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Please checkout the new poll we will be pushing hard, and want some good stories to come out of this
result are public - you can change your vote over time, which might genuinely be the case from time to time.
- Thread starter kevben
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Discuss Working in Schools? in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net
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Dont forget if you are working while kids are around Police checks also cant have just anyone there now a days !
As for the work most councils have their own little ways so best talking to them to see what they require !
Here it used to be once you had the job we would get the materials home asap and they were payably as soon as they were on site, then any changes they would pay for materials and also pay us a restocking fee for anything not required ! It used to be a gold mine for the firm i worked for back then!
Days have changed since my time so i cant give much advice as to what happens now sorry.
As for the work most councils have their own little ways so best talking to them to see what they require !
Here it used to be once you had the job we would get the materials home asap and they were payably as soon as they were on site, then any changes they would pay for materials and also pay us a restocking fee for anything not required ! It used to be a gold mine for the firm i worked for back then!
Days have changed since my time so i cant give much advice as to what happens now sorry.
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You need to discuss with the council (and/or the Governors Premises rep if its an academy..) what their requirements are.
They will certainly want to be assured of your competence and that you have whatever insurances they want in place.
Other information that may help you
https://www.atl.org.uk/health-and-safety/work-environment/electrical-safety.asp
http://www.jkhs.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/PM_electrical_safety.pdf
They will certainly want to be assured of your competence and that you have whatever insurances they want in place.
Other information that may help you
https://www.atl.org.uk/health-and-safety/work-environment/electrical-safety.asp
http://www.jkhs.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/PM_electrical_safety.pdf
D
Deleted member 9648
Schools in my area have their own budgets and are able to employ contractors without having to use council approved contractors. NICEIC approved contractors are stipulated though. Most will require a documented H&S policy,and a current DBS check . Dont forget to ask to see the asbestos register before starting or quoting any work.
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This is what get my rag - NICEIC is one of a number of bodies out there and to stipulate one is in breach of fair competition laws, the catch 22 though is if you challenge it then you might as well wave goodbuy to a chance of winning the contract.
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I am not disputing you DW, but is it defo in breach of fair competition. Can an organisation not stipulate their own minimum requirements. Maybe as it is a council ran affair they can't. I don't know. I am NAPIT registered so it gets my goat also.
To the OP, are you CHAS registered. That seems to be a major requirement up here. Also double your prices and add another 30% for good measure. The schools get ripped off big style!!
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It stems from the Niceic been the only body in the distant past but as other schemes have jumped into the market the old hats still wear blinkers thinking Niceic are the requirement mainly through pen pushers with little idea .. its been over the years addressed with numerous councils and they have had to change their wording and not stipulate a selected preference due to the fair competition rules.
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calpol91
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probably depends on the school. most likely be a cheque, when i worked for myself, some would pay up fairly sharp, others you had to wait 30 days.
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That will be one of the things you agree with them before you start work won't it?
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It'll be in their standard terms and conditions, presumably sent to you with the tender document before you quoted.
If not it'll be on their website somewhere.
Better still, ring them and ask.
D
Deleted member 9648
Agreed,as you state it is because the NICEIC were the original body and remain the only one widely known by the public. I'll wager if you stated ELECSA,STROMA NAPIT etc to just about anyone outside of the electrical industry you'll get a blank look.
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Guest77
Regarding the NICEIC they have the approved contractor scheme, I didn't realise the others had that, they are part P schemes only I believe. To work in schools you need to be on the EXOR list usually, this is the level required to prove you are a safe contractor, the EXOR accreditation level usually requires examination of accounts, all risk insurance, police checks on staff, a full health and safety scheme membership, and you may also need to show the county council priced work on paper so they know you know what you are doing, you need to prove substainity and also need to prove you have a method statement and risk assessment system in place.
It is not the same for all councils of course, but certainaly a lot are adopting the EXOR system for compliance.
Mike
It is not the same for all councils of course, but certainaly a lot are adopting the EXOR system for compliance.
Mike
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What most people dont seem to get is only the nic, napit and ECA assess you for commercial and industrial work as well, the others cover only domestic work so are not within the scope required in the first place
the school i work for accept either of these 3 and thats fair enough i think, but if your looking at working in the public sector on commercial works why would you even consider elecsa or stroma etc, it makes no sense
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No, BSI and Stroma also assess you for non domestic work
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Guest77
They do regarding energy saving schemes dave but I haven't seen a approved contractor status with them which is for companies carrying out other than Domestic work, they also need accredation themselves from others like EXOR for example before they get respect with Local authorities like the NICEIC currently does. New schemes like Stroma need to prove themselves first to County councils, currently they are concidered nothing more than a Part P scheme, perhaps they are building for the future but they have a way to go.
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Guest77
Napit is a laughed at scheme usually, there have been horror stories about them only carrying out 18 month checks and assessors with limited scope knowledge, they have a long way to go also before getting county council respect outside Domestic scope, JMO oh and JME.
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G
Guest77
I am not doubting they are trying to gain certification away from the domestic sector Dave, just saying as far as councils are concerned they cannot justify it yet, it is too new for them, they need to prove it first. Look I don't make these comments lightly mate, I have attended County council meetings where contractors have asked the funding side of it about using other schemes and they have said that napit had to step up a gear and were falling short on conditions which were needed to be adhered to before being reckonised as compliant, they fell short on inspections times and inspector numbers along with other issues regading accounts access etc to be regarding in the same manner in their opinion as the NICEIC. Dave I don't like the fact the NICEIC dominate the councils but their approved contractor status is currently way ahead of the other schemes who are more concerned with Domestic systems. I appreciate Napit and Stroma etc are trying to gain credibility there, and will do so of course eventually but currently are way short on a lot of councils opinion, right or wrong, I am just saying what I have heard several times. And Napit are ahead of Stroma at the moment, Stroma is still very new.
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G
Guest77
Yes I agree, but that is what the county councils want, they have been running an approved contractor scheme for 40 years plus now and therefore are the accepted body of the Local authorities, the rest need to catch up, but are a way back yet.
G
Guest77
But the BS are standards not a regulary body sending out inspectors annually checking work from approved contractors in schools and libraries etc, big difference, I am not NICEIC friendly, just pointing out the obvious, for Stroma to gain acceptance by most councils as a competition to the NICEIC they need to up thier game and get away from the Part P schemes they seem to get attention in, there are few houses in county council control, it is schools and police/fire stations and libraiers etc etc, the city councils deal with housing, and this thread is about county council requirements.
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G
Guest77
Never heard of them inspecting members and the NICEIC do have 11000, it is no good trying to argue Stromas case, they will need to adapt to a scheme inspecting Commercial and Industrial work by letting the Local authorities know and by adhereing to the local authorities requirements, they are not there yet, they are new and trying to get there, they will, but at the moment the NICEIC have the market with the Approved contractor scheme, I have been doing this 33 years and have been to dozens of meetings, I am not making this up, I have seen Napit attempt to get in the door and fall due to not meeting requirments, they are also too pro Part P, to get into the schools most, not all but Most Local authorities want the established NICEIC, it is a fact and for it to change the others need to up their game lol.
G
Guest77
The thing is with the NICEIC the inspectors are different from the Domestic installer inspectors, the NICEIC treat the 2 bodies as different bodies, the same organisation but they keep them apart, If stroma did a similar thing and could adhere to the L A requirements they may get in the door, but they are associated with Part P only, bad marketing, I have just looked at their site and nothing stands out as anything other than Domestic and Green at first look to me.
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G
Guest77
Very True mate, very true.
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I'm not interested in arguing stromas case, I'm far more interesting in the case against the NICEIC.
I have two local schools on my customer list, and the state of the work carried out there in recent years by the county council approved contractors is diabolical to say the least, they can stick their NICEIC registration as all it seems to guarantee these days is that a **** job will be done.
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Guest77
So your saying all Electrical contractors on the NICEIC Approved contractor scheme do a **** job then? one word Dave=Bollox
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It certainly appears that way based on the **** I've had to deal with in the last couple of years. What about the people on here who loudly proclaim their membership of the NICEIC yet clearly haven't got a clue?
Of course it's a generalisation and there must be some top notch installers on the list. But none of is ever gets called out to deal with their ****ups.
G
Guest77
I have known the schools caretaker to carry out work on the schools in the past Dave lol, you will always get good and bad sparks, regarding the NICEIC, I am not interested in them myself these days either, but the thread was asking a question about what you need to work in primary schools, I was answering the OP with a constructive realistic view, some schools however are allowed to spend their own money how they please, in that case they can employ anyone, so that said the NICEIC doesn't matter in those cases.
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Guest77
Well I was a member for years and won awards on large projects, I also know of several good companies in their approved contractor scheme, to suggest all NICEIC approved contractors do a **** job is just plain untrue and also unfair on many of the guys on here who are also forced to be with them to keep local authorities happy.
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G
Guest77
It is up to Stroma and Napit and the others to prove to the L A that they have the facilities in place to monitor contractors properly, when they do that hopefully the NICEIC hold will crumble.
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G
Guest77
(1) Most of us have had no choice but to join the NICEIC to get work which is paid for with public money
(2) The local authorities have only had the NICEIC in the past and therefore know nothing else.
(3) It is up to the schemes to promote themselves if they want a slice of the cake outside the Domestic sector
(4) the Ops question was regarding working in a Primary school and therefore the info he got was accurate for the question.
(5) To be in the game getting on arcitects lists and consulancy lists regarding work involving public money the contractor more than likely need to be in the NICEIC approved scheme.
I don't like it Dave, but it is fact, the ECA know it and have done something about it as have Elecsa, they are getting there, stroma are a long way back as are Napit currently.
(2) The local authorities have only had the NICEIC in the past and therefore know nothing else.
(3) It is up to the schemes to promote themselves if they want a slice of the cake outside the Domestic sector
(4) the Ops question was regarding working in a Primary school and therefore the info he got was accurate for the question.
(5) To be in the game getting on arcitects lists and consulancy lists regarding work involving public money the contractor more than likely need to be in the NICEIC approved scheme.
I don't like it Dave, but it is fact, the ECA know it and have done something about it as have Elecsa, they are getting there, stroma are a long way back as are Napit currently.
G
Guest77
Where have you got that from? I was inspected every 12 months without fail, took him around 2-3 jobs and he sat in the office examining all the paperwork etc, year in year out. Regarding a clark of works, we had one twenty years ago but the council sacked him to save money, I agree it is a good way forward, maybe some councils still employ them, I have no idea if they do but some may.
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Surrey, Essex and Kent use the same method of contracting. And this is separated into 2 categories. High value and Low.
The County councils deal with high values, and only 4 main registered construction companies can tender for the contract. The company and all its subcontractors, Must have Construction Online certification. Plus relevant approval ie NICIEE. Without this, or being on the approve list, you wont get a look in. The lower value under £40k is down to the schools own budget, and they can employ who they wish....If you have the chance of bidding here, this is an opportunity to get on their approved list.
The County councils deal with high values, and only 4 main registered construction companies can tender for the contract. The company and all its subcontractors, Must have Construction Online certification. Plus relevant approval ie NICIEE. Without this, or being on the approve list, you wont get a look in. The lower value under £40k is down to the schools own budget, and they can employ who they wish....If you have the chance of bidding here, this is an opportunity to get on their approved list.
D
Deleted member 9648
I'd have to agree with MDJ. The annual assessment process for approved contractors is pretty thorough.
I'd very much like to see some actual evidence of a shocking standard of work carried out by NICEIC approved contractors.
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I'll see what I can do, I might be able to get a copy of the joke of an EICR I was looking at last week.
I'll see of I can get some pictures of the **** I've come across at the school next time I'm there.
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I would guess the bigger the company(especially using subbies alot) the more the standards could drop and poor work does slip past, but in my experience with smaller outfits and one man bands, Approved contractors generally do have a higher standard of work
G
Guest77
That is interesting Dave, it is 10 here in Glos, and still tough to get on that list, so 4, well it is a cartel isn't it lol and wrong really at that low amount.
G
Guest77
Yes I agree, there will obviously be a few bad eggs in every county but generally yes they will be of a higher standard because as wirepuller pointed out the inspection process is thourough in the approved contractor accreditation system, regarding the Domestic installer lol, well no comment there.
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Yes it is a low amount....each of the 4 is a major construction company, ie always one of the big boys, and must hold the office within the county. Well they all have a sub office in every county. Each must only subcontract within the local county, which is a good thing if your on the approved list and for local companies. The Main Contractor list lasts 4 years then is re Tendered.
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So today I was working on an event for armed forces day. Local council organised job so site power was done by their NICEIC approved contractor. And it was downright dangerous!
The main stage had one feed from a generator and one from a nearby building with a TNCS supply. I couldn't see an earth rod anywhere near the generator and there was no effort to link the two earth systems. And they didn't bother to bond any of the metal structure. They obviously had never heard of bs7909, let alone complied with it!
But I guess it's ok cos they were NICEIC registered and it was only one member of the royal family we had on the stage for them to kill.
The same company is responsible for the emergency lighting in a local theatre, they've fed each unit via an FCU bolted to the side of the nearest socket.
The main stage had one feed from a generator and one from a nearby building with a TNCS supply. I couldn't see an earth rod anywhere near the generator and there was no effort to link the two earth systems. And they didn't bother to bond any of the metal structure. They obviously had never heard of bs7909, let alone complied with it!
But I guess it's ok cos they were NICEIC registered and it was only one member of the royal family we had on the stage for them to kill.
The same company is responsible for the emergency lighting in a local theatre, they've fed each unit via an FCU bolted to the side of the nearest socket.
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Nope, JC electrics
One of their blokes was in my class at tech college when I was an apprentice. He dropped out in the second year because he was thick as pig ****, funny how he's still doing the job 10 years later
One of their blokes was in my class at tech college when I was an apprentice. He dropped out in the second year because he was thick as pig ****, funny how he's still doing the job 10 years later
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They're on the guildford borough council list though
Reply to Working in Schools? in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net
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