NICEIC Certification Scheme 2391 V NICEIC - Whats the point in 2391??

[Sparky10]

Hi Guys,

A debate at work and im slightly confused and thought maybe someone here may shed some light.

What is the point in doing your 2391 Testing course? Apparently to be NIC Registered you do not need to have 2391 Inspection & Testing & You are able to sign work off.
However if you have your 2391 you are still unable to sign work off as your are not NIC Registered?

It seems all a bit backward if you ask me how can you be unqualified and sign work off? but maybe there is truth in what i am being told.

If so why do the 2391 when you could sign up to NIC for less then half the price.

Thanks Guys

 

[Taylortwocities]

Is 2391 still a C&G course?

 

[Dillb]

Is 2391 still a C&G course?

Yes they have reintroduced it, but as always it been dumbed down a little I believe its even a open book exam now. Although the numers after the 2391 have changed so you can tell which course people have done.

 

[Dillb]

Your 2391 will prove competence, while the NICEIC will.......no better not dont want to be banned this early into my return.

 

[Andy78]

Same reason to take any course, to improve your understanding of a particular subject and to be able to prove that to others.

You can test and issue certificates with a possession of basic competence, the kind that is gained during normal training to be an electrician.

Joining a competent persons scheme would facilitate the notification of work to building control.

Depends what you mean by "sign off"

The 2391 is the current course code used by City and guilds. It's basically the 2394/5 renamed and made open book examinations.

 

[Octopus]

Just to be clear the NIC aren't the only scheme:

Napit
Stroma
BSI
Elecsa (NIC)
NIC

.....

 

[Rpa07]

Your 2391 will prove competence, while the NICEIC will.......no better not dont want to be banned this early into my return.

Welcome back Dillb, how about putting that face of yours back on the avatar?

 

[Dillb]

Welcome back Dillb, how about putting that face of yours back on the avatar?

I will do, just need to find a updated picture of my ugly mush.

 

[Sparky10]

Just to be clear the NIC aren't the only scheme:

Napit
Stroma
BSI
Elecsa (NIC)
NIC

.....

I am aware of all the schemes, Just NIC is most recognized so i mentioned them to make the thread straight forward. But thanks

 

[Wilko]

... It seems all a bit backward if you ask me how can you be unqualified and sign work off? but maybe there is truth in what i am being told...

If I understand correctly, to do electrical work in accord with BS7671 one needs to be competent. So the qualification is "competence". What is competence, I hear you ask? Being assessed and accepted by a Competent Persons Scheme is one measure perhaps ( ). I can't speak for the Nice Guys, but with my mob they judge competence for EICR is shown when you have practical evidences and a training qualification (2391 for example).

 

[Sparky10]

Same reason to take any course, to improve your understanding of a particular subject and to be able to prove that to others.

You can test and issue certificates with a possession of basic competence, the kind that is gained during normal training to be an electrician.

Joining a competent persons scheme would facilitate the notification of work to building control.

Depends what you mean by "sign off"

The 2391 is the current course code used by City and guilds. It's basically the 2394/5 renamed and made open book examinations.

yes doing any course would improve your understanding, but my question is why would you pay & take the 2391-52( i believe it is now) and still be unable to walk into someone's property and issue a certificate that adequate enough? I believe you should be allowed to be Part of these schemes without having the 2391

 

[Anthony S]

One example of the point of the 2391 is that when big Electrical companies look to take on electricians to carry out inspection and testing on large projects, commercial/industrial they tend to only employ sparks with it.

I've just been on a large industrial warehouse carrying out a periodic and it was 2391, 17th edition JIB Approved Gold card holders only.

 

[Sparky10]

If I understand correctly, to do electrical work in accord with BS7671 one needs to be competent. So the qualification is "competence". What is competence, I hear you ask? Being assessed and accepted by a Competent Persons Scheme is one measure perhaps ( ). I can't speak for the Nice Guys, but with my mob they judge competence for EICR is shown when you have practical evidences and a training qualification (2391 for example).

Hi Wilko, it is my understanding you do not even need 2391 to be part of these competent schemes, Its something i have just been told (after booking my testing course) then being told if i want to join these schemes i have to be assessed AGAIN (surely showing them my 2391 would of been enough) and then another fee to join.

 

[MDJ]

Your 2391 will prove competence, while the NICEIC will.......no better not dont want to be banned this early into my return.

You won't be able to help yourself, it's in your blood lol

 

[Andy78]

yes doing any course would improve your understanding, but my question is why would you pay & take the 2391-52( i believe it is now) and still be unable to walk into someone's property and issue a certificate that adequate enough? I believe you should be allowed to be Part of these schemes without having the 2391

You CAN issue a certificate for your work with or without testing and inspection quals, and with or without scheme membership. Like I said it's notifying work that is made easier with scheme membership.

 

[Sparky10]

One example of the point of the 2391 is that when big Electrical companies look to take on electricians to carry out inspection and testing on large projects, commercial/industrial they tend to only employ sparks with it.

I've just been on a large industrial warehouse carrying out a periodic and it was 2391, 17th edition JIB Approved Gold card holders only.

You are right as only my job only approved 2391 testers can test (fully understand why) but it seems silly how this guy would need to be assessed again if he wanted to be part of the NIC...

 

[Andy78]

You are right as only my job only approved 2391 testers can test (fully understand why) but it seems silly how this guy would need to be assessed again if he wanted to be part of the NIC...

Scheme assessment is nothing like qualification assessment, it's a world away in terms of thoroughness and detail.

 

[Sparky10]

One example of the point of the 2391 is that when big Electrical companies look to take on electricians to carry out inspection and testing on large projects, commercial/industrial they tend to only employ sparks with it.

I've just been on a large industrial warehouse carrying out a periodic and it was 2391, 17th edition JIB Approved Gold card holders only.

You are right as only my job only approved 2391 testers can test (fully understand why) but it seems silly how this guy would need to be assessed again if he wanted to be part of the NIC...

You CAN issue a certificate for your work with or without testing and inspection quals, and with or without scheme membership. Like I said it's notifying work that is made easier with scheme membership.

As i am not part of any scheme i have been told if i issue a certificate i then have to pay Building control a massive about to come out and sign it off. (dont know how true this is)

 

[Sparky10]

Scheme assessment is nothing like qualification assessment, it's a world away in terms of thoroughness and detail.

I 100% agree mate, Personally i think you should need your 2391 in order to be part of these schemes. Shocking how people with less qualifications and experience can Sign off notifiable work, They don't even need to be fully qualified again the "competence" work comes into effect

 

[Anthony S]

I 100% agree mate, Personally i think you should need your 2391 in order to be part of these schemes. Shocking how people with less qualifications and experience can Sign off notifiable work, They don't even need to be fully qualified again the "competence" work comes into effect

Keep away from domestic installers and you won't have worry about it lol

 

[Andy78]

As i am not part of any scheme i have been told if i issue a certificate i then have to pay Building control a massive about to come out and sign it off. (dont know how true this is)

Certification required by BS7671 and notification are different and quite separate things. Yes if not in a scheme then you need to contact building control and pay a fee. Not all work is notifiable though.

I 100% agree mate, Personally i think you should need your 2391 in order to be part of these schemes. Shocking how people with less qualifications and experience can Sign off notifiable work, They don't even need to be fully qualified again the "competence" work comes into effect

This is only in line with legal requirements with having to be competent to be able to test and inspect electrical work. You'll probably find that the schemes will require testing quals if you want them to vouch for your periodic inspection work, or for full scope membership.

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

in lieu of the 2391 the niceic/elecsa offer there own online knowledge assessment that supposedly covers the same sort of questions you get in the 2391 exams. if you apply to join without the 2391 they get you to do this to cover the level 3 requirements,its open book with your books at home on the laptop. a mate did it when they first started offering it, he joined elecsa but its offered to both schemes. from what I know its not too difficult. thing is city and guilds have a sort of monopoly and there is nothing illegal in nic offering there own courses via another company if the content is deemed to be equivalent in knowledge and skill requirements. free market rules and all that. thats why you have eal courses and city and guilds etc...
If you have been on another scheme for 2 years+ then you need nothing elese to join other than your 17th and insurance to get in.

 

[Dillb]

You won't be able to help yourself, it's in your blood lol

Whose gonna be first me or you?

 

[Pete999]

Your 2391 will prove competence, while the NICEIC will.......no better not dont want to be banned this early into my return.

The NICEIC what Dillb? no one will ban you honest

 

[Dillb]

I will hold off for a while, before I decide to unleash on how there just a nasty tax on our industry.

 

[Pete999]

Whose gonna be first me or you?

Ive been a regular Dillb wheras you are just back so I guess it's down to you Mate, go on you know you want to, spit it out Mate, it wil stick in your throat other wise, I have often said the scams are a waste, and should be reorganised into something worth paying for.

 

[Pete999]

I will hold off for a while, before I decide to unleash on how there just a nasty tax on our industry.

Well they are aren't they as are all the others, come on Dillb man up

 

[Dillb]

Ive been a regular Dillb wheras you are just back so I guess it's down to you Mate, go on you know you want to, spit it out Mate, it wil stick in your throat other wise, I have often said the scams are a waste, and should be reorganised into something worth paying for.

It’s all old stuff that has been done to death in the past on here, it’s time we stood up to these scams and actually made the proactive. Just briefly looking over the forum it’s NIC this NIC that, we don’t worm to there standards we work to the current Regs yet you would think of it weren’t for these scamming folks we wouldn’t have a industry.

I won’t go on but you get the jist of it.

 

[Dillb]

in lieu of the 2391 the niceic/elecsa offer there own online knowledge assessment that supposedly covers the same sort of questions you get in the 2391 exams. if you apply to join without the 2391 they get you to do this to cover the level 3 requirements,its open book with your books at home on the laptop. a mate did it when they first started offering it, he joined elecsa but its offered to both schemes. from what I know its not too difficult. thing is city and guilds have a sort of monopoly and there is nothing illegal in nic offering there own courses via another company if the content is deemed to be equivalent in knowledge and skill requirements. free market rules and all that. thats why you have eal courses and city and guilds etc...
If you have been on another scheme for 2 years+ then you need nothing elese to join other than your 17th and insurance to get in.

The thing is the City and Guilds version was renown for being difficult and having a low pass rate meaning you had to work hard to get it. I can’t speak for the new version or the old 2394/5, but they must of had some difficulty in passing them. Now it seems to be getting easier with a open book exam wether it because they are being pressured by the scams or because people genuinely were struggling under the older exams due to the saturation by the so called training companies.

 

[Pete999]

The thing is the City and Guilds version was renown for being difficult and having a low pass rate meaning you had to work hard to get it. I can’t speak for the new version or the old 2394/5, but they must of had some difficulty in passing them. Now it seems to be getting easier with a open book exam wether it because they are being pressured by the scams or because people genuinely were struggling under the older exams due to the saturation by the so called training companies.

Think I have found a Soul Mate Dillb, a man after my own heart, get the impression it was scams that pressed for the dumb down, I did the 2391 when it first came to fruition, and it wasn't easy, it was bloody difficult, not many passed on my course, your points are spot on imo.

 

[Dillb]

That’s it, since the scams to light everything seems to have been watered down, these Get rich companies sorry my mistake I meant Electrical Trainee training companies have a lot to answer for too. Yet we seem to just sit back and allow it too continue, 2-3 years ago there was a mass influx of members on here who had gone down that route. Yet when challenged on here we were told if we couldn’t answer their query not to reply at all. I genuinely don’t know what members are like on here now but hopefully we can at least express our opinions and tell people they need to maybe get more help when out of there depth.

I initially joined this forum first time round as I felt I had something to offer to it and will help anyone in any way I can, but if they can’t take that advice on board then what chance do we have?

 

[Strima]

Yet we seem to just sit back and allow it too continue, 2-3 years ago there was a mass influx of members on here who had gone down that route. Yet when challenged on here we were told if we couldn’t answer their query not to reply at all. I genuinely don’t know what members are like on here now but hopefully we can at least express our opinions and tell people they need to maybe get more help when out of there depth.

I'm still here asking stupid questions... Welcome back mate...

 

[Dillb]

I'm still here asking stupid questions... Welcome back mate...

I will be in good company then

 

[JAWS]

I thought the 2391 qualification on a scheme put you on the approved contractors list rather then the domestic installer list.

 

[Dillb]

I thought the 2391 qualification on a scheme put you on the approved contractors list rather then the domestic installer list.

No No No No, the difference between either a “approved contractor” or “domestic installer” is £££££££££ Sadly that is what speaks loudest to the scams and nothing else.

For the record there is no difference between either of them you either a electrician or your not, yet again the scams have created a nothing job to make people sound more qualified than they actually are, I have even been asked if I am a domestic installer before even though they knew I was a electrician by trade.

 

[Dillb]

My apologises massive, didn’t realise you was a trainee when I posted. Please don’t take my post as a dig at you.

 

[JAWS]

My apologises massive, didn’t realise you was a trainee when I posted. Please don’t take my post as a dig at you.

That's absolutely fine Dillb

 

[The Ghost]

I did the 2394/95 with total 11 hours practical and written answers to a set of questions in sections. I am with Stroma (did a year with NIC did not and would not renew) and they do things differently to NIC. If you want to be domestic installer thats one set of requirements and exams. If you want to say you do EICR you must have extra insurance (P.I. £250.000) and 2391 or 2394/95 or they will not "grade you" for that. So I joined the scheme purely to do domestic but mostly do light commercial. So for me it makes sense to join a scheme and have 2394/95. And don't get me started with NIC! Very rude bunch of people, like I am going to pay their exorbitant fees with absolutely no conception of customer service!

 

[Deleted member 26818]

A little bit of history:
The 2391 was introduced by C&G at the behest of the NICEIC as a qualification to be required to be a QS.
As so many failed, the NICEIC dropped it as a requirement.

 

[PEG]

A little bit of history:
The 2391 was introduced by C&G at the behest of the NICEIC as a qualification to be required to be a QS.
As so many failed, the NICEIC dropped it as a requirement.

Yep,i have kept some relevant paperwork,from moons back,where the schemes mentioned,had the 2391 as a "requirement",and a few years later,the blurb stated members should confirm that they are "working towards the 2391"

It would be equally comforting to know,that the surgeon,about to do an eye operation,is "working towards his qualifications"

 

[westward10]

Most years I am asked by these people if I am thinking of doing the 2391, I just stare at them. I have been a QS and still am under the NICEIC ( no longer), ECA and ELESCA and have no intention of furthering my knowledge with it. Having a 2391 means nowt and in have met plenty of people with it who I would deem totally incompetent to do testing.

 

[Midwest]

No No No No, the difference between either a “approved contractor” or “domestic installer” is £££££££££ Sadly that is what speaks loudest to the scams and nothing else.

For the record there is no difference between either of them you either a electrician or your not, yet again the scams have created a nothing job to make people sound more qualified than they actually are, I have even been asked if I am a domestic installer before even though they knew I was a electrician by trade.

Not quite true. NICEIC has domestic installer & approved contractor, whereas Elecsa's has just approved contractor, in their 'Part P' scheme. I think the fees for the domestic installer & Elecsa approved contractor are similar, whereas NIC approved contractor is some more ££'s.

By the way on another subject, I did my electrical apprenticeship in the late 60's, and it was really hard. Not like easy peezy ones that turned up later. I have a wealth of knowledge, that simply surpasses all those that have done their training in the last few years. There's nothing you can tell me about anything, electrically speaking. I don't know why some people bother trying to learn how to be an electrician, 'cos they are on loosing wicket compared to me.

 

[Rpa07]

Or perhaps this one @Midwest!
Ps it’s nothing personal!

 

[Midwest]

Its more like this

Sorry that's telectrix.

This is me

 

[Ian1981]

Most years I am asked by these people if I am thinking of doing the 2391, I just stare at them. I have been a QS and still am under the NICEIC ( no longer), ECA and ELESCA and have no intention of furthering my knowledge with it. Having a 2391 means nowt and in have met plenty of people with it who I would deem totally incompetent to do testing.

If your boss said ‘“hey if I pay for you to do the 2391 will you do it “ would you still not consider it tho?
Might learn something

 

[Ian1981]

Not quite true. NICEIC has domestic installer & approved contractor, whereas Elecsa's has just approved contractor, in their 'Part P' scheme. I think the fees for the domestic installer & Elecsa approved contractor are similar, whereas NIC approved contractor is some more ££'s.

By the way on another subject, I did my electrical apprenticeship in the late 60's, and it was really hard. Not like easy peezy ones that turned up later. I have a wealth of knowledge, that simply surpasses all those that have done their training in the last few years. There's nothing you can tell me about anything, electrically speaking. I don't know why some people bother trying to learn how to be an electrician, 'cos they are on loosing wicket compared to me.

As Ali G would say
Respect!!!

 

[westward10]

If your boss said ‘“hey if I pay for you to do the 2391 will you do it “ would you still not consider it tho?
Might learn something

Maybe and he probably would.

 

[Noaksie]

All the trade bidies "competent persons schemes" are more about membership fees than checking competence unfortunately. The original C&G 2391 inspection and testing exam was not an open book exam. It had a bad name due to the low pass rate. However it did sort the men from the boys!
I passed the original 2391 exam. It was hard work but in my view worthwhile. Going through the motions of the testing not really understanding the tests being carried out is a waste of time.
My view is to test and sign off works as compliant with the regs. Should require passing this exam. I have heard the new version is watered down which is a retrograde step in my opinion.

 

[Noaksie]

All the trade bidies "competent persons schemes" are more about membership fees than checking competence unfortunately. The original C&G 2391 inspection and testing exam was not an open book exam. It had a bad name due to the low pass rate. However it did sort the men from the boys!
I passed the original 2391 exam. It was hard work but in my view worthwhile. Going through the motions of the testing not really understanding the tests being carried out is a waste of time.
My view is to test and sign off works as compliant with the regs. Should require passing this exam. I have heard the new version is watered down which is a retrograde step in my opinion.

 

[Noaksie]

All the trade bidies "competent persons schemes" are more about membership fees than checking competence unfortunately. The original C&G 2391 inspection and testing exam was not an open book exam. It had a bad name due to the low pass rate. However it did sort the men from the boys!
I passed the original 2391 exam. It was hard work but in my view worthwhile. Going through the motions of the testing not really understanding the tests being carried out is a waste of time.
My view is to test and sign off works as compliant with the regs. Should require passing this exam. I have heard the new version is watered down which is a retrograde step in my opinion.