Bonding dilemma

[Biff61]

my experience with other nations makes me even more aware of the requirement for correct earthing and bonding. On one install in South Sudan I buried over $6000 of solid copper rods and bare 35mm copper earth strap in charcoal, salt and bentonite to ensure I complied with the regs, I never compromise on safety.I ensure that any upgrade or new install is done according to 17th Edition.That is why I am employed, to ensure best practice and standards are met, there have been too many injuries, deaths and property damage caused by poor methods and no standards applied.
what I'm trying to get across is this,if you turn up at a customers premises you are not legally obliged to immediately fix the incorrect work of others, no one can hold a gun to your head and say you must do this or else, you have the right to walk away.
The requirement for bonding is sacrosanct I agree and it must be done.
However, if you do take on the job, then you must do it for your installation to comply, no ifs or buts about it.

 

[Darkwood]

my experience with other nations makes me even more aware of the requirement for correct earthing and bonding. On one install in South Sudan I buried over $6000 of solid copper rods and bare 35mm copper earth strap in charcoal, salt and bentonite to ensure I complied with the regs, I never compromise on safety.I ensure that any upgrade or new install is done according to 17th Edition.That is why I am employed, to ensure best practice and standards are met, there have been too many injuries, deaths and property damage caused by poor methods and no standards applied.
what I'm trying to get across is this,if you turn up at a customers premises you are not legally obliged to immediately fix the incorrect work of others, no one can hold a gun to your head and say you must do this or else, you have the right to walk away.
The requirement for bonding is sacrosanct I agree and it must be done.
However, if you do take on the job, then you must do it for your installation to comply, no ifs or buts about it.

I never disputed that point and have always agreed ... if the customer is not willing to pay or refuses to have it done then just walk away .. If you go ahead and do any work the you will be required to address any earthingbonding issues that are considered a hazard before you sign off your work.

 

[Octopus]

I never disputed that point and have always agreed ... if the customer is not willing to pay or refuses to have it done then just walk away ..If you go aheadand do any work the you will be required to address any earthingbonding issues that are considered a hazard before you sign off your work.

And the number of prosecutions for failing to do this this are?

 

[Darkwood]

And the number of prosecutions for failing to do this this are?

This is an empty point you make, yes the circumstances to all come together and a fatality to occur are very rare but never the less they exist in a big enough risk catagory to warrant the IET to make it part of the regulations, where ever we see regulations of such nature then there is usually a valid reason for their implementation, I have seen 1 customer and 1 plumber receive nasty shocks off pipework due to floating PD in my 25yr career that could have been avoided but through lack of compliance or aged install it was the case they were put at risk...

I sleep well at night knowing I have made sure the earthing set-up is at least functional if existing or upgraded if substandard, it does not loose me work and I've never really been turned down because I have shown it needs doing, anyone with good communication skills would not have a problem steering the customer to having the extra work done.

 

[Octopus]

This is an empty point you make, yes the circumstances to all come together and a fatality to occur are very rare but never the less they exist in a big enough risk catagory to warrant the IET to make it part of the regulations, where ever we see regulations of such nature then there is usually a valid reason for their implementation, I have seen 1 customer and 1 plumber receive nasty shocks off pipework due to floating PD in my 25yr career that could have been avoided but through lack of compliance or aged install it was the case they were put at risk...

I sleep well at night knowing I have made sure the earthing set-up is at least functional if existing or upgraded if substandard, it does not loose me work and I've never really been turned down because I have shown it needs doing, anyone with good communication skills would not have a problem steering the customer to having the extra work done.

??????

 

[Darkwood]

??????

Sorry thought it was clear what I meant... when I say empty point I meant it should bear no relevance on the debate as to how many people get caught and prosecuted be it 0 or 100's, its about been professional and doing the right thing on a matter which is about the safety of your customers and the integrity of the earthing system.

The lack of prosecutions can be down to many issues but mainly its the small number of fatalities in the first place plus the difficulty of proving what may have been a short lived fault be it consumer or network that may have contributed to the death.

In 2010 in the UK the number of shock related fatalities in domestic was about 20 so out of a population of about 70million this is exceptionally small yet 2.5million are documented to have received a shock of which 350,000 was serious with burns etc... the chance that not addressing the lack of bonding in a house ending you up in court is smaller than your chances of winning the lottery but the point is its not a matter of whether your risking ending up in court its about the duty of care you have for the safety of your customer, its an attitude to your work ethic here not an issue of the risk you might end up before a jury, thats why I said your point you made was an empty one.

Looking at the stats Im pretty confident that out of the 2.5million there's going to be some that are attributed to missing equipotential bonding.

Yes I may be a bit of a stickler on this particular point raised but it not like missing the sleeving off you switch wires is it ... its the safety net of the install.

 

[Deleted account]

It gets a bit tedious every time I have to explain to a customer the need to have eqipotential bonding fitted before I can do any work on there premises. Becoming a lecturer and explaining why is unfortunately nessisary if you want to secure the job.

However I hear tell of an amazing customer leaflet that exists for the customer explaining all this. I would love to get my hands on one. If I produced this leaflet it would save a little of the explaining and prove I wasn't lying and trying it on just to make a fast buck ( pound Stirling).

does anyone out there know of this or even better give me a link so I can see if for myself. I've tried the nic and iet sites with no luck.

 

[telectrix]

was from the electric al safety council, or somesuch. i tried to order some, but they say they are no longer available.

 

[Deleted account]

was from the electric al safety council, or somesuch. i tried to order some, but they say they are no longer available.

Bugger

thanks anyway

 

[Jonspark]

It gets a bit tedious every time I have to explain to a customer the need to have eqipotential bonding fitted before I can do any work on there premises. Becoming a lecturer and explaining why is unfortunately nessisary if you want to secure the job.

However I hear tell of an amazing customer leaflet that exists for the customer explaining all this. I would love to get my hands on one. If I produced this leaflet it would save a little of the explaining and prove I wasn't lying and trying it on just to make a fast buck ( pound Stirling).

does anyone out there know of this or even better give me a link so I can see if for myself. I've tried the nic and iet sites with no luck.

print a copy of this and carry it with you to show customers
http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/mediafile/100126678/best-Practice-Guide-4.pdf

 

[Deleted account]

print a copy of this and carry it with you to show customers
http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/mediafile/100126678/best-Practice-Guide-4.pdf

Nice guide and something a will print off, I fact I just have. But I was looking for something I bit more specific and basic for the customer.

thanks for the response. Really appreciated but does anyone else out there have anything.

 

[Jonspark]

Nice guide and something a will print off, I fact I just have. But I was looking for something I bit more specific and basic for the customer.

thanks for the response. Really appreciated but does anyone else out there have anything.

just show em page 12!

 

[Engineer54]

On one install in South Sudan I buried over $6000 of solid copper rods and bare 35mm copper earth strap in charcoal, salt and bentonite to ensure I complied with the regs

So what sort of installation are we talking about here?? I hope it's a profitable concern, and worth the amount of money you've spent on creating this earth field??

Are you saying here that you mixed Salt, charcoal and Bentonite together??
Were these solid copper rods you talk about, direct driven into the ground??

 

[HandySparks]

Nice guide and something a will print off, I fact I just have. But I was looking for something I bit more specific and basic for the customer.

thanks for the response. Really appreciated but does anyone else out there have anything.

This page is similar to their printed leaflet:
Earthing and Bonding | Electrical Safety First

 

[GEOFF S]

Hope this helps

Protection against shock - IET Electrical

Cheers

 

[Leesparkykent]

I give these to the customer.

 

[Darkwood]

Looking at the links above they all support what I've been trying to get across from the off....

That you have a responsibilty to check that the earthing and bonding is adequate where required and must be rectified if you are doing any work no matter how minor.
That the purpose of Equipotential bonding is to remove any PD between adjacent conductive parts and not to carry fault currents (The circuit earthing conductor is designed for that purpose), although it may do so in the event that its a parallel path or the loss of a network Neutral in a PME/TNCS set-up.

All in all when it is required it is part of your duty to include it in your work if it is not adequate or is missing, failure to do so means your work cannot comply and you have failed in your primary duty of ensuring the safety of the install.

 

[Knobhead]

On the note of bonding ... and reminded me by Tonys csa of the copper pipe....consider a commercial or industrial set-up with a TNCS supply that would to reg's require a 50mm earthing conductor to ensure any network faults could piggy back the pipework if necessary - if point of bonding etc is attached or the incoming service is small in nature then the pipe itself is not sufficient to meet the required size - what to do?

This is from experience:

Industrial installations with a high gas consumption will be using steel pipe. It’s rare to find copper installed.

Everywhere I’ve worked a copper jumper would be fitted across every flange joint. Not just for gas but anything that could ignite. Electrical bonding was a secondary concern, static was our enemy. I’ve had some monumental expositions due to fitters not replacing the continuity jumpers. The plant was designed to withstand them but it was frightening non the less.

As for bonding back to the MET. A minimum of a 50mm[SUP]2[/SUP] conductor to both ends of the feed pipe.

 

[Darkwood]

This is from experience:

Industrial installations with a high gas consumption will be using steel pipe. It’s rare to find copper installed.

Everywhere I’ve worked a copper jumper would be fitted across every flange joint. Not just for gas but anything that could ignite. Electrical bonding was a secondary concern, static was our enemy. I’ve had some monumental expositions due to fitters not replacing the continuity jumpers. The plant was designed to withstand them but it was frightening non the less.

As for bonding back to the MET. A minimum of a 50mm[SUP]2[/SUP] conductor to both ends of the feed pipe.

The scenario I was thinking of was related to one of my customers 'Industrial' .. they had high electrical usage but very low gas and water and the water incoming was domestic size the gas was larger but at the other end of the building, so I bonded a 50mm earth to a 16mm water pipe on a tncs set-up this is where I scratch my balding head and think a Network fault would just destroy that pipe if it chose that path but yet nothing in any regulations to account for this scenario.....

 

[Knobhead]

The scenario I was thinking of was related to one of my customers 'Industrial' .. they had high electrical usage but very low gas and water and the water incoming was domestic size the gas was larger but at the other end of the building, so I bonded a 50mm earth to a 16mm water pipe on a tncs set-up this is where I scratch my balding head and think a Network fault would just destroy that pipe if it chose that path but yet nothing in any regulations to account for this scenario.....

OK I see your point now. Unfortunately it’s yet another example of how the IET recommendations are impractical or plain and simply wrong.

A 50mm[SUP]2[/SUP] bond to a 22mm pipe isn’t exceeding the CSA of the pipe which is 53.28mm[SUP]2[/SUP]. A 15mm pipe and we’re in a different ball game, 50mm[SUP]2[/SUP] bonding to a pipe of 35.69mm[SUP]2[/SUP] CSA is plainly ridiculous.

Unfortunately the IET comic book doesn’t allow for common sense to be applied.

 

[Knobhead]

BTW, the above is only really applicable to internal faults. Up until the 16[SUP]th[/SUP] (I think) it was a requirement to fit a jumper across the meter. That’s going back to pre alkathene gas supplies and there was a distinct possibility of a PD across the meter due the pipe unions.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Pretty sure that the jumper cable is still used today.
Or supposed to be.

 

[Geordie Spark]

BTW, the above is only really applicable to internal faults. Up until the 16[SUP]th[/SUP] (I think) it was a requirement to fit a jumper across the meter. That’s going back to pre alkathene gas supplies and there was a distinct possibility of a PD across the meter due the pipe unions.

Yes, the permanent link between the incoming and outgoing pipes to the meter has been done away with and the bond is now fitted to the outlet side of the meter only BUT when the meter is removed we are "supposed" to fit a temporary bond between the incoming & outgoing pipes like this >>>

so the question that I can't get my head around is WHY did we have to get rid of the permanent link in the first place??

 

[Deleted account]

Yes, the permanent link between the incoming and outgoing pipes to the meter has been done away with and the bond is now fitted to the outlet side of the meter only BUT when the meter is removed we are "supposed" to fit a temporary bond between the incoming & outgoing pipes like this >>>

so the question that I can't get my head around is WHY did we have to get rid of the permanent link in the first place??

Possibly because the gas supply is not recognised as a route to earth. The only reason we bond to the meter at all is for equal potential within the building. In the good old days I believe you could use the gas pipe as the main earth route.

 

[davesparks]

Possibly because the gas supply is not recognised as a route to earth. The only reason we bond to the meter at all is for equal potential within the building. In the good old days I believe you could use the gas pipe as the main earth route.

The earliest reference I have is from the 1930s and at that time it was not permitted to use a gas service as an earth connection. It was required that a towns metal water service be used as an earth connection though.

 

[Deleted account]

The earliest reference I have is from the 1930s and at that time it was not permitted to use a gas service as an earth connection. It was required that a towns metal water service be used as an earth connection though.

Wow impressed. Where did you get the 1930's ref.

 

[Geordie Spark]

Possibly because the gas supply is not recognised as a route to earth. The only reason we bond to the meter at all is for equal potential within the building. In the good old days I believe you could use the gas pipe as the main earth route.

Yes I understand it was often the route to earth as was the water pipe as well.

What I don't understand is we used to link the inlet and the outlet pipes together with a bit of green wire but now we don't because we're told the meter provides the continuity so if we have to remove a meter we are required to temporarily link them with this temporary bond before doing so and leave it in place until after the meter is re-instated.

So WHY did we stop linking the inlet & outlet in the first place?? :thinking::confused5:

 

[davesparks]

Wow impressed. Where did you get the 1930's ref.

Stubbs electrical encyclopaedia

 

[Deleted account]

Yes I understand it was often the route to earth as was the water pipe as well.

What I don't understand is we used to link the inlet and the outlet pipes together with a bit of green wire but now we don't because we're told the meter provides the continuity so if we have to remove a meter we are required to temporarily link them with this temporary bond before doing so and leave it in place until after the meter is re-instated.

So WHY did we stop linking the inlet & outlet in the first place?? :thinking::confused5:

yeah. I get your point. It wouldn't be much hardship to do.

There is probably a very intelligent reason why. It just needs a very intelligent member to let us know.:conehead: Any out there?

 

[Geordie Spark]

yeah. I get your point. It wouldn't be much hardship to do.

There is probably a very intelligent reason why. It just needs a very intelligent member to let us know.:conehead: Any out there?

The debate on that could easily run to 200 pages!!

But getting back to the gas thing, it's drummed into the gas blokes to ALWAYS fit that temporary bond before removing the meter and only take it off once the meter is refitted.

When it's assessment time, the assessor will want to see that we have that bond in our toolbox and a spare manometer hose - among other things.

 

[Deleted account]

The debate on that could easily run to 200 pages!!

But getting back to the gas thing, it's drummed into the gas blokes to ALWAYS fit that temporary bond before removing the meter and only take it off once the meter is refitted.

When it's assessment time, the assessor will want to see that we have that bond in our toolbox and a spare manometer hose - among other things.

Yes I've been thru the gas safe course and on my pre assessment assesment I forgot the bonding clamps. Instant fail:nonod: so I understand the bond is important whilst removing meter.

 

[Geordie Spark]

Yes I've been thru the gas safe course and on my pre assessment assesment I forgot the bonding clamps. Instant fail:nonod: so I understand the bond is important whilst removing meter.

Oh dear!!

You won't to that again!

I was pulled for not having a spare manometer hose so I cut the 1 metre long one I had in half & all was good.

 

[jonny705]

Hey this is an interesting debate/thread :0

Could anyone tell me why we don't bond metal kitchen sinks no more, when the Kitchen has the most electrical appliances in the house and is always inevitably near water?

I asked my lecturer years ago, and he said it was dropped because a line fault at the C/B could introduce a 240v potential at sink- although never could quite get my head round it!

I have had lots of houses with no Earth in Lighting circuit and they want me to fit Stainless class 1 Fittings, they simply don't want to know about the earth problem!

Also if Bonding from (normally tap) needs to be enlarged, if its round front/back of house therefore cable itself is dollar , let lone potential disruption of decorating its like they think you are deceiving them (been here 1-100yrs etc and never had a problem just do it, no worries they say!).

I simply wont do it! my altitude is if, they electrocuted themselves if a fault occurred they would sue the life out of me!

If I got took to court , is it not correct, that the prosecution would use the Current IEE regs to prove my incompetence in the fact that I, even knowing about it myself (competent person) , chose to ignore it?

Saying that they didn't want pay for uprated bonding/new earthing , (although i told them) and the fact that I have changed a old fuse board to a RCD equipped one would be my only form of defence, and I for one would not like to rely on that!

 

[Deleted account]

Hey this is an interesting debate/thread :0

Could anyone tell me why we don't bond metal kitchen sinks no more, when the Kitchen has the most electrical appliances in the house and is always inevitably near water?

I asked my lecturer years ago, and he said it was dropped because a line fault at the C/B could introduce a 240v potential at sink- although never could quite get my head round it!

I have had lots of houses with no Earth in Lighting circuit and they want me to fit Stainless class 1 Fittings, they simply don't want to know about the earth problem!

Also if Bonding from (normally tap) needs to be enlarged, if its round front/back of house therefore cable itself is dollar , let lone potential disruption of decorating its like they think you are deceiving them (been here 1-100yrs etc and never had a problem just do it, no worries they say!).

I simply wont do it! my altitude is if, they electrocuted themselves if a fault occurred they would sue the life out of me!

If I got took to court , is it not correct, that the prosecution would use the Current IEE regs to prove my incompetence in the fact that I, even knowing about it myself (competent person) , chose to ignore it?

Saying that they didn't want pay for uprated bonding/new earthing , (although i told them) and the fact that I have changed a old fuse board to a RCD equipped one would be my only form of defence, and I for one would not like to rely on that!

You really should have done the bonding before the CU replacement. Ok maybe you didn't know it wasn't there before the you started the change as far as I am concerned its a mistake you have made therefore you need to put it right at your expence if customer refuses to pay.

I have learnt from my mistakes in the past by not doing a thorough enough pre works check and been in exactly this position. I explained to customer who point blank refused to pay any extra, so I did it anyway at no extra expence. The customer then realising I wasn't trying it on actually offered to pay.
i asked for material costs only as it was my mistake I hadn't spotted the problem prior to work. I have since been back to that customers house and done further works.

everone happy and regs fulfilled :smile5:

 

[Deleted account]

Sorry Jonny 705, I've just re read your thread and realise you weren't quoting yourself. You were in fact giving unacceptable scenarios. Spot on totally agree.

Will endevour our to read posts properly from now on.:dunce2:

 

[Knobhead]

Yes, the permanent link between the incoming and outgoing pipes to the meter has been done away with and the bond is now fitted to the outlet side of the meter only BUT when the meter is removed we are "supposed" to fit a temporary bond between the incoming & outgoing pipes like this >>>

so the question that I can't get my head around is WHY did we have to get rid of the permanent link in the first place??

When jointing UG cables even though it isolated and earthed at each end a bonding jumper must be used on the armours and lead. The old cables weren’t too bad as the hessian outer serving allowed tray currents to leak away. The modern PVC sheathed cables must have the jumper fitted before cutting in to the cables. There’s a distinct possibility of circulating currents which can reach dangerous amounts.


Just going back to using the steel gas pipe as earth:
The gas board re-supplied our road using alkathene and left the old pipe in situe. So while I’m digging a new drain manhole I found it, going straight though where I was building the dammed manhole. A phone call to NWGas to find out if it’s still live, they couldn’t find the records, their document store had burnt down. Phoned them back a bit later to tell them they could mark it as dead, I’d put the saw through it.

Then I had a wavy brain, it wasn’t far from one of the earth rods. Clean it up and weld a stud to it and tie it in to the earth nest. Can anyone can beat an 800’ long electrode for a house?