Ring vs Radial

[kingeri]

I wish they'd make 4mm T&E with a 2.5mm CPC. It would then become much more useful!

 

[MarkieSparkie]

here in ireland the last time i met an ecssa inspector he advised me to stay away from using ring circuits as it was going to be changed down the line in the near future so i always go with radials from then on

Don't hold your breath mate or limit yourself to just radials. I was told similar when I was an impressionable apprentice 35+ years ago! :wheelchair:

 

[bigspark17]

i have to agree with chris... joe bloggs comes along to put a chrome socket on the 1st socket on a radial, messes up the earths and you loose your cpc to the rest of the sockets.. they still work but no cpc protection to all his appliances.!! untill he gets his house periodically checks next (which he obviously will).!!! If you can plan your route out well before starting your ring final usually you wouldnt have to use that much more cable..

 

[imago]

I agree with all the posters who have shown up the potential faults for both rings and radials, they are all possible as are the resulting issues.

However, I don't think anyone should design an installation (or part of one) based on how someone could mess it up by fiddling around with it either in ignorance or when incompetent. The only considerations in that vein should be given to potential users and uses, not some idiot with a screwdriver. It's part of the human condition that some people will mess about where they shouldn't, some will be lucky, some won't. As long as all the professionals involved have done their job properly then all is well IMHO.

Design and planning is about selecting the correct methods and materials for the intended purpose. Radials, rings, and combinations of the two are all available to use. It's up to the designer and installer to select what he or she thinks is best suited to the situation in front of them, then use that.

 

[Guitarist]

Design and planning is about selecting the correct methods and materials for the intended purpose. Radials, rings, and combinations of the two are all available to use. It's up to the designer and installer to select what he or she thinks is best suited to the situation in front of them, then use that.

You've hit the nail on the head there. So many people are coming into the profession now with very little training that although they know how to connect a radial or RFC, many won't actually understand the maths behind it all, let alone have the experience to tailor each install to individual design criteria. Not necessarily having a correct or incorrect way to do something is both a strength and a weakness.

 

[hermetic]

Bit of a silly argument really, as there are no advantages whatever for radial circuits, ("they take less time to wire" is NOT an advantage!) and they are just as prone to the broken conductor problem (which, if done properly, is "not at all") the vast majority of the housing stock in this country was rewired for the first time between about 1960 and 1980. they were all wired with 13amp sockets and ring mains under the IEE regs which stated "any number of sockets on a ring and any number of sockets on a spur so long as the number of sockets on spurs does not exceed the number of sockets on the ring, and the whole does not exceed a floorspace of 100 sq M." the vast majority of these houses are wired in T/E pvc cables, and will not be rewired in the foreseeable future, hence the downturn in work we have all experienced in the last 10-20 years. These ring mains have been reliable and safe. Indeed, as you can read on the safety socket cover campaign thread, we have the safest electrical system in Europe. Harmonization with the EEC is a stupid exercise as anyone who has traveled through the EEC countries will have experienced the vastly inferior kit and wiring systems they have used which are truly "out of the ark" Trying to bring in dubious regulations that require good efficient and safe installations to be removed in some sort of EEC/government job creation scheme will not work. Regs are not retroactive.

 

[Guitarist]

My in-laws have just got home from a holiday in Greece (we picked them up from the airport). Anyway, the first thing my Father-in-law wanted to show me were some photos of the shocking (literally) wiring over there.
There is one where a row of lamp posts all have the bottom access hatch removed and the wires are hanging out. The lamps still work, but it appears people may have been "tapping in" to them.
If we're all supposed to be "harmonised", why is it that it's only us that bothers doing as we're told?

 

[ipf]

My in-laws have just got home from a holiday in Greece (we picked them up from the airport). Anyway, the first thing my Father-in-law wanted to show me were some photos of the shocking (literally) wiring over there.
There is one where a row of lamp posts all have the bottom access hatch removed and the wires are hanging out. The lamps still work, but it appears people may have been "tapping in" to them.
If we're all supposed to be "harmonised", why is it that it's only us that bothers doing as we're told?

It must be a question of the economy, you know how hard it's been in Greece. I wouldn't worry about it. The way things are going here, economy and tradesmen wise, we'll probably 'harmonise' with them and it'll be the same here in a few years.

 

[Adam W]

There is one where a row of lamp posts all have the bottom access hatch removed and the wires are hanging out. The lamps still work, but it appears people may have been "tapping in" to them.

Somebody recently posted a link to the government site which stated ESQCR, which clearly stated tapping off lamp posts is illegal.
I don't know if ESQCR is purely British law or a European law, but it's quite clear that people shouldn't be doing that.
How it is policed is a different matter -if you did that here you'd probably get a couple of meat wagons round and probably get a stretch, but it seems in Greece anything goes, which could explain why their economy is so fusked.

 

[Guitarist]

It must be a question of the economy, you know how hard it's been in Greece. I wouldn't worry about it. The way things are going here, economy and tradesmen wise, we'll probably 'harmonise' with them and it'll be the same here in a few years.

I'm told that it's always been like that, and that nobody seems to care out there. Must be the cold, damp weather that makes the British so ---- about everything (me included).

 

[MarkieSparkie]

Somebody recently posted a link to the government site which stated ESQCR, which clearly stated tapping off lamp posts is illegal.
I don't know if ESQCR is purely British law or a European law, but it's quite clear that people shouldn't be doing that.
How it is policed is a different matter -if you did that here you'd probably get a couple of meat wagons round and probably get a stretch, but it seems in Greece anything goes, which could explain why their economy is so fusked.

ESQCR is UK statutory law only.

 

[Adam W]

ESQCR is UK statutory law only.

That's what I thought, but surely there must be some Greek/European equivalent prohibiting people from going around tapping off lamp posts? It seems like common sense.

 

[amo]

I would use both but 9 out of 10 times use a ring just to make sure the install is future proof in case of extra appliances and electrical equipment :bucktooth:

 

[Guitarist]

That's what I thought, but surely there must be some Greek/European equivalent prohibiting people from going around tapping off lamp posts? It seems like common sense.

There are laws in this Country which should be upheld, but sadly it seems down to whatever people seem to make the most fuss about... Maybe the Greeks simply don't care.

 

[ipf]

It's all Greek to me !

 

[amlu]

when diy installer mess up the ring it is still going to work. like 2 overloaded radials fed from 32a mcb

 

[Fin170]

when diy installer mess up the ring it is still going to work. like 2 overloaded radials fed from 32a mcb

Don't worry, part p will stop the DIYer messing with the electrics

 

[Knobhead]

Do I detect a hint of sarcasm?

 

[Guitarist]

Part P has definitely made a difference to the Landlord scene. They know that they can't have any old odd-job-man change their CU now (not easily anyway), so there's one benefit.

 

[Engineer54]

when diy installer mess up the ring it is still going to work. like 2 overloaded radials fed from 32a mcb

Why may i ask, are you considering something that may or may not happen by an untrained person?? Your responsibilities stop at the circuit(s) in question, being designed and installed in accordance with BS7671...