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  1. chronyx
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    chronyx Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Surrey, UK
    Doing a lot of EICRs in London at the moment and I'd say every other C.U. has a ring circuit with no continuity on one of the conductors.

    Seeing as the IET see fit to tinker around the edges constantly with the regs, I struggle to understand why these potentially extremely dangerous circuits are still permitted. Yet bonding and earth conductors have almost doubled in size because, well, they said so.

    It's not 1949 anymore. Ban the damn things.
     
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  2. andyb
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    andyb Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    West Sussex
    I like them.
     
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  3. chronyx
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    chronyx Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Surrey, UK
    I don't.
     
  4. kingeri
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    kingeri Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Yorkshire
    Any circuit can be subject to various failures over the years, not just ring finals. Found a radial socket circuit recently with no cpc continuity beyond the first socket. Had it been a ring, there would still have been an earth connected from the other leg.
     
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  5. Wes1000
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    Wes1000 Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Worcestershire
    Isn't that the fault of the people who tinker with the circuits without knowing what they are doing. Maybe they should ban them instead.
     
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  6. Pete999
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    Pete999 Trusted Advisor

    Top Poster Of Month

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    Northampton
    I do
     
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  7. Murdoch
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    Murdoch Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Woking
    I think its horses for courses.... in the "average" house the only rooms where load may be an issue are likely to be the kitchen and utility - so the remaining circuits should all be radials IMHO
     
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  8. chronyx
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    chronyx Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Surrey, UK
    It doesn't matter who's fault it is, it's an inherently dangerous design. Just like plastic C.U.s apparently were/are.
     
  9. chronyx
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    chronyx Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Surrey, UK
    Are we really that strapped we can't just run a 4mm radial? :D It's pathetic.
     
  10. chronyx
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    chronyx Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Surrey, UK
    A 2 second 'Martindale' test would have identified that. (Edit: As opposed to the 'end-to-end' tests that mean dismantling C.U. and circuit)
     
  11. VoltzElectrical
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    VoltzElectrical Electrician's Arms

    I hate Ring Finals. Periodic testing is a pain. We tests some of our public buildings annually for licensing purposes and when there are over 50 distribution boards, the disconnecting and reconnecting of RFD circuits to prove continuity does more harm than good.

    This is my opinion, and I appreciate that others feel differently.
     
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  12. davesparks
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    davesparks Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    guildford
    That would cause a massive price increase on quite a lot of installations as thcable sizes go way up, and potentially cause a loss of redundancy where rings are installed for that purpose.
    Ring circuits are used for a lot more than just domestic socket circuits, they feature ything up to high voltage distribution circuits, where would you draw the line with your 'ban'?
     
  13. kingeri
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    kingeri Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Yorkshire
    Rings are very versatile circuits, it's a daft idea to ban them based on finding some with faults. I admit I am inclined to install radials for sockets more often than i used to, but then again I tend to install more circuits in total these days too. Gone are the days when there is one ring serving all the sockets in the house! Although this was the case for many years and I don't remember hearing of loads of houses burning down as a result. In my view, it is testament to the robustness of the ring.
     
  14. Murdoch
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    Murdoch Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Woking
    I was really thinking about those shed sold sockets where getting more than 2 x 2.5mm cables in the terminals can be tricky....
     
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  15. chronyx
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    chronyx Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Surrey, UK
    Crap, we're the only country that uses them.
     
  16. Andy78
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    Andy78 Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Kingston upon Hull
    How about campaigning for greater awareness of the importance of householders regularly having their installations tested rather than banning circuits that the lowest skilled in our trade may have problems with installing and testing ? Do you really want to advocate the continued dumbing down ?
     
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  17. davesparks
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    davesparks Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    guildford
    Every circuit has the potential to be extremely dangerous if it is not installed and tested properly, why would you single out ring circuits for this?

    How old are the circuits you are finding these issues with? Are they reasonably modern circuits which have been fully tested at the time of installation or are they older circuits which may not have been tested at install or have been fiddled with over time?
     
  18. bigspark17
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    bigspark17 Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    wales
    I love rings.. yes testing them compared to radials on an eicr is a pain but for me the pros far outweigh he cons! Do you r1/rn & r1/r2 @ every socket with cables crossed at db out of interest?
     
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  19. kingeri
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    kingeri Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Yorkshire
    I did identify it, the point is that it had probably been like that for years.
     
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  20. davesparks
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    davesparks Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    guildford
    I wouldn't know about that, but I do know that my commercial customers have ring circuits installed for the output of static inverters and central battery systems to reduce voltage drop and give redundancy, especially on lower voltage DC circuits.
    Car park lighting or large area lighting also utilises ring circuits to limit volt drop and cable size.
    Distribution circuits, both LV and HV, utilise various forms of ring circuits, mostly for redundancy.

    You would sure as hell see a lot more power cuts if a universal ban on ring circuits was applied across the country
     
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  21. kingeri
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    kingeri Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Yorkshire
    And 4mm radials are far more limited, fart near the cable and the CCC drops below 32A.
     
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  22. chronyx
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    chronyx Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Surrey, UK
    All sorts, new colours through to late 1970's stuff.

    Yes they will have been modified poorly but that's my point, at least an overloaded radial (As long as the MCB isn't over-rated) will just trip rather than work fine up until the point the smoke starts.
     
  23. chronyx
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    chronyx Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Surrey, UK
    Is there a CCC chart for 2x2.5mm T&E?

    Or do you mean the 100 square metre area allowed of a ring circuit?
     
  24. Andy78
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    Andy78 Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Kingston upon Hull
    How many ring circuits have you encountered with broken continuity that have been overloaded to the point where the smoke starts ?
     
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  25. kingeri
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    kingeri Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Yorkshire
    I mean unless clipped direct, you can't run it on a 32A mcb.
     
  26. chronyx
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    chronyx Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Surrey, UK
    One today that's why I posted.

    I guess I'm just amazed that something that has the potential to cause serious damage is just fine, while we're now told to C3 plastic consumer units and make sure there's RCD protection for near enough everything.

    Oh well, clearly in a minority of 1. :D
     
  27. chronyx
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    chronyx Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Surrey, UK
    Ah gotcha
     
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  28. kingeri
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    kingeri Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Yorkshire
    That's not to say that I never use 32A 4mm radials, cos I do. I just think every circuit has it's place and that it comes down to proper design.
     
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  29. Risteard
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    Risteard Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Derry, Ireland
    Business Name:
    Walsh Electrical Services
    Me too. I fully support and endorse the ring final circuit when used appropriately and correctly.

    Rubbish DIY work or incompetent Electricians not verifying circuit integrity is not the fault of the ring final circuit.
     
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  30. Risteard
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    Risteard Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Derry, Ireland
    Business Name:
    Walsh Electrical Services
    Precisely.

    Long live the ring final circuit.
     
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  31. chronyx
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    chronyx Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Surrey, UK
    OK fine. For the sake of clarity/pedantry I was referring to a 32A ring final circuit, with 2.5mm live conductors and a 1.5mm CPC, in a domestic/unsupervised situation.
     
  32. 7029 dave
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    7029 dave Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    bedfordshire
    I like them, because it's ours.Do we really want to go back in time, when 15amp radials were about, with the electric tree growing off it.?
    But the modern radials do have their place in some situations. Just MO.
     
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  33. westward10
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    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    Ring final circuits are here to stay like them or not what I really love when testing them are the people who save £5 a year but putting two cpcs through one sleeve, maybe even twisting them together at the same time.
     
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  34. Wes1000
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    Wes1000 Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Worcestershire
    Man I hate that!!
     
  35. andyb
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    andyb Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    West Sussex
    That's my favourite type of ring circuit.
     
  36. Hellmooth
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    Hellmooth Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Livingston
    Business Name:
    CM Electrical
    That is the worst, well that and trying to find both legs in a spaghetti junction mess!
     
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  37. Dave OCD
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    Dave OCD Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Cornwall
    Business Name:
    Hendry Electrical Services
    It's often much easier to do the end to ends and R1+R2 tests at a convenient socket rather than disconnecting within a 'busy' CU.
     
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  38. valleybilly
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    valleybilly Scuber Do

    Location:
    Manchester
    Found an immersion heater on a ring this week with only 2 other bedroom sockets on it . The load was 3kw for the heater and all tests are good so as it was an old install and it was an CU change only . Rings Rule !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! . PS Did reduce the rcbo to 20 amps
     
  39. davesparks
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    davesparks Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    guildford
    What's wrong with an immersion heater on a ring? It's been pretty common for decades. I wouldn't do it on a new installation, but see no issue with it as an alteration to an existing install.
    Why reduce the size of the ocpd? Was there something wrong with the circuit?
     
  40. Pat H
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    Pat H Don't ask, get an Electrician in.

    Location:
    Ware Herts
    Business Name:
    Sparks of Intelligence
    Immersions on rings should be less of an issue nowadays. With modern Central heating people us a lot less electric heaters so ring loading is often less than it would have been when elec was cheap.
     
  41. westward10
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    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    Is is not ideal to have immersions on a ring final but they are nearly always on the lightly loaded bedroom circuit. Can only assume the 20A was put on because it wasn't switched through a FCU?
     
  42. westward10
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    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    I have two family members who rely on the immersion for hot water.
     
  43. Midwest
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    Midwest Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Oxfordshire
  44. Midwest
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    Midwest Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Oxfordshire
    Awhile ago I watched a vid from the Learning Lounge, by Dave Austin (no it's not out on Blue ray) demonstrating testing of a RFC. There was a footnote, that the EU were going to phase out RFC's, can't find a citation for that. But now we have Brexit, we can forget about that :D
     
  45. chronyx
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    chronyx Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Surrey, UK
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