Is this the end of 6 week wonders? New Domestic Gold Card Apprenticeship announced

[Electrics]

New Domestic Apprenticeship announced leading to Domestic Gold Card

Interesting.

Still as clear as mud how this will work but this is probably the thing we've all been waiting for.

Hopefully it will clear the waters and stop DIY Dave having a go - making a Gold Card the standard should make domestic electrics like Gas Safe where people will start to recognise that only those who hold a qualification should be touching them. The beauty of industrial/commercial work is it's extremely hard to get work in those sectors if you're not absolutely 'qualified' with a Gold Card. Some blokes even struggle when they have the qualifications but haven't served their time.

This change in the domestic sector will in turn drive up prices and help real electricians who charge real prices secure the work instead of someone quoting pittance to do a bodge.

What say you, board?

 

[Dustydazzler]

You will never stop DIY electrical work and you will never fully stop Dave the Builder from wiring up his own extension etc

The domestic sector is as bad as its ever been and PartPee made no difference what so ever given by what I see out in the real world. All it did was made my expenses go up in scam fees

 

[Electrics]

You will never stop DIY electrical work and you will never fully stop Dave the Builder from wiring up his own extension etc

The domestic sector is as bad as its ever been and PartPee made no difference what so ever given by what I see out in the real world. All it did was made my expenses go up in scam fees

Nobody is saying it will 'fully' stop it, but having a standard card that clients expect to see is a huge step forward, no?

All we need is an actual law saying it's illegal to touch electrics without the Gold Card and then 90% of the have-a-go competition is wiped out since most people don't like breaking the law.

Result is, prices go up since the majority of people left have had to pay for expensive training, certificates and cards and so will charge what they are worth instead of competing with someone who hasn't paid for anything and learnt his craft on youtube.

 

[IAmSparkytus!]

The beauty of industrial/commercial work is it's extremely hard to get work in those s

Not having a card might stop commercial electrical firms employing you but just like domestics, there will always be people carrying out commercial work who shouldn't be.

 

[snowhead]

As Dusty, it won't make a jot of difference.
And there couldn't be any law saying no-one can touch Domestic without a Gold card, what about all those already working without a gold Card.

 

[Electrics]

As Dusty, it won't make a jot of difference.
And there couldn't be any law saying no-one can touch Domestic without a Gold card, what about all those already working without a gold Card.

Course there could be. There's Gas Safe which is mandated in law. What's the difference?

Laws are just papers pushed through parliament by groups of men. They can make any law they want, all they have to do is agree that you need XYZ qualification to touch electric and make touching it otherwise illegal. Easy to do.

 

[Electrics]

Not having a card might stop commercial electrical firms employing you but just like domestics, there will always be people carrying out commercial work who shouldn't be.

It's much harder to get work in commercial without a Gold Card compared to domestic where literally anyone can just hawk for work.

If the 'standard' becomes a Gold Card for domestic work 6 week courses can't be a thing anymore. They mention in the video that the only other way of getting the card is an 'experienced worker' route which means you have to have experience or do an apprenticeship before you can get it.

That gets rid of almost 100% of those coming from short courses since the courses themselves will cease to offer that service. They will be forced to tell their customers that their courses no longer entitle them to carry out any electrical work and people ain't gonna pay £5k+ for a worthless course.

 

[loz2754]

Maybe it's a step in the right direction, but the new course is 3 years, at the end of which there would start to emerge these certified "domestic electricians".
Will there be any government sponsored advertising or public information videos to educate the general public of this new qualification?
What about all the short course candidates that have already been certified as domestic installers?
Will there ever be any move towards making it a legal requirement to only use certified domestic electricians?
Probably not...

 

[loz2754]

Course there could be. There's Gas Safe which is mandated in law. What's the difference?

Laws are just papers pushed through parliament by groups of men. They can make any law they want, all they have to do is agree that you need XYZ qualification to touch electric and make touching it otherwise illegal. Easy to do.

Then why hasn't it been done!

 

[Electrics]

Another interesting question is what happens to those who just do level 2 and 3 at college with no work experience...?

 

[Electrics]

Then why hasn't it been done!

Because the government is incompetent? I would have thought that was obvious.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Nobody is saying it will 'fully' stop it, but having a standard card that clients expect to see is a huge step forward, no?

All we need is an actual law saying it's illegal to touch electrics without the Gold Card and then 90% of the have-a-go competition is wiped out since most people don't like breaking the law.

Result is, prices go up since the majority of people left have had to pay for expensive training, certificates and cards and so will charge what they are worth instead of competing with someone who hasn't paid for anything and learnt his craft on youtube.

Will make zero difference in my experience of the past 20+ years doing domestic work.
I never get a home owner ask to see my city n guilds and NEVER get asked if I am part pee.

 

[mattg4321]

No customer has ever asked to see any of my qualifications. Not once.

 

[Electrics]

Will make zero difference in my experience of the past 20+ years doing domestic work.
I never get a home owner ask to see my city n guilds and NEVER get asked if I am part pee.

No customer has ever asked to see any of my qualifications. Not once.

The point is that most people are honest and if it's made illegal to do work without the card, most people will no longer carry out the work.

If those going on 6 week courses know they cannot legally touch any electric afterwards, they will likely choose a different career path.

There will always be a handful of people who will do whatever they want that's the nature of life, but most honest people will simply cease to touch electrics if it's made illegal to do so without a certain card or qualification. (Note i'm talking about those in the trade here, not have a go homeowners)

 

[SparkySy]

^^^^^ nor me not been asked once in the 22 years I have been in the electrical industry!
It saddens me to say that it will still make little difference to our trade!?

 

[Electrics]

^^^^^ nor me not been asked once in the 22 years I have been in the electrical industry!
It saddens me to say that it will still make little difference to our trade!?

You don't think most of those currently doing domestic electrics would cease to do so if it were made a criminal offence? At the very least they will get the qualifications this new thing demands or cease to carry out domestic work imo.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Remind me how many DIY Daves or Bob the Builders are doing porridge for breaching Part Pee ???

 

[Dustydazzler]

You don't think most of those currently doing domestic electrics would cease to do so if it were made a criminal offence?

NO Not a Chance , as the fee or fine will be so weak that they will take the risk anyway

 

[Electrics]

Remind me how many DIY Daves or Bob the Builders are doing porridge for breaching Part Pee ???

I would hazard a guess that most of those wanting to get into the industry who are diluting it with crap prices, no skills, etc, would not go down that path should there be a 3-year+ standard to adhere to.

The point of this is that there will be a standard coming in that means the 6 week courses can no longer churn out thousands of 'sparks' a year.

There will ALWAYS be those who will do the work irrespective but picture the scene:

You're looking for a change in career. Electric has always interested you. You look at some youtube vids you think ---- yeah i like the look of this. Pull up some floorboards, lash in some wires, grand a week, easy game.

You then do some research and find out it's illegal to do any of this without a 3 year apprenticeship or going an 'experienced worker' route. You heard about these 6 week courses but find out they're no longer offered since they're not legally allowed to do so, they've been replaced by a 3 year domestic apprenticeship that requires you to work for a firm and gather a portfolio of evidence.

You're telling me this guy is then still gonna just set up on his own? No chance. 90%+ of all those candidates will no longer join the industry.

It's not gonna stop the guy down the pub, the homeowner, the cowboy. But it is going to stop industry dilution of people with no experience and short courses competing with those who put in the real time on an apprenticeship.

That's my take anyway.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Exactly

 

[Electrics]

Remind me how many DIY Daves or Bob the Builders are doing porridge for breaching Part Pee ???

What 'breach' of Part P? As far as i'm aware that's just a building regulation that states the HOMEOWNER has to inform Building Control of electrical work. That's why people get away with doing it, because it's not an actual law governing what an ELECTRICIAN must and mustn't do.

 

[SparkySy]

I don't think it being illegal will make a great difference there are plenty of things out there that are but it doesn't stop people doing them!
Even gas works are still undertaken by those who are not qualified! The more honest of people will be turned away by it but there will always be those who really don't care as they make too much money from scamming people!
Got to love capitalism!

 

[Electrics]

I don't think it being illegal will make a great difference there are plenty of things out there that are but it doesn't stop people doing them!
Even gas works are still undertaken by those who are not qualified! The more honest of people will be turned away by it but there will always be those who really don't care as they make too much money from scamming people!
Got to love capitalism!

But how many people would undertake a £5k 6 week course knowing they wouldn't be allowed to touch electric after?

You don't think this stops an influx of career changers doing short domestic courses?

Those doing it for beer money will continue to do so and always will. This stops honest people (most of them) from taking on short courses to get into the industry.

Combine that with the planned changes for competent person schemes demanding experience not just 2365 and you really don't think this changes anything at all?

A***Skills and TS4U are, between them, doing £6.7m of 'sales' per year. If you count that as everyone paying the full £9k it's 745 people per year not coming into the industry and that's just two providers.

When you consider that the vast majority of their sales are not the full £9k but sometimes just £2500-5k for the domestic routes that number is up to 3-4 times larger.

What percentage of those 745 people will pay that money knowing they will not be able to touch electric after? What proportion of them will say 'ah ---- it' and set up on their own anyway without paying the course fees?

If even 10% do, that's between 650ish to 2500 people per year not entering the profession just based on those two training centres.

Now what about the thousands on 2365 Diploma's up and down the country who aren't working for someone? If they are also banned from working without a portfolio/experience then they will have to get jobs, meaning they also won't leave en masse and set up alone.

I think this stops massive dilution of the industry.

 

[Dustydazzler]

What we all really want to know IS ...

Will it make you a QUALIFIED electrician

 

[IAmSparkytus!]

From my experience, everyone carrying out electrical work who shouldn't be hasn't even been on one of these 6 week courses you're talking about. They're just handymen who think they can do it but they couldn't be more wrong

 

[Dartlec]

What 'breach' of Part P? As far as i'm aware that's just a building regulation that states the HOMEOWNER has to inform Building Control of electrical work. That's why people get away with doing it, because it's not an actual law governing what an ELECTRICIAN must and mustn't do.

That's because of how poorly Part P was introduced and awareness pushed out by the authorities.

It makes some work notifiable, but it also applies to ALL new work done that comes under building regulations.

In fact it's the only legally binding document that covers electrical work, though it mostly just says 'do it as BS7671 says', with the exception of things like socket heights, etc.

It's only real clause is that:

"P1. Reasonable provision shall be made in the design and installation of electrical installations in order to protect persons operating, maintaining or altering the installations from fire or injury"​

But breaching it is a criminal offence.

For whatever reason, the authorities almost never prosecute a breach of it though, and where electrical incompetence is involved they generally seem to go the EAWR route, perhaps because there are higher penalties (penalties for building regulations are fines only, though technically unlimited as to amount).

What SHOULD be happening is that LABC were funded and trained appropriately to monitor work in their area, and dish out enforcement notices to require crappy work to be corrected. Instead, building inspectors are generally being privatised, overworked, and as often as not barely visit a site any more in my experience, let alone monitor whether electrical work has been done properly. (Some areas are better than others)

Fun fact: The current Part P document on the Gov.uk site still says: "Electrical installations should be designed and installed in accordance with BS 7671:2008 incorporating Amendment No 1:2011"

 

[Dustydazzler]

From my experience, everyone carrying out electrical work who shouldn't be hasn't even been on one of these 6 week courses you're talking about. They're just handymen who think they can do it but they couldn't be more wrong

THIS

An these very same people will have zero idea about this new courses and new accreditation.
They will carry on doing what they have always been doing.
The only way things will ever change is if you start throwing builders in jail who try to wire up their own work...

Inventing a new 'course' will make absolutely ZERO difference to the handyman , DIY dave and Bob the Builder world of electrics

 

[Dartlec]

THIS

An these very same people will have zero idea about this new courses and new accreditation.
They will carry on doing what they have always been doing.
The only way things will ever change is if you start throwing builders in jail who try to wire up their own work...

Inventing a new 'course' will make absolutely ZERO difference to the handyman , DIY dave and Bob the Builder world of electrics

100%

And include Kevin the kitchen fitter and Benjamin the bathroom fitter in that....

 

[Electrics]

I really don't get how nobody seems to realise this thread is about those doing short courses and not 'dave down the pub'. It's even in the thread title. ?

 

[Dartlec]

I really don't get how nobody seems to realise this thread is about those doing short courses and not 'dave down the pub'. It's even in the thread title. ?

But the purpose of this change is presumably to raise the standards of domestic work? That's the issue with this change.

If the change is purely to stop short courses happening, then they may well achieve that - but it will make little practical difference - it may even make things worse.

I have little to no faith in the ability of this Government (or any previous one tbf) to suitably legislate in a way that achieves what is needed. Too many landlords with hands directly on the wheel of power or the ear of those that do to achieve an outcome that helps the industry AND homeowners.

As a 'short courser' from the very start of Part P days, I'm happy to admit that they have many flaws - but then again I've seen enough dodgy work from 'fully qualified' tradesmen with all the certificates to know that it's more complicated than that...

 

[Pretty Mouth]

I really don't get how nobody seems to realise this thread is about those doing short courses and not 'dave down the pub'. It's even in the thread title. ?

Your opening post talks about DIY work, and making domestic electrical work exclusive to those who are qualified (which it currently isn't, and the introduction of this qualification alone isn't going to change that). No mention of short courses until later on.

 

[Electrics]

Your opening post talks about DIY work, and making domestic electrical work exclusive to those who are qualified (which it currently isn't, and the introduction of this qualification alone isn't going to change that). No mention of short courses until later on.

It's in the title.

 

[Dustydazzler]

I really don't get how nobody seems to realise this thread is about those doing short courses and not 'dave down the pub'. It's even in the thread title. ?

You said it was to stop people undertaking electrical work in homes which is what the 6 week courses were trying to do

All you are doing is making the 6 week course a 6 month course or whatever

 

[Electrics]

You said it was to stop people undertaking electrical work in homes which is what the 6 week courses were trying to do

All you are doing is making the 6 week course a 6 month course or whatever

3 year apprenticeship. Did you watch the video?

My point is that honest decent people aren't going to undertake work that they're not legally allowed to do, knowing full well they're not legally allowed to do it. Which is most people.

They will also not pay for courses that don't give them their desired result.

This will 100% result in less competition in the domestic sector if done properly. How many people wanting to change career will do so if they know they have to essentially find an apprenticeship or get taken on as a mate for 5 years to become a 'experienced worker'? Not many i'd wager.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

It's in the title.

So you went off topic then. This is probably why everyone else went off topic. You must stick to the subject yourself if you want everyone else to.

 

[Dustydazzler]

So in a nut shell the course providers are changing from 6 weeks to 36 months...

Marvelous , it won't make a jot of difference in the short term

DIY Dave and Kevin the Kitchen Fitter will carry on regardless and will do safe in the knowledge that they won't ever be pulled up for doing so

At 43 I certainly won't be retraining or doing another apprecticeship , not a chance

I will carry on regardless, doing what I have been doing for the past 25 years

 

[IAmSparkytus!]

6 week courses shouldn't enable someone to carry out electrical work but I bet a lot of people doing the 6 week courses are decent and honest people who have been sold a load of crap but actually believe that it's worth something and at least they've went out of their way to try and gain knowledge... fair play to them!

The dodgy builder who comes to site and manages to convince the customer that they're capable of doing building, electrical and plumbing works and then goes ahead and attempts it all themselves without subbying the work out.... these are the people that need dealt with!

 

[Electrics]

So you went off topic then. This is probably why everyone else went off topic. You must stick to the subject yourself if you want everyone else to.

?

 

[Zerax]

What SHOULD be happening is that LABC were funded and trained appropriately to monitor work in their area, and dish out enforcement notices to require crappy work to be corrected. Instead, building inspectors are generally being privatised, overworked, and as often as not barely visit a site any more in my experience, let alone monitor whether electrical work has been done properly. (Some areas are better than others)

Personally... I don't want my council tax to go up any higher ! So I'd like to see the trade bodies actually do something for the extortionate annual fee... Let's legally enforce them to actually be responsible for the standard of their members ??

 

[Electrics]

So in a nut shell the course providers are changing from 6 weeks to 36 months...

Marvelous , it won't make a jot of difference in the short term

DIY Dave and Kevin the Kitchen Fitter will carry on regardless and will do safe in the knowledge that they won't ever be pulled up for doing so

At 43 I certainly won't be retraining or doing another apprecticeship , not a chance

I will carry on regardless, doing what I have been doing for the past 25 years

Nope, none of this was said anywhere. I don't think you watched or understood the video.

They are bringing in a domestic apprenticeship which results in a Gold Card to prove you've done said apprenticeship. For those that haven't you will have to prove competency through an 'experienced worker' route. It's likely competent persons schemes will require these to join in future.

If they made this a legal requirement you would do it, wouldn't you? You certainly wouldn't just carry on as is since you seemingly made a huge fuss recently about those not signing up to a scheme being 'cowboys' and leaving all the 'decent, honest' electricians to compete with the prices of those who don't have joining fees..

Nothing about course providers changing to 36 months, nothing about you needing to 'do another apprenticeship' ?

 

[ipf]

I've a feeling, with all the new house building 'planned' by the government that we're going to need a hell of a lot of newly qualified 'trades people' in the next few years. With brexit we're not going to be importing any ...so where are they going to come from?
Are these 'private teaching firms' offering qualification courses going to get their houses in order?
.....or are we going to re build and open all the technical colleges that used to be, to provide proper apprenticeships?...Some chance!
More means for money making for the scammers and friends, I'll wager.

 

[IAmSparkytus!]

I don't do any domestic works so forgive me for asking but what's the current requirement for carrying out domestic works and how does one achieve said requirements?

 

[Dustydazzler]

This will be my last post on this topic as most people all ready know my views on scams

But good luck with the 3 year competent person scams and I am sure you will get some poor saps to part with their hard earned money

But nothing will change and nothing will stop me finding botched installations every week that was supposedly fitted by an 'electrician'

 

[Electrics]

I don't do any domestic works so forgive me for asking but what's the current requirement for carrying out domestic works and how does one achieve said requirements?

There are none.

 

[Electrics]

This will be my last post on this topic as most people all ready know my views on scams

But good luck with the 3 year competent person scams and I am sure you will get some poor saps to part with their hard earned money

But nothing will change and nothing will stop me finding botched installations every week that was supposedly fitted by an 'electrician'

So if they say you can't join a competent person's scheme without a gold card you're going to give up work? Did you do the same when the schemes themselves came out?

 

[Zerax]

...or are we going to re build and open all the technical colleges that used to be, to provide proper apprenticeships?...Some chance!

Great idea... maybe divert some of the money squandered on universities ? A degree in 'Meja Studies' vs. A trade apprenticeship ??

 

[Pretty Mouth]

So if they say you can't join a competent person's scheme without a gold card you're going to give up work? Did you do the same when the schemes themselves came out?

What makes you think that a gold card will be compulsory to carry out electrical work?

 

[GBDamo]

From my experience, everyone carrying out electrical work who shouldn't be hasn't even been on one of these 6 week courses you're talking about. They're just handymen who think they can do it but they couldn't be more wrong

This.

Those that take the time and commitment to change career, spend thousands and gain the required* qualifications are rarely the ones to worry about.

They are no more or less likely to turn cowboy as those that went the full college, apprenticeship, NVQ and AM2 route.

Some control is undoubtedly needed but you have to ask how THIS and previous attempts are going to deliver this.

The vast majority of those offering unqualified and uncertified electrical services will continue to do so as THERE IS NO WAY OF KNOWING that the work has been done.

People don't care in that any new circuit to the garage, garden room, loft conversion, hot tub will often never come to light. The only real mechanism is on the sale of a house and even then chances are it will not be picked up.

The parallels with gas are a bit of a false comparison as, one, the opportunities for gas work are usually no more than 2-3 per property and, two, even with gas anyone can go into screwfix and buy a cooker hose. Do you really think there is no illegal gas work going on?

All this is is a rebranding of the present state of affairs, more schemes, more certificates, more paper course,more hurdles to jump, more expense to those that do the job properly....

....and most importantly more expense to the customer who is even more likely to get dodgy Dave in to fit that new light.


(*required, not necessarily desirable or the experience that is essential)

 

[Electrics]

What makes you think that a gold card will be compulsory to carry out electrical work?

I said 'if'. Hypothetical.

 

[LukeD]

There will be a few people on facebook etc who buy a nice card printer and sell perfect copies of these Gold cards for £80 .