E
Engineer54
I was asking your opinion...sheesh...
Well you got my opinion!! There was only one possible answer anyway!!!
Discuss Level of qualification needed to obtain licence? in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net
I was asking your opinion...sheesh...
Alright you old fart!
Guess that's me out of the new licensing scheme! haha
Create a minimum qualification and it has to be accessible i.e. not require sponsorship from an employer to gain it (you then get guys who are decent sparks but don't have the paperwork unable to formalise themselves, despite being more than willing to do so) - Thats why I proposed a serious indepth practical assessment with a theory test also. For the purposes of the practical test, I'm not sure if others agree but I think it would make sense to have different practicals for different sectors to test the different skills - making off large CSA SWA is a skill unto itself in the industrial sphere, as is tracing / terminating cables in a confined space in the domestic sphere....as 2 poor examples..
All you need to do is click the black triangle to the left of the thanks link on the left bottom of any post you feel is a problem and stop continually posting back, this way the thread doesn't get trashed and you may get the post which offends you removed.Again reading your post I suggest you remove it as you have been warned before...your comments are defamatory. If it makes you sleep a bit better why don't you trawl through my Facebook page, I'm sure you will find a copy of my grade card on there !
Are you ever going to stop ?
Gas has far more potential to kill multiple people.
exactly, no one wants to discuss tax affairs on a forum so why is uksparks constantly allowed to bring up and question mines ? I think he should be banned for repeatedly doing so.
Ok for new Entrants - NVQ3/AM2
Existing sparks - As above or a portfolio of work showing the required competencies OR an indepth practical assessment over say 5 days.
I'd agree with 5 yearly, though I'd also go along with not knowing when during the 5 years the assessment would crop up.
I'd also quite happily see an adjudication service or similar setup - customer isn't happy, calls the adjudicators - adjudicators agree - spark sorts it out or if horrifically bad faces sanctions, adjudicators disagree - customer pays the spark and if the complaint obviously malicious...pays a penalty charge (to dissuade timewasters).
In a country where the govt can't even bill for income tax properly / provide a regs book written in plain and unambiguous English....thats a pretty big assumption....lol
Without a core qualification, ...absolutely NOT!!
All this tax talk needs to stop, it is no ones business regarding someones tax return or tax affairs, I totally agree with JRC about that. So hopefully he will stop posting about it, as we are all getting fed up with it now.
Can you just clarify what your definition of a core qualification is please. I do accept what you are saying and I largely agree, but I suppose things have changed these days to how they used to be and its only supported by scheme providers who are controlling the situation.
Sorry, but you need to draw the line somewhere. There is and never has been a domestic installer, it's a make believe term, made up by the make believe competent assessors!! If such a scheme is brought in, and i certainly hope it does, then you will have to be given a certain period of time (maybe 2 Years) to meet the set minimum standard... The blanket term Electrician, is the basic qualified starting point, (eg, no DI's etc)
We need to get back to basics, and define what constitutes a qualified electrician. There is no place in this industry for under qualified operatives, no-matter what you call them. All you end up doing is deskilling the industry (and what is happening at the present along with the resulting low pay scales you see being offered) and that is just about the worst thing you can do to any trade!!
Your either an Electrician that holds all the relevant qualifications and skills, or you're NOT!!
This thread is turning into a "who has the biggest dick" competition between 3 or 4 members at the moment and Uk spark and JRC are trying to beat the other lol
OK, for the last 40/50 years the fundamental core qualification has been one of these, depending only on how long ago you completed your training .... 2360 Lv3, 2330 Lv 3 (AM 2), and presently 2364/65 (c/w AM2/NVQ Lv 3)
This thread is turning into a "who has the biggest dick" competition between 3 or 4 members at the moment and Uk spark and JRC are trying to beat the other lol
Playing Devil's Advocate - if you set the bar too high, and 10's of thousands of 'currently practising people' fall under it, then logically they all become redundant. On the basis that no government in their right mind is EVER going to pass legislation effecting that many people, ergo it follows that - for a period of time at least - there will have to be an amnesty to allow those CURRENTLY DOING SO to continue. It could have a ramp period of say five years to achieve 'the standard', but it couldn't just be an in or out process otherwise it'd probably all end in some massive human rights law case.
I can see it now - Mr Electrical Trainee spends £8k on his plastic to 'train', isn't allowed to work afterwards, sues his Plastic under terms of the credit act via some no-win-no-fee lawyer, Plastic x 10,000 others then sues the Government..... and so on.
So, to my mind, we are where we are. We'll not be going back in time from this point, all we can hope to achieve is a return to quality standards at some point in the future.
:smilielol5: or here lolHe best not bring his sausage over here!
On the flip side of the coin then, do you know exactly what qualifications you need to get the "Gas Safe" license? Just thought it would be a good idea so we can compare to an already licensed trade.
No mention of a core electrical qualification or any qualification for that matter so no better than what we have now
So a new spark gets away doing an NVQ / AM2 and an experienced spark has to do a "5 day in depth practical assessment"
Some disparity there then you obviously don't like level playing fields and if this is just to gain the right to apply for a licence I do wonder what you would expect at a 5 yearly assessment
A recipe for total chaos I can imagine a customer being really happy because their job is stopped for a few days while you have to go and do your reassessment at a moments notice and as it would expire after another 5 years some people could feel short changed getting hit for a reassessment within the 5 year period
Are you reinventing trading standards or creating another expensive quango !!!!!!
The regs are written in law speak as this is the reference book for the legal bods when we get it wrong
Reading through your initial assessment suggestions all I can see is £££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££ a 5 day assessment could easily end up costing between £2K - £2.5K when all the costs and lost earnings are taken into account and what will it prove getting experienced sparks to jump through hoops so they can carry on working in the industry while letting in new entrants with an NVQ / AM2 a qualification which isn't worth a right hand job IMO
Not sure, But don't Gas engineers on the Gas safe register have to take a test (exam) every year to keep the ticket?
Not sure, But don't Gas engineers on the Gas safe register have to take a test (exam) every year to keep the ticket?
Notice I said "Existing sparks - As above (i.e. the NVQ/AM2) OR a portfolio of work showing the required competencies OR an indepth practical assessment over say 5 days." Not in addition to....
What about a kebab would you get into the bath tub with him if he gave you some fatty meat?I live honestly and in reality and always have done, unfortunately some people like to think they can shop down the "One Upmanship Isle" in the supermarket.
He best not bring his sausage over here!
But, hey its not going to happen because we live in a dumb down society, where xfactor is more important than landing on mars, ****enders is more interesting than the Bush families relationship with the Bin Laden’s and reading has been replaced with the “must have it now” generation of “why read when you can watch the movie” people.
With the greatest of respect and in my opinion, you have to be living in some fantasy world if you think that suddenly thousands of people must have their right to trade restricted, or prohibited, and ultimately affect their ability to earn a living, pay bills & taxes over night, for no other reason than they failed to do an apprenticeship or gain a completely useless NVQ made up of photos of them standing next to a piece of conduit or holding a broom with a dust mask on. No chance, it isn’t going to happen, not right now and not in the future. There is no profit in that for the parasites, unless it was a tiered system with ultimately very expensive membership and more new add on “dumbed down” qualifications.
So one day you are deemed competent through Government backed schemes and the next day incompetent, unless you pay thousands of pounds for a new course and exam with multiple answer questions, no doubt focusing on how to read a book or use an index?
A “license to trade” is a long way off in this divided, over complicated, tangled up in red tape, parasite infested trade. A trade, which is at present and always has been, and always will be, policed with an insipid and ridiculously toothless non-entity, even if the work is dangerously unsafe.
Is it not the standard of education that should be targeted? The multi answer C&G land questions, which bear little resemblance to real situations? The Not very qualified 3, focusing on your ability to photograph yourself, whilst conducting an insulation resistance test? Or the wonderful test board with its real “life sized” circuits to test.
In my opinion, its the “dumbing down” of the qualifications that’s the problem. The forever changing numbers of C&G quals don’t help either. If you change the system to licensing, it just moves the goal posts, but the bad training and dumb down exams just change their names (& prices) and the incompetent scheme members become incompetent license holders, and the whole thing goes round and round making loads of money and the parasites thrive.
But, hey its not going to happen because we live in a dumb down society, where xfactor is more important than landing on mars, ****enders is more interesting than the Bush families relationship with the Bin Laden’s and reading has been replaced with the “must have it now” generation of “why read when you can watch the movie” people.
So why does it matter if it takes 3 years, 5 weeks or you just take the exam, if the qualification/exam was the same, requiring in-depth answers in each case? Change the education part and the rest will follow. There is no need for a License, just some good old fashioned real education, bring back C&G 2360 and C&G 2391, and C&G 2400 , with add on’s if required. Experience, well that’s a different kettle of worms.
With the greatest of respect and in my opinion, you have to be living in some fantasy world if you think that suddenly thousands of people must have their right to trade restricted, or prohibited, and ultimately affect their ability to earn a living, pay bills & taxes over night, for no other reason than they failed to do an apprenticeship or gain a completely useless NVQ made up of photos of them standing next to a piece of conduit or holding a broom with a dust mask on. No chance, it isn’t going to happen, not right now and not in the future. There is no profit in that for the parasites, unless it was a tiered system with ultimately very expensive membership and more new add on “dumbed down” qualifications.
So one day you are deemed competent through Government backed schemes and the next day incompetent, unless you pay thousands of pounds for a new course and exam with multiple answer questions, no doubt focusing on how to read a book or use an index?
I think you miss-understand what I was trying to say. It is comendable for anyone to standup for what they believe is right and I applaud you for doing so.
I agree that the schemes are no more interested in the electrical industry other than to take control of the market share of membership and thus make lots of money. However, If you believe that another scheme "licensing" will be any different at present then I disagree. I believe that exams based on muli choice answers are not as credible as a writen paper and as such think that a lot of the ills could be solved via better quality education.
But to say all those who dissagree with a license are the problem and somehow to blame for poorly educated trained electricians is a bit knee jerk....by the way did I say do nothing?
Back in 2008 / 2009 PCV and HGV drivers were told they had to pass a driver CPC by September 2013 / 2014 to get a Driver Qualification Card (DQC) or they would not be able to continue driving until they got their Driver Qualification Card (DQC) this wasn't in some fantasy world this was right here in UKPLC and the rest of Europe so no DQC no job, so why could this not happen in the electrical industry if you don't have the necessary qualifications to get a licence you have x number of years to achieve the required level for a licence
I'm not saying licencing is the only way, but it is a far better solution that what we have now. In esscence, it is about making sure that every electrician throughout the country who turns up on someones doorstep or turns up on a building site is FULLY qualified. It works well for gas, it is cheaper for the contractor, a stricter assessment not based on money, safer for the end consumer and the enforcement side of it actually has some teeth, so why would it not work for electricity?
JIB grade = Spark
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not the scam rubbish lol
Ok if thats what you want to happen, then what if the required qualification is a so called new one at the cost of £3000, do you not think that the forum would be filled with people saying how this is a travesty and how they can stick the new qualification?
Im not and i'll say it again, NOT, sticking up for short course entry into competent person registers. Im saying be careful what your asking for, because it may impact financially on the qualified 2360 2391 2382 or what ever qualification you have electrician,
Why do you think it is likely to cost £3k a lot of people have already invested a lot of time and money gaining qualifications and not by the quick route or is this the result of kicking out the established scams and some one else making a quick buck
Well for instance, how much would it cost me to get an NVQ3 now £1000s ??
If it became mandatory the price wont go down.
Justed looked £6990 woops may be £2990
The Not very qualified 3, focusing on your ability to photograph yourself, whilst conducting an insulation resistance test? Or the wonderful test board with its real “life sized” circuits to test.
Also I dont think thats fair to say its the standard of teaching thats got worse. You would have to teach the sylabus, if the syalbus is poor the training is poor. Plus a lot of training is done in private training centres whos sole objective is a quick turn around not education.
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