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  1. butchtaylor909
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    butchtaylor909 EF Member

    Location:
    Bury
    Business Name:
    DT Electrics
    Hi everyone,
    I have been asked to look at someones Garage for them as they want to be able to have more "stuff" in there.

    currently it is powered by a 2.5 t&e run from the house CU straight to a 2g pattress. But they want a separate CU in the garage.

    my initial idea was to henley block and put a fused switch in and run 10mm SWA from that. however the house CU is in the middle of the house so would need a good 3m run in the house and another 3-4m to get it underground to the garage.
    the customer asked if the was anyway to not use SWA through the house? so i mentioned about adaptable boxes.
    Now my question is could i run 10mm 3core (to maintain the CPC size and not T&E) to an adaptable box mounted externally then gland some 10mm SWA to that terminated on the inside, and earthing the steel? and then repeat on the garage side?
    Providing all my tests are fine is there any issue with this?
     
  2. Murdoch
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    Murdoch Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Woking
    So the customer will allow 10mm T&E, but not SWA...... hum

    what is the 10mm 3 core you refer to? Singles?
     
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  3. Pete999
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    Pete999 Trusted Advisor

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    Location:
    Northampton
    Leave the tails of the SWA long enough to reach the CU after you terminate it at the AB
     
  4. westward10
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    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    Installing a separate switch fuse removes the single point of isolation assuming there already is one.
     
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  5. butchtaylor909
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    butchtaylor909 EF Member

    Location:
    Bury
    Business Name:
    DT Electrics
    The armour obviously limits the flexibility of the SWA and therefor hinders the routing of the cable. Concrete floors so no cavity to send it under. He wants to try and keep things as simple as possible. and to be honest so do i. 3m of flex is easier to route through a house than 3 m of SWA. they have had a recent rewire and they have had conduit fiited into the wall along the proposed cable route, i have checked and i can get a 10mm 3core down it but not a 10mm SWA. Using this means no need to channel and re-plaster or surface mount and put in trunking. Plus works out cheaper.

    10mm cable that has 3 cores with all csa being 10mm! like industrial YY control cables,can get rubber or PVC versions of it, from my previous job experience i know it goes over 10mm in CSA. If it was singles it would not be 3 core, it would be 3 single core cables surely!

    that is what i thought but having to strip about half of the overall length seemed a bit wasteful. If he lets me or if there is no other way i can terminate straight to the switch fuse removing the need to use ABs or leave the inner sheath running through the house for 3 m

    Why not henley block after the isolation switch? which is what i was intending thus it keeps a single point of isolation. And with a switch fuse it allows for the garage/workshop to maintain power in the event of anything tripping in the house. Prevents needing to factor in discrimination for the garage CU potentially tripping the house CU too.

    thanks for the replies so far.
    Still fairly new to this so glad for the advice but i will question most things until i am sure.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2017
  6. Pete999
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    Pete999 Trusted Advisor

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    Location:
    Northampton
    Route the SWA outside @ CU terminate into an Adaptable box outside, suitably IP rated and run 10mm twin with cpc from box to CU @ garage terminate SWA directly into New Garage unit, rocket science it is not.
     
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  7. Pete999
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    Pete999 Trusted Advisor

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    I thought you were terminating the SWA directly on the outside wall behind the CU you obviously cant strip yards of armour off the SWA and run that internally, jeez mate get a grip
     
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  8. butchtaylor909
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    butchtaylor909 EF Member

    Location:
    Bury
    Business Name:
    DT Electrics
    Yeah thats along the lines of what i was thinking to do. Just was not sure if there was any issues with doing it like that.

    i even mentioned in the OP that it would need 3m of cable inside the house due to where the CU is so i was wondering why you would suggest stripping 3m of armour off;):D
     
  9. Geordielad
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    Geordielad Regular EF Member

    If there's already conduit in the house to run through, why not just extend this to the garage and run singles the whole distance?
     
  10. Pete999
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    Pete999 Trusted Advisor

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    Location:
    Northampton
    I'm not suggesting that, I thought it was mentioned earlier, I may have misunderstood the bit about 3mtr inside, again I assumed it was a 3 mtr run from the CU to the point where you could enter the garage space
     
  11. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    cheshire/staffordshire
    Business Name:
    Telectrix
    if you have conduit installed for the 3m inside the house, run it 10mm singles to ad. box. then joint to SWA, remembering that the armour needs to be earthed at the house end if not used as part of cpc, or both ends if it is. earthing nuts come in useful here.
     
  12. butchtaylor909
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    butchtaylor909 EF Member

    Location:
    Bury
    Business Name:
    DT Electrics
    Now would you put it as an non-rcd protected way on the House CU (would need a new CU as all ways are in use) or go for the Henley block split and switch fuse like i was thinking about?
     
  13. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    cheshire/staffordshire
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    Telectrix
    how is the cable to be installd in the house? is it <50mm from surface of a wall? if not, RCD protection is not required.
     
  14. butchtaylor909
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    butchtaylor909 EF Member

    Location:
    Bury
    Business Name:
    DT Electrics
    In metal conduit that is run along the bottom of the kitchen behind all the cupboards. no idea how deep with out ripping the new kitchen out and knocking hole in the wall to measure.
    But if i can prove its earthed (or provide one) there is no need to RCD regardless of depth.:cool:

    The next question is which is best
    10mm T&E +CPC
    10mm 3 core
    or 3x 10mm single core

    or is it all 6 and half a dozen. :D
     
  15. westward10
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    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    Unless it has earthed containment.
     
  16. Pete999
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    Pete999 Trusted Advisor

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    Northampton
    10mm2 T&E +cpc?
     
  17. butchtaylor909
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    butchtaylor909 EF Member

    Location:
    Bury
    Business Name:
    DT Electrics
    No your right i have never had to do a garage rewire where the CU is so far in the house. normally its a simple job of having a AB outside and running through to the CU, but as this is the first time i have come to a job like this i wanted to ask for advice and not just go at it cowboy fashion like a lot of people do.
     
  18. butchtaylor909
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    butchtaylor909 EF Member

    Location:
    Bury
    Business Name:
    DT Electrics
    but at least i am trying to get the job done correctly with some SWA and not with a bit of 2.5 t&e buried bare to the garage like the last dodgy spark did
     
  19. butchtaylor909
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    butchtaylor909 EF Member

    Location:
    Bury
    Business Name:
    DT Electrics
    yeah sorry getting tired, up too early and not enough sleep last night.:(
    does the bonding conductor not need to have a minimum csa of 10 mm to an outbuilding fed form a dwelling with a pme system? i put cpc by error and not pbc.
    but without going round again off top of my head i cannot remember if there were any extraneous conductive parts. think the water was plastic.
     
  20. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    cheshire/staffordshire
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    Telectrix
    earrth the metal conduit. install 10mm singles.
     
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  21. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    cheshire/staffordshire
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    Telectrix
    well, that's all i had on the van that day. :(
     
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  22. Pete999
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    Pete999 Trusted Advisor

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    Location:
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    What no 10mm2T&E+cpc?
     
  23. butchtaylor909
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    butchtaylor909 EF Member

    Location:
    Bury
    Business Name:
    DT Electrics
    Thanks for the advice Telextrix.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 6, 2017
  24. telectrix
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    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    cheshire/staffordshire
    Business Name:
    Telectrix
    that's for the fairies that think all showers should be in 10mm. sling some 6mm on a catenary, it won't get hot till you shove 90A down it. ( maybe only 80A on a hot day though). :confused:
     
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  25. butchtaylor909
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    butchtaylor909 EF Member

    Location:
    Bury
    Business Name:
    DT Electrics
    or maybe have 3m tails from the AB in place of the 10mm2T&E+cpc?

    see we all make mistakes;)
     
  26. Pete999
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    Pete999 Trusted Advisor

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    Location:
    Northampton
    What 10mm2 TWIN AND EARTH PLUS A CPC never have I seen such an animal
     
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  27. Murdoch
    Online

    Murdoch Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Woking
    Have you asked your schemes tech support for suggestions?
     
  28. Lou
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    Lou Admin Staff Member Top Contributor

    Location:
    Staffordshire
    Please keep this thread polite to all posters and on track else it will have to be locked.

    Thanks guys.
     
  29. butchtaylor909
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    butchtaylor909 EF Member

    Location:
    Bury
    Business Name:
    DT Electrics
    Thanks Murdoch,
    To be honest i had forgotten about asking them, i was hoping to get the advice here.
     
  30. Murdoch
    Online

    Murdoch Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Woking
    Probably a reasonable call to make, outline the "issues" and then how you intend to deal with it, seeking their views .... that way they can tell you have thought about the "job" rather than assuming they will give you the answers.

    A bit like using this forum... outline issues, suggest your solution (as you did) and then respond to points raised - which you have - and this is the best way to get the most out of the "virtual" team.

    Which scheme are you with?
     
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  31. butchtaylor909
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    butchtaylor909 EF Member

    Location:
    Bury
    Business Name:
    DT Electrics
    working through NICEIC towards DI
     
  32. buzzlightyear
    Online

    buzzlightyear Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    star command
    butchtaylor909 some of the questions. that asked on this forum
    we can not do the job for you .
    we can only give you advice may be one of the sparks on this forum could call to the job in question and give advise.
     
  33. westward10
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    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    If you can prove the tube in the wall is effectively earthed then a non metal sheathed cable can be used without additional rcd protection. You need to assertain whether main protective bonds are required in the garage, if not you can ignore the separate 10.0 cpc requirement. I would avoid using YY, CY or SY cable because it is not recognised for use in this country. 10.0 T&E is fine with a separate 10.0 if required for main protective bonding.
     
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  34. butchtaylor909
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    butchtaylor909 EF Member

    Location:
    Bury
    Business Name:
    DT Electrics
    I never wanted anyone to do the job for me,
    I
    had a problem,
    I
    had come up with a solution,
    I
    just wanted some advice as to if there were any problems with doing it that way.

    A simple yes mate that's fine or no mate have you considered x,y,z... would do
     
  35. butchtaylor909
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    butchtaylor909 EF Member

    Location:
    Bury
    Business Name:
    DT Electrics
    Thank you. i had planned to test the conduit next time i am on site. cannot remember if the sink had plastic or metal pipes, so had planned to be checking that too.
    last time i say YY cable was during my 21 years in the military so i know about it but was not sure about its domestic use as i am still relatively new to this.
     
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  36. buzzlightyear
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    buzzlightyear Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    star command
    how long have you been qualified sorry to ask you.
     
  37. westward10
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    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    Avoid all those YY, CY and SY cables even though you see it installed everywhere.
     
  38. butchtaylor909
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    butchtaylor909 EF Member

    Location:
    Bury
    Business Name:
    DT Electrics
    Few months, Been working with others doing simple jobs but want get to registered and head off on my own.
     
  39. buzzlightyear
    Online

    buzzlightyear Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    star command
    I what way!
     
  40. butchtaylor909
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    butchtaylor909 EF Member

    Location:
    Bury
    Business Name:
    DT Electrics
    extension to existing circuits, replacing accessories, CU change, full rewire, first and second fix on a renovation. simple stuff, nothing where i have had to join cables at anything other than an accessory, which is why i needed to ask about this job, not because i did not know but more because the more i thought about it the more i doubted myself.
     
  41. buzzlightyear
    Online

    buzzlightyear Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    star command
    did you work with a firm.
     
  42. butchtaylor909
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    butchtaylor909 EF Member

    Location:
    Bury
    Business Name:
    DT Electrics
    not currently i was doing work with a NICEIC electrician that lived nearby until he gave up due to ill health last week.

    currently sat at home twiddling thumbs and doing what ever jobs i can get
     
  43. Ian1981
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    Ian1981 Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    North east
    Agreed sy,yy and cy cables are not made to a British standard and you would have to depart from bs 7671 if using them for fixed wiring.
    They are commonly used for control wiring and aircon.
    The on site guide warns about using such cables.
     
  44. butchtaylor909
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    butchtaylor909 EF Member

    Location:
    Bury
    Business Name:
    DT Electrics
    From memory they are made to a British standard, BS EN 50525 iirc.
     
  45. Ian1981
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    Ian1981 Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    North east
    They claim to be that is all
     
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