Accenta Min G4 with AG6 problem bell

[chilworth]

Hello, I'm new here and after some advice. I'm installing an Accenta Mini G4 Alarm with Honeywell AG6 Bell (SAB). I tested the system with a battery only and everything seemed to be working fine - once I fixed a fault on one of the RKPs. My problem is now I've connected to the mains and apply the battery link to the AG6, the bell sounds and won't go off. Removing the battery link silences the bell but it won't then trigger with the bell test function from the panel. Everything inside the house works as it should and when the alarm is activated the internal siren sounds. I also can't get the strobe on the AG6 to work. I've seen posts on other sites talking about problems with the AG6 but not many solutions. Can anyone offer any help please?

Thanks

 

[oldtimer]

External Sounder
Now this causes electricians more problems than any other thing on a domestic alarm system so a bit of history first and that’s why I have given it its own post

They used to be and still do get called bellboxes so the thing is why are they so complicated well they are only hard if you try to apply electrician mentality to them so in electrics you switch the live but in electronics or alarms you switch the negative.

External sounder are sometimes called the SAB Self Actuating Bell or SCB Self Contained Bell they still use Bell even although they were phased out about 25 years ago so why does this matter well a bell was a big heavy load for the alarm panel with the event of microprocessor control panels they needed smaller batteries as they to a smaller load this applied to PIRs they drew 100mA now they are more like 10-20mA Bells would draw 1A the old electronic horn drew 25mA the newer sounders are piezo units.
Plus you had to build the box with separate components i.e. box ,sounder,strobe,sab module tamper switch but today it comes as a complete unit

So let’s break it down

Sounder box
Made from polycarbonate these are designed not to decay with UV light and they hold the equipment.

Sounder electronic piezo 100 and odd decibels

Strobe light
Regulations say that the sounder must go off after 20 minutes only problem was when the police arrived the sounder was off and this caused confusion so they put in a latched strobe light or visual alarm that stays on after the 20 minutes and aids the police to tell them which building is in alarm and also prepares the owner that their alarm has been activated.

SAB module
Self actuating well yes because it has an onboard battery that is constantly charged from the control panel but if you have a power cut and the battery runs down or a burglar tries to rip the CP or the external sounder off the wall then it will Self Actuate when the module loses its charging supply from the CP.
Hence when you get a power cut at 2 am and the battery is flat the owner phone you up to say the alarm is going off and he cannot silence it.
Also the tamper switch or spring is wired into this as well so if anyone tries to remove the front cover the system will go into full alarm.

Comfort Led’s
People think these are a recent thing when you walk past a box at night and the Led’s are twinkling at you plus this is a comfort to know your system is ok plus these boxes have diagnostic Led’s non them that change mode or colour to tell you what the problem is. I used to fit a steady LED on my boxes 25 years ago maybe I should have patented it LOL
Watchdog timer
Remember the sounder should only activate for 20 minutes if longer the owner can be charged under the Noise Pollution Act 1974 and breach of the peace but some people can set the timer in the control panel for 99 minutes so this does exactly what it says on the tin it will cut the sounder off after 20 minutes

Wiring to the external sounder
Yes I know there are some oddballs out there but we will stick to the standard unit as we are only looking at domestic.

Red 12vdc+ the is the hold off positive supply this charges the battery and powers the sounder,strobe.

Black 12vdc- this is the hold off negative supply this charges the battery.

Yellow 12vdc- this is a switched negative from the tamper switch or spring to tell the control panel that it is normal and this is monitored 24 hours a day.

Blue 12vdc- this is a switched negative from the control to the external sounder and this supplies the peizo sounder. This will switch the sounder off after the time period set in the CP expires Should not be more than 20 minutes I set it for 10 minutes

Green 12cdc- This is a switched negative from the CP that supplies the strobe light note this is latched once activated this will not switch off until the CP has been reset

White spare core REMEMBER this is my colour code I know others have different ideas

 

[oldtimer]

Just to add the sounder will not silence until you press down the tamper switch or put the sounder cover on with the fixing screw pushing the tamper switch down

 

[chilworth]

Just to add the sounder will not silence until you press down the tamper switch or put the sounder cover on with the fixing screw pushing the tamper switch down

Thanks for this. Yes, I should have added that it doesn't silence even when the tamper is engaged.

I am going to check the whole thing over again this weekend but I wondered if the tamper switch has shifted from the wall. It has a 2 way switch - 1 engaged by the wall and 2 by the cover screw.

I'm certain the wiring is correct - even though I used different colours to those you suggested.

Could a fuse have blown in the panel?

 

[oldtimer]

listen my name is not Mystic Meg re fuse what to do is remove the cover then put the screw in This lets you work on the unit without chasing to tail with the tamper switch

 

[chilworth]

Thanks for the advice. Thinking about it, I doubt it's the tamper as the panel would show a "tamper fault" but I'll do as you suggest.

 

[Submains]

What an excellent response oldtimer and concise explanation.

To simplify things a bit further using the same colours as "Mystic Meg"


G4 AG6
Panel Bell Colours

Stb - to ST- Green
T to -R Yellow
A to V- Black
D to V+ Red
B to SW Blue

 

[oldtimer]

Thanks for the advice. Thinking about it, I doubt it's the tamper as the panel would show a "tamper fault" but I'll do as you suggest.

Remember this panel has a common tamper so you need to put the panel lid back on

 

[tazz]

Well boken down, and explained Oldtimer

 

[oldtimer]

I was always told when explaining something target it at the level the person will understand

 

[Tafia]

I too am having problems with a Honeywell AG6 Sounder and Logic Six panel and all cables to the bell box are as described here.


This is the second panel showing the same problem, that is, the panel Error LED is lit. When the first panel Error LED showed, I called Honeywell Tech Support and the lady told me to remove the link from Zone 1 and bridge it to the S+ terminal. Power up and swipe fob and wait for the beep. She said this would clear the Error LED. It didn’t so I called her again. We repeated the link check as above and still the Error LED was lit. Tech Support told me the panel must be faulty. It was replaced by the wholesaler.

We have just installed the replacement panel and have the same problem with the Error LED being lit.

Also, the instructions for the bell box say it must be completely wired and then the battery link should be connected. When we do this, the sounder goes off even with the tamper switch on the bell box closed manually. There is no mention in the instructions for the bell box that this will happen. We connected the bell box to the panel as per connections posted in this forum.


There is no LED lit in the bell box when the control panel is powered up and the sounder does not operate when the tamper spring is released in the panel by removing the cover.

I have seen several references to these problems on line and assume that Honeywell must have the fix but I cannot find it.

 

[tazz]

The fob has not been programmed so will show error, if you read the whole of this post you will realise why the siren is sounding when you connect wiring up.

 

[Tafia]

Hi Tazz, Thanks for your response.

Not sure I follow. Two fobs come with the panel and are already programmed for the panel. The panel showed "Error" before any fob was placed near it.

As I mentioned, there is nothing in the bell box blurb which says the sounder will activate when the battery link is put in place though the panel instructions do warn that when power is first applied to the panel it will trigger an alarm which is then cancelled by application of the fob. It set off the panel speaker and the internal extension speaker but not the bell box sounder.

No LED shows at the bell box to show power is reaching it via the box anti-tamper switch as mentioned in the bell box instructions and there is no sound from the bell box. I haven't seen the post that refers to the bell box sounder going off when the battery link is applied.


Cheers,

T.

 

[Tafia]

The fob has not been programmed so will show error, if you read the whole of this post you will realise why the siren is sounding when you connect wiring up.

Tazz,

Re the bell box sounder triggering when the battery link is applied, are you referring to this post from Oldtimer?

"SAB module
Self actuating well yes because it has an onboard battery that is constantly charged from the control panel but if you have a power cut and the battery runs down or a burglar tries to rip the CP or the external sounder off the wall then it will Self Actuate when the module loses its charging supply from the CP.
Hence when you get a power cut at 2 am and the battery is flat the owner phone you up to say the alarm is going off and he cannot silence it.
Also the tamper switch or spring is wired into this as well so if anyone tries to remove the front cover the system will go into full alarm."

There is nothing in the instructions to say that if the panel is not powered up when the link is applied in the bell box then the sounder will think the mains has been lost and thus trigger an alarm, though now you point it out, it makes sense. Instructions say to fit the link before powering up the panel.

When the sounder triggered when the the battery link was applied I later tried to connect the battery link with the panel in walk-test mode thinking that would silence the sounder but it didn't. And we still have the "Error" and lack of LED on the bell box issue.

Walk test checks on PIR,s and main and exit loops are all good.

​

 

[tazz]

Ok lets sort out one problem at a time, if you have used the link between zone 1 and set+ as ADE has asked, then this wipes the memory, (NVM), so the panel will no longer recognise any fobs, and an Error led will show when presenting the fob. To reprogram a fob power down panel, (battery and mains), refit wire link zone 1 to set+ and power up by mains, hold the fob until panel bleeps, I think zone 1 will show. then remove wire link. With bell box check voltage accross A and D you should have 13v, if not check fuse 5

 

[Tafia]

Ok lets sort out one problem at a time, if you have used the link between zone 1 and set+ as ADE has asked, then this wipes the memory, (NVM), so the panel will no longer recognise any fobs, and an Error led will show when presenting the fob. To reprogram a fob power down panel, (battery and mains), refit wire link zone 1 to set+ and power up by mains, hold the fob until panel bleeps, I think zone 1 will show. then remove wire link. With bell box check voltage accross A and D you should have 13v, if not check fuse 5

Thanks for your patience Tazz,

I did reply to this last night but for some reason it has not appeared here. The panel I had the initial problem with was replaced by the wholesaler and this one has had no link from zone 1 to set +. The Error light was lit on the first panel as soon as I powered it up and this replacement has done the same thing. The fobs talk to the panel OK and the walk tests are all OK. I can put it into Day mode but the error light is still lit along with the Day LED.

I can't check the voltage to the bell box until Monday.


Thanks again.

T

 

[sedgy34]

They changed the connections from the book as I found out use your own colours

 

[Tafia]

Thanks for this Sedgy34.

We used this diagram as provided by the distributor; looks the same as yours except for the core colours used.

http://www.moretonalarms.com/pdf_downloads/Bellbox_Wiring_MAS.pdf

 

[sedgy34]

Make sure the switch on the back is on brick not the mortar
you could have a faulty siren but that's very rare

 

[oldtimer]

Listen I have seen this too many times with equipment being taken back because the person installing it does not understand how it works how do I know this cos I have been doing it for 29 years.

So best thing to do is get a beer then put a cover on the dining room table then make a temporary mains lead fit all links in the CP and learn how to work it now when you do that get an outside sounder with 2 metres of cable and wire it up then when you get this working its time to install both and you cannot go wrong

 

[Tafia]

Cheers, I have checked the tamper for continuity and no tamper light is lit on the panel, just Day and Error.

 

[Tafia]

Listen I have seen this too many times with equipment being taken back because the person installing it does not understand how it works how do I know this cos I have been doing it for 29 years.

So best thing to do is get a beer then put a cover on the dining room table then make a temporary mains lead fit all links in the CP and learn how to work it now when you do that get an outside sounder with 2 metres of cable and wire it up then when you get this working its time to install both and you cannot go wrong

Thanks Oldtimer. So, do you know why both panels are showing Error on power up? Blurb says it is the easiest panel to install yet many folks seem to be having the same trouble. This query Googled shows lots of results

Yes, I realise you are not Mystic Meg as you mention above.

 

[tazz]

The error lights is a program error, but as oldtimer says lets get back to basics, i would thaught the helpline forgot to tell you to fit all links back before linking out z1 and S+, so this is what we need to do first, remove all cables and fit all factory links back, then we can reset and test the panel.

 

[oldtimer]

ALL panels show fault on power up Hows that you say because it power fails to fault so when you power it up you make sure your links are in ie PA, SAB , Tampers and even zones Then press the spring in and reset the panel and it will clear Then set & unset the panel . When you have proved that then release the spring the panel will go into fault condition then silence it now you can start putting the devices in knowing if there is a problem it aint the panel. Plus use your multimeter because this is you best friend doing alarms once you have done this then do the sounder last why ? because it will pee people off if you activate it several times whilst installing the alarm.

I have used this method for 29 years and to be fair your average domestic spark will run a mile from alarms because they do not understand them or the theory behind them.

Also read my bit on so you want to know more about alarms its all there

 

[Tafia]

In my reply to Tazz last night which seemed to get lost in cyber space, I mentioned that when I installed the first panel I saw a sticker on the pcb which said the guarantee ran out in December 2011. The panel was bought “new” in Dec 2012. There was an IC in there with what looked like a date on it: something like 29/12/2003.

So this panel was sold a year after the Honeywell warranty had expired. The panel was returned as faulty to the supplier as instructed by Honeywell Tech Support. Supplier sent it to Honeywell who told them it was out of warranty; buy a new panel. So according to Honeywell, their warranty expired before the panel was sold. Neat idea!

The suppliers have been very good and sent me a replacement at no cost but lo; when I opened it up, it had the same expiry date for the warranty. Seems that either the suppliers sent me the same panel back, which I doubt, or they have a stock of Logic Six panels on their shelves with the makers warranty out of time.

I then wondered if the fobs may have lost their “memory” having been so long without use but surely they are inert and pick up their energy from being presented to the panel. They work in the same way as antitheft RFID chips on stock in tool stores for example.

I know the Error LED lights to show an unrecognised fob but the fobs that came with the panel are supposed to be pre-programmed to be recognised by the panel. I had not wiped the memory by linking Zone 1 to S+.

The panel does react to the fobs which suggests they are OK. As mentioned, the Error light came on as soon as power was applied. The key fobs had not been presented at that time so why would the Error LED light up.

If the above scenario is a possibility, then perhaps I should follow Tazz’s suggestion to wipe the memory and re-programme the fobs. Have I been fooled by the fact that the fobs appear to be accepted by the panel but have actually lost their “memory”

I wrote this before I saw the further responses from Tazz and Oldtimer. Worth leaving in for the warranty saga.

 

[Tafia]

The error lights is a program error, but as oldtimer says lets get back to basics, i would thaught the helpline forgot to tell you to fit all links back before linking out z1 and S+, so this is what we need to do first, remove all cables and fit all factory links back, then we can reset and test the panel.

OK sir, will remove all cables and refit links ASAP.

Thanks again.

 

[Tafia]

Hi folks,

I am embarrassed.
From my eye level, when I look at the panel, I see both the Day and the Error LED's ports clearly shining, hence my query.

I now realise that the green Error port was in fact picking up a reflection from the Day LED and when I bob down and look at the panel head on, I see that only the Day LED is actually lit.


The bell box is working as it should with the strobe also flashing perhaps six times to show the system is set.


Thanks again to all for your time and patience and apologies for my mistake. Perhaps we have all learned something: especially me!! I hope the wiring diagram for various alarm panels and bell boxes I posted above will be of use to others.


Best wishes,

T.

 

[oldtimer]

thanks for being so honest T appreciate the feedback but confused with regards to strobe flashing as this should only happen during a fault or an activation ie strobe is a visual alarm indication

 

[Tafia]

thanks for being so honest T appreciate the feedback but confused with regards to strobe flashing as this should only happen during a fault or an activation ie strobe is a visual alarm indication

Thanks for understanding, Oldtimer.

Page 4 of the operating instructions ( green booklet) does say that when the system is set: "the external strobe will operate for 5 seconds which provides confirmation of the SET operation".

See: http://www.responseelectronics.com/manuals/Logic_Six Install.pdf

Towards the end of the document.

Thanks again

 

[oldtimer]

Yep ok my mistake this used to happen to the old optima panel if you set the exit / entry to chime

 

[Tafia]

Yep ok my mistake this used to happen to the old optima panel if you set the exit / entry to chime

Just fitted the bell box battery and thankfully the external sounder did not trigger when I removed the anti tamper screw and the cover though the strobe flashed and the internal sounder triggered. ( I had my ear defenders on) This is in line with the blurb which says in Day mode any tamper only sets off the internal noise.

I can't see the LED on the bell box I was expecting to see when the system is set though everything else seems to be in order.

May be because the sun is making it invisible!

I couldn't understand why the panel was responding to the fob and yet Honeywell techie lady told me I had to re-learn the fobs.

Thanks again for your kind assistance.

I'll drink a toast to the Electricians Forum members this evening.

Best wishes

T.

 

[tazz]

As long as its all ok, result

 

[Tafia]

As long as its all ok, result

Thanks Tazz; it was pure chance that the panel was at the exact height to make it look as if both LEDs were lit.

I was glad to note that when I was up the ladder with my ear defenders on to put the battery jumper in place that the external sounder stayed silent. Big noise from the extension speaker inside the property though.

The red LED on the bell box is not visible during daylight but glows bright at night.

Thanks again to all for your help, patience and support.

Best regards

T.

 

[TCLeics]

Hi all, wondering if anyone has experienced the same fault as me on an AG6 souder box?

I fitted it about 4 months ago, no problems, all been working fine, but the other night, we were woken by the sounder making loud clicking and bleeping noises whilst the alarm was set. Since, it has done it intermittently day and night whilst set, The sounder sounds correctly when tested, and the alarm control panel shows no trigger. Thanks in advance if anyone can help.

 

[tazz]

usually bad connected to siren terminals,

 

[TCLeics]

Thanks, will have a look in the box if it stops snowing!

 

[TCLeics]

Strange one? Wires all seem ok, and the system has been fine since fitting the AG6 in November. Checking the wires, if I disconnect the Red+ wire, disabling the outside electric, the alarm goes off and sounds properly, if I do a bell test, it sounds properly, but after re-fitting the + wire, the siren is chirping at a fast rate. I switched off the mains supply, so it was only using the back up battery in the main control box, but on switching on again, got the fast chirping sound for about 20 secs. I can only think the AG6 panel has gone faulty? Thanks for any help in advance.

 

[tazz]

More likely to be the siren unit or wiring

 

[TCLeics]

The siren actually sounds properly in some situations, panic button, or alarm trigger. I read on a forum that weather can damage the circuit board in the bell box, and cause screeching sounds, and that's pretty much what it's doing. E-mailed the supplier and he said it is possible, but need to buy a new box and send other back 1st, so looks like that's my only option at present, thanks.

 

[TCLeics]

Hi, just replaced my Bell box, and still have the same problem! Done a few tests, and it seems, although 12v is coming from my transformer in the control panel, 12v is not getting thru the circuit board. If back up battery is connected, the internal sounder is good, but if I disconnect the backup, just having mains, it goes very quiet and slow. So, I'm guessing, going to have to replace the control panel, loads of wires! Thanks.

 

[ARK]

is the internal fuse ok

 

[TCLeics]

There are 3 internal glass fuses, 2 of them, if I remove them, the alarm goes off from the SAB, so guess they are ok, if I remove the other, mains light goes out, so guess that is ok also. Thanks

 

[tazz]

The control panel has a total load of 1amp, how many pirs, bells etc are you running off this panel...?

 

[TCLeics]

3 PIR's, 1 bell, It's the same system that's been in for years, just replaced the back up battery last year and the bell box, only cos it was looking dated and wanted a more slimline one. All been working fine since fitting them about September time, until this chirping noise was coming from the bell box. If I put a tester on the wires that charge the back up battery, it shows 12v, but like I said, if the back up is disconnected, the internal sounder is very week, and goes ok again when the back up is back on, so the back up must be getting full charge.

 

[tazz]

Ok your not running more than this panel can handle, so is looking like the panel is not supplying enough power, last check before panel change is to disconnect aux cables, and test siren again, without battery, just incase a fault is pulling the panel down.

 

[TCLeics]

At the minute, I've disconnected everything, didn't want it sounding during the night! If I disconnected the back up, the alarm sounds, even tho the mains is still connected, so it must sense wires cut via tamper, and sound via SAB, so guessing the mains circuit isn't allowing the full electricity flow thru it to power the unit.

 

[tazz]

If the alarm sounds when back up battery is disconnected the the battery fuse has gone, the bell should hold off on just mains

 

[TCLeics]

My line of thinking was, if all 3 fuses do something when I pull them out, they all must be working, but will check them tomorrow with a tester to make sure before ordering a new control panel, thanks.

 

[tazz]

It is starting to looking like the panel

 

[Tee]

Hi guys. Interesting thread with lots of knowledge out there. Can anyone confirm if mains supply fails and battery back up runs down, will this activate the alarm even in the unarmed condition. Panel is Accenta g4 with remote keypad, bell is Honeywell ag6.