Discuss Have I done this wrong?! in the Solar PV Forum | Solar Panels Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

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kate.harrison1

Hi,
I have followed this forum now since last autumn and wonder whether some of you experts out there can advise me?
I had a system installed last October (20th) as follows:

8x Sanyo HIT-N240SE10 on east facing roof and 8 on a west facing roof. Angle is about 35 degrees I think. The inverter is SMA 4000TL with twin trackers and east is in one, west in the other.

I have been monitoring generation since then and can report a total generation of 570 odd to date. I could give you exact monthly production figures but very roughly, Oct was about 65, Nov 75, Dec 55,
Jan 70, Feb 135 and March so far about 165

I had 4 quotes and all suggested an e/w system even though I do have a smallish south facing hip roof. When I had decided who I was going to use, a firm who had been installing solar since beore the birth of FITs, I pushed the question of the south facing roof but was told by all that because I would only get a maximum of 6 panels on it, it wasn't worth it. I was sold the advantages of the longer production day from the e/w and more panels and went ahead on that basis. I have no way of knowing whether I am on target to reach the predicted 2663 but I suspect that I am.

My issue is that, like all new customers of solar installations, I have become really boring and I am constantly looking at how much has been produced, where the sun is is etc. In my case, I am coming to the conclusion that I may actually have been better off having a smaller number of panels, say 12 or 6 south and 8 west and would have got higher output than I am getting from my 8 west and 8 east. It is true that at the moment, on sunny days, I am getting about 1Kw before 8am but shortly after that time, the sun is actually shining more directly onto my s facing roof than the east and I feel that 6 on there would get more than the 8 on the east as existing. The west seems to work pretty well.

My question to you guys is....with your access to Sunny Design and similar, could anyone tell me what the predicted output would be for 8 west and 6 south if it would even work that way with my inverter? Would the inverter be rendered overpowered if two panels were to be removed and will the twin trackers both work with an unequal no of panels? A guy down the road from me has a complete mixture of orientations; 6 south, 2 west and 4 east all on a Fronius inverter and it seems to work.

I just can't help thinking that I am not making the most of the available south facing roof which pretty much has direct sun for most of the day with no shading and that perhaps less might have been more in my case.

If models suggest that I am right, I might go back to my installer and ask them to move the panels on the east to the south (less 2). Do you think this would affect my FIT since the system technically would be smaller than the original?

It is very frustrating to sit here now observing the system in operation and wonder whether the advice I was given was more about selling and installing a bigger system than the predicted output. Clearly, It would have cost me less to buy and install 14 panels than 16 and there is likely to be a cost involved in moving them even if the existing inverter would cope. There was talk at one point of having two inverters, one for each string and I am beginning to wish I had gone for that now, would have been easier.

Any suggestions?

Please ask if there is any more info required.

Many thanks

Kate
 
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6 panels may be too little voltage for a 4000TL string.

Interestingly I have the same setup with cheaper suntech 240w panels and have similar production figures. Slightly higher overall which is surprising as you have Sanyo panels.

I am only comparing from December to now as I was installed end of Nov.

What is your location.i
 
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Your problem is that in winter, the sun rises in the SouthEast and sets in the SouthWest. The sun doesn't get to shine directly at the panels; it only shines from the side.

Once summer arrives, the sun will rise in the NorthEast and set in the NorthWest. Your panels and inverter should then be humming along very nicely indeed, as both orientations will catch several hours of good sun and provide you with a steady flow of power from dawn until dusk.

Eight panels facing South might generate:
Jan: 75kW
Feb: 100kW
Mar: 150kW
Apr: 200Kw
May: 225kW
Jun: 225kW
Jul: 225kW
Aug: 200kW
Sep: 175kW
Oct: 125kW
Nov: 100kW
Dec: 75kW


Eight panels facing East or West might generate (remember to double this if you have a set of eight facing in each direction):
Jan: 25kW
Feb: 50kW
Mar: 100kW
Apr: 150kW
May: 200kW
Jun: 200kW
Jul: 200kW
Aug: 175kW
Sep: 125kW
Oct: 75kW
Nov: 50kW
Dec: 25Kw
 
Thanks Powervan for your quick response. Actually, I know that both roofs are working because when I use Sunny Explorer and look at the spot values on the DC side I can see what each string is producing at any time. Unfortunately, you don't seem to be able to store or save the data. Basically, my graphs are a really good upside down bell shape and you can see that the east string is working in the morning, a bit of both in the middle and mostly west in the afternoon with a liitle from the east. The highest Kwp I have had so far is about 2.3 in total but the sun is still rising in the sky and I guess in a month or so, these figures will rise. Its just that I look at the south roof in the sun most of the day and think that 6x 240 would produce at least 1Kwp for a long time after the east has gone right down to about 2 or 300?!
 
Note that if your array faces in one direction only, it will tend to produce massive amounts of power for a short period and just "tick over" the rest of the time.

My 3.75kW panels face SouthEast and they produce to much power in the 9am-12noon time window, but not enough power in the afternoons because with the sun behind them, they are basically in shade.

If you get rid of your East-facing panels, you won't have such a high power yield early in the morning in summer.

8x East-facing and 8x West-facing might produce 2800kWh annually.
6x South-facing instead of 8x East-facing might actually drop that slightly to 2700kWh anually.

I'd think carefully before swapping an 8xEast & 8xWest split system to a 6xSouth & 8xWest split system. Your annual yield may be slightly lower and you may also not see such a steady flow of power throughout the day; missing out on early morning power to supply the power-hungry kettle, toaster and shower at breakfast.
 
I put this through PVGIS and 2kw (8 panels) on an east roof @ 35 degrees tilt should yeild about 8% more than 1.5kw (6 panels) on a south roof. Therefore you are better off leaving the system alone unless you want a little more production in the winter time.

Your production figures don't look that bad compared with PVGIS (on a central England location) but it depends on your location.

Note - East and West facing systems yeild especially badly in winter but make up for it in summer.
 
I will check these figures with mine and see how they compare, thanks. The thing is though, is there any reason why they couldn't have put 8 west and 6 south because the extra generation from the south orientation might well outweigh the extra hours of steady but relatively low generation? Would you be able to run the two options through design software and compare suggested production and compatibility with the inverter? or is there any DIY software that I could use to check it out.

My location is east herts by the way.

Thanks
 
Essex.

East west spot on.

3840kWp suntech stp240s
4000TL inverter

62.3 Dec
76.8 Jan
145.8 Feb
163 Mar (as of this morning)

Almost identical yield.
 
Thank you everybody!! I knew I could count on this forum for sensible advice. Hopefully, wstevew and I will be seeing outputs in the high twenties come June/July on bright days. The idea was that eventully we may put a couple of solar thermals on the limited space on the south facing roof and so, if I leave it as it is, I still have that option.

I will try to record the daily and monthly figures, especially for the last few days which have been sunny, although a bit hazy today and it looks like wstevew, you are a perfect comparison, near identical kit and location. Where are you in Essex as a matter of interest, we are in Hertford so not far from Essex borders.

Will post some figures later.

Cheers everyone
 
over the course of a year a west or east facing roof will lose about 20% to a south facing one, but, as has been suggested winter production tend to be poor.
The only thing I might have changed was to have a power one 3.6OUTD, but they were in very short supply in the autumn so may not have been an option.
 
virtually all of that 15-20% reduced output occurs in the 6 months of the year around winter, with very little difference in summer. As those 6 months only account for something like 30% of the overall annual output of a south facing system, this amounts to something like a 50% reduction in output in winter vs a south facing system.

In summer though you'll be getting high outputs for much longer through the day than south facing systems, with outputs fairly high from 7-8am and remaining relatively high til 7-8pm (depending on roof angle), whereas south facing systems won't be doing a vast amount until 9-10am.
 
Yes, he definitely only has one inverter cos I went to talk to him when I was first thinking of getting solar energy installed. I think now that I am a little more clued up about it all, I may call on him again and ask him exactly how his is set up and what his yield is. Bizarre isn't it to have 3 different orientations on one inverter unless it is capable of taking 3 separate strings. Does such a Fronius exist?
 
Yes, he definitely only has one inverter cos I went to talk to him when I was first thinking of getting solar energy installed. I think now that I am a little more clued up about it all, I may call on him again and ask him exactly how his is set up and what his yield is. Bizarre isn't it to have 3 different orientations on one inverter unless it is capable of taking 3 separate strings. Does such a Fronius exist?

Fronius inverters are capable of taking 3 strings (assuming you can find a panel with a low enough amperage) but it is not the number of strings but the number of MPP trackers that is important. You can have any number of strings on an inverter as long as the conditions of all the strings are close enough (number of panels, shading, orientation, pitch). When you change any of those variables then you really should use a seperate MPP tracker. In layman's terms, seperate MPP trackers effectively work as seperate inverters - allowing different strings to work independently of each other.

Going back to your question, I don't know of a Fronius inverter of that size which has more than one MPP tracker - which would suggest that your neighbour's system may be badly designed/installed.
 
The fronius is a single tracker so if he has three different orientations he will lose output as the whole system will consistently work to the lowest output.
HIs options are to use a 2 tracker inverter and accept some losses on one side or use a two tracker inverter with a smaller inverter for one of the other orientations, at which point it all gets a bit pricey!
 
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