a kilowatt is a kilowatt

 

[Worcester]

This is true for items such as kettles but for items such as TVs, DVD, etc when they usually are 220-240 but converted to DC. It can help for certain items because the required DC output will be achieved whether the input is anywhere from 220-240, so there will be less power loss on a 220 > DC conversion as from a 240 > DC conversion.

There will be a hit for items like kettles, immersion heaters and bar fires as the input power will be less so will take longer to heat up and output less power (heat). Some people will notice this, others go and do something else while the kettle boils so would never notice.

Overall, it may be difficult to ascertain the true saving as most households contain a variety of different devices.

I don't hear the Germans complaining their Krupps kettles take longer to boil in Germany than our Russell Hobbs do in the UK.

Actually those items that have multi-voltage inputs like Laptop chargers (100-220V) won't benefit either - so when doing an audit on a commercial premises you often have to discount the PC's, flat screens and LED lighting for the same reason.

 

[SibertSolar]

Correct, as well as resistive loads, most AC/DC PSUs will not benefit from a lower input voltage. That's my point, in the domestic environment, there's hardly ever a load that will benefit from a power consumption point of view. You will hear arguments that the longevity of a device is improved but I doubt very much that it is tangible or, even if it is, that is provides any real ROI benefit.

 

[sparky712]

Nor are they likely to because they are used to how long their kettles take to boil but that is not the issue.
I'd welcome your explanation on how all the items in our house, which are designed to run on AC could miraculously be changed to run on DC without any intervention. If this is not possible, how much is it going to cost someone to swap perfectly functioning AC appliances to DC?

I didn't say all items, just some.

If you check your laptop PSU you will note that the i/p is some 100-240V ac and the o/p something of the order 12-24v dc (mine is 19v dc). That's because micro-electronic and electronic equipment actually uses DC power, not AC. So back to the original query, a 220v ac input will give a 19v o/p much the same as a 240v i/p.

It is not the same for the likes of kettles, washing machines (the motor and heater, not the controller or logic board), electric showers and immersion heaters - these will be affected by a drop in the ac voltage.

 

[trev]

I didn't say all items, just some.

If you check your laptop PSU you will note that the i/p is some 100-240V ac and the o/p something of the order 12-24v dc (mine is 19v dc). That's because micro-electronic and electronic equipment actually uses DC power, not AC. So back to the original query, a 220v ac input will give a 19v o/p much the same as a 240v i/p.

It is not the same for the likes of kettles, washing machines, electric showers and immersion heaters - these will be affected by a drop in the ac voltage.

I get the feeling that we're starting to split hairs here mate and that is not my intention. Nor is it my intention to troll this thread looking for an argument because that's just not me, I genuinely do not see how these things can benefit anyone whether that be an industrial concern or Mrs Goggins down the road.
Yes my laptop runs on 19 volts DC however the PSU is plugged in to an AC supply and it's the little box of tricks between them that steps the voltage down and rectifies it. I understand how that works and don't dispute it for a minute. It seems that the whole point of what I'm trying to point out is being missed so I might just stfu and bow out of this.

 

[ferg]

I must admit I've always struggled to get my head round the benefits of voltage optimisation for the reasons you have stated Trev.

If someone can get me to buy one then they have missed their vocation in life.

Selling snow to eskimos springs to mind.

 

[trev]

So, a final stab at getting my point across.
Take a 10 kw item of current using equipment, now that could be anything because in my world it doesn't matter.
At 240 volts it draws (10,000/240)= 41.67 amps
Now lets look at it at 210 volts (10,000/210)= 47.61 amps
You cannot arbitrarily decide that this 10kw thing is now anything other than a 10kw thing. It is what it is. Either the power over time is going to be exactly the same or the output/performance of it is going to be affected.
I can't for the life of me see any way past that. Maybe I'm thick or I've forgotten a lot of the theory I learnt as a boy but for me the maths and science can't be changed.

 

[Worcester]

Trev

Most of us agree with you for almost all households it's a waste of money.

In industrial environments as Sibert pointed out it's different, there is a lot of non inverter controlled and non variable power supply equipement that was designed to work on 220V (remember V=IR and W=V*I) For these items if you reduce V then you'll reduce I so W goes down by twice as much.

With the grid pushing out higher and higher voltages with all the micro-generation going on we have seen well over 240V at some commercial sites. These sites running older compressors, industrial machinery and refrigeration plant which was designed to run on 220V and so will work happily at that level with no reduction in performance, same with the old inefficient fluorescent lighting. In these cases the client sees a payback usually in under three years.

For a household, I don't see the benefit.

 

[davesparks]

Why do plants in this country have kit designed to run on 220V? DNOs have been supplying 250V at their substations since the grid began, and if they are big industrial sites they will have their own transformers which they can change trappings to whatever voltage they need.

 

[davesparks]

So, a final stab at getting my point across.
Take a 10 kw item of current using equipment, now that could be anything because in my world it doesn't matter.
At 240 volts it draws (10,000/240)= 41.67 amps
Now lets look at it at 210 volts (10,000/210)= 47.61 amps
You cannot arbitrarily decide that this 10kw thing is now anything other than a 10kw thing. It is what it is. Either the power over time is going to be exactly the same or the output/performance of it is going to be affected.
I can't for the life of me see any way past that. Maybe I'm thick or I've forgotten a lot of the theory I learnt as a boy but for me the maths and science can't be changed.

At 210V it won't use 10KW, the power is a product of the voltage and resistance.
The resistance will remain constant so as the voltage is reduced the power will reduce proportionally, right down to the point where applying zero volts uses zero power.

Look at a new electric shower and you will see they have a 240V rating and a 230V rating with the 230V rating being less than the 240V.

 

[matthunt]

Sorry Trev but you are totally wrong in your calculations as pointed out by davesparks as current and voltage are proportional on resistive loads so now your 10kw thing is no longer a 10kw thing, probably best to draw the old triangle out and work it through before commenting!
Anyway have we any response over the inverter being fed from an optimised circuit from the manufacturers?

 

[davesparks]

Don't get me wrong, I am 100% in support of Trev's conclusion about voltage optimisation, it's just that particular bit of theory that he is a little mistaken about.

 

[SibertSolar]

@matt - not as yet, as far as I am aware

 

[matthunt]

here's throwing one out there!, I am actually all for it if used in the correct way, by this I mean for equipment protection in the first instance but with an added energy saving as a plus point. As we all know PV system have a nasty little by-product dependent on localised grid conditions being overvoltage, CE rated products really don't like 250v up em for a prolonged period of time

 

[Gavin A]

Don't get me wrong, I am 100% in support of Trev's conclusion about voltage optimisation, it's just that particular bit of theory that he is a little mistaken about.

for resistive loads the power would reduce, but if used in a kettle etc then this would have no impact on overall consumption levels, merely that the kettle would take slightly longer to boil using the same level of energy.

There are energy savings for lights, showers etc as people basically just put up with slightly lower light levels, slightly reduced shower flows, but obviously these savings could also be achieve by using an 8W energy saving light bulb rather than a 10W, or running the shower on 1 setting rather than 2 (and it could be that it resulted in someone increasing the shower setting to compensate, thereby using more power not less).

The real claimed savings come from older fridges, freezers, pumps etc where it's claimed that they operate more efficiently at 220V. Personally I've come to the view that this is a bit of a false saving, as much greater savings could be made by replacing these old fridges and freezers with modern high efficiency inverter driven models. I've also experienced pumps failing after introduction of VO as presumably they can't get the same pressure up as they used to be able to, and can't overcome the pressure drop in the heating system, or something like that (could be a coincidence, but the timing was very suspicious).

Combined with solar, Vo units will also enable the solar to power a greater proportion of a load such as a kettle boiling, as the energy input is spread over a longer time period, which is a minor impact, but still a benefit at some level.

VO units really work though in industrial settings with unbalanced supply phases, with VO units with variable voltage control on each phase designed to rebalance the phases. In this setting I understand there can be some fairly significant savings to be made, plus lifespan extentions on the machinery.

In most domestic settings though, I've come to the conclusion that it's not justified, particularly when you take into account the losses in the transformer. The exceptions being for houses with older swimming pool kit, with huge energy consumption from old pumps, dehumidifiers etc that are running almost continuously.

 

[matthunt]

Hi Gavin, have you thought about the longevity of the appliances rather than the energy saving aspect, what you have to remember is that historically our voltages have ben higher in the evening when industry shuts down, now the voltages are also higher in the daytime due to the growing amount of micro-generation being utilised, there seems to be a pattern here and one that is well known with he ENA, indeed they were even suggesting in line voltage regulators for domestic housing back in 2010 for the DNOs to look at inline with the smart meter rollout, they released a white paper about it

 

[Gavin A]

Re the original post, the link has now been removed, and ENA have requested the company to contact all solar installers they've supplied kit to to advise them that their recommended installation method breached G83 regulations, and any systems installed in this way will need to be rewired to ensure they are compliant.

 

[a1colly]

Good job Gavin!!

 

[matthunt]

Suspect there is going to be a lot of poor PV companies that have now got to go back to all their jobs and connect the PV off the unoptimised side eek!

 

[Gavin A]

Suspect there is going to be a lot of poor PV companies that have now got to go back to all their jobs and connect the PV off the unoptimised side eek!

I suspect that any who were daft enough to follow that advice are also very unlikely to actually be conscientious enough to follow through with that and go back to rewire those houses, unless directly contacted and forced into it.

 

[matthunt]

Here's fingers crossed the manufacturers get in contact with them, although I would imagine it will be nearly impossible for the ENA to police

 

[matthunt]

They Back on line guys!