Non-Harmonized cable in Enclosure

[dellboy13]

Hi All

I am currently designing a complete home automation system based around CBUS dimmers and relays. I have now built the enclosures with the dimmers and relays in so I can start programming / testing them. I have going to get a full spark to install the actual cables and connect the lights.
All the CBUS units need breakers feeding them and fuses on their outputs, which I have wired using red and black 1.5mm cables to DIN rail terminators & MCB in the cabinet which are obviously not Harmonized. Is this OK, the spark (when I find one) will do everything external with Harmonized cable!

 

[Charlie_]

It's ok as long as you have everything correctly identified by a suitable marking system

 

[dellboy13]

Thanks Charlie, I spoke to the NICEIC this morning and their technical adviser said that it was OK but I have to sleeve each of the cable with Blue or Brown sleeve to indicate use, if I had to do that I might as well rebuild the setup, it would only by 4 or 5 hours work but a pain in the arse to do.
All cables have been individually numbered, what do you think of the install below, should I re-do it or not bother. Fancy a trip down to North Essex to commission it?

 

[Welchyboy1]

If you asked me to do it i would have no problems at all, just an appropriate label on front of the panel, job done


i would not bother sleeving all those cables whats the point, i doubt anyone who lacks the appropriate knowledge would be messing around inside those panels

very neat work by the way!

 

[dellboy13]

Hi Welchyboy1
The house is just getting out of the ground now, so I will being pinging you a PM in about 5 or 6 months time for a bit of install and commissioning work :smile5:

I had BBC training when I was a junior engineer, so a bit anally retentive on neatness and paperwork :dizzy2:

 

[davesparks]

I would be less concerned with the colour of the cables than I would the din rail fuseholder a being exposed when the lid is on. I can't see enough detail in the pic but they don't normally afford the right protection against direct contact. Also what type of fuses are they and what are they there to protect?
What type of cable have you used for building this?

It could have been a lot neater with a bit of panel trunking in there!

Be careful about your choice of electrician, many won't have a clue how to safely test or get meaningful test results on the outgoing cables from such a dimming unit!

 

[spark 68]

I would be less concerned with the colour of the cables than I would the din rail fuseholder a being exposed when the lid is on. I can't see enough detail in the pic but they don't normally afford the right protection against direct contact. Also what type of fuses are they and what are they there to protect?
What type of cable have you used for building this?

It could have been a lot neater with a bit of panel trunking in there!

Be careful about your choice of electrician, many won't have a clue how to safely test or get meaningful test results on the outgoing cables from such a dimming unit!

Those fuse carriers look like Wiedmuller terminal fuses, they take standard 20mm fuses, they are normally enclosed inside of the panels, I don't think they are certified for external use.

Agree about the (lack of) trunking.

 

[davesparks]

They look like a standard pull-out fuse carrier, which exposes live parts when withdrawn, which is easily done without the use of a key or tool.
But what are those fuses there for? Will they discriminate with the incoming MCBs? Will they safely handle the fault current? It doesn't take much fault current to make some 20mm fuses literally explode.

There are many questions I would be asking before doing anything with it if I was asked to install it.
Ventilation, IP rating, type testing?

 

[dellboy13]

No cables have been run in the building yet as it is approximately 225mm high so far (just out of the ground). I was intending to run 1.5mm Twin and Earth for all the home automation circuits (all limited to 1A).
Basically the Dimmers & Relay need to be feed by a 10A MCB and each output needs to be protected by either a 1A Type C MCB or 1A glass fuse (8 dimmer channels per dimmer unit and 12 relay channels per Relay unit). There is a total of 7 dimmer/relay units with 64 outputs to protect, so I was a cheap skate and went for the cheaper fuse option.

The other reason that I went for the din rail fuse option is that I wanted to keep it really neat, so the idea was to run 4" square trunking down the left hand side, then along the bottom, then the cables from the house for the home automation side enter the cabinet from the bottom and feed straight up to the Din rail termination units and fuses, ie each T&E would go straight up to the termination point set, not having to split and go to 3 different locations in the cabinet. - Bad idea or am I on the right track?

Regarding the fuses raised out of the enclosure, I was going to get the lock kit for that cabinet, so I could easily change a fuse if needed but would be locked from general access. I had to raise the din rail to achieve this, if it is not acceptable I can drop it back down and cover the fuses.

I was going to use slotted trunking in the cabinet but there are 4 cabinet in total, so going through from one to another was going to be a little messy, so I thought I would lace them in neatly instead, again is this a bad idea, should I re-do with trunking?

The reason that I am doing this is to configure the system before hand & test and then allow the entire lot to be moved in to the new build (once up) on the large board and speed up the second fix process.
There is also 2 other smaller boards to make up!

 

[spark 68]

They look like a standard pull-out fuse carrier, which exposes live parts when withdrawn, which is easily done without the use of a key or tool.
But what are those fuses there for? Will they discriminate with the incoming MCBs? Will they safely handle the fault current? It doesn't take much fault current to make some 20mm fuses literally explode.

They are a flip out type, but they can detach quite easily the (carrier part), here is a pic, we used loads of these for feeding digi multifunction meters and the like when building panels, they are secondary fuses.

 

[ackbarthestar]

I think the colour coding within a 'machine' type enclosure would come under a different BS number so the colours do not have to be in accordance with BS7671 as long as they are identified which you have achieved.

so I thought I would lace them in neatly instead, again is this a bad idea, should I re-do with trunking?

I personally wouldn't tie wrap together the neutrals and lives separately, particularly if you are running ac circuits due to electromagnetic inductive effects.

Otherwise, I wish all electricians produced cabinets as neat as yours......

 

[spark 68]

I think the colour coding within a 'machine' type enclosure would come under a different BS number so the colours do not have to be in accordance with BS7671 as long as they are identified which you have achieved.

Exactly!, it has buggerall to do with the Niccy what colours are used inside the panel, so long as they are identifiable

 

[davesparks]

Exactly!, it has buggerall to do with the Niccy what colours are used inside the panel, so long as they are identifiable

It has a lot to do with the regulations governing panel building, along with the type of cable, IP rating etc etc. Some of these regulations are law, although I don't personally know enough about them to advise on here about it.

From my point of view if I am asked to install something like this I will be looking for CE marking and a declaration of conformity before I fit it.

 

[Marvo]

I often make panels without trunking, lacing and looming was part of my apprenticeship so I don't think trunking is necessary and I certainly wouldn't rewire it for trunking. I'm sure the exposed fuse holders are also fine if you put a shock hazard warning and a lock on the door.

Good luck finding someone to commission

 

[davesparks]

I never said trunking was necessary, just that it could have been neater with it. I completely agree it could also have been neater with lacing or cable ties.

 

[spark 68]

It has a lot to do with the regulations governing panel building, along with the type of cable, IP rating etc etc. Some of these regulations are law, although I don't personally know enough about them to advise on here about it.
.

The IP ratings are almost (if not exactly) the same as BS7671, namely suitable for the intended environment, minimum IP 4X for the top surface and IP2X for the rest or higher depending on environment.

The colours can be anything except Green, and G/Y this latter only used for CPCs, so long as they are identifiable alpha-numerically.

Inside of the panel is governed by other standards than BS7671, this is also outside the scope of the Nic

 

[Marvo]

I wasn't referring to anything you said Dave, the OP asked if he should rewire it for trunking.

 

[dellboy13]

Thank you all for the advice, I will un-clip the neutrals and lives and keep it tidy with in slotted trunking.

Regarding the fused din rail terminators, do you think a lock on the front door would be adequate or should I push the fuse holders back and cover the slot? When you open the fuse holder, you can see exposed metal which would be live but it is right at the back of the holder, you could not touch it with your finger, only with a screwdriver. The actual ones I used are:-

 

[spark 68]

Thank you all for the advice, I will un-clip the neutrals and lives and keep it tidy with in slotted trunking.

Regarding the fused din rail terminators, do you think a lock on the front door would be adequate or should I push the fuse holders back and cover the slot? When you open the fuse holder, you can see exposed metal which would be live but it is right at the back of the holder, you could not touch it with your finger, only with a screwdriver. The actual ones I used are:-

If the front cover is lockable, or requires a tool to open, you should be fine, I would perhaps have a warning --- Volts label too, although not required in BS7671,most panels I have built do have this label.

 

[dellboy13]

Sorry I missed the posting from Marvo before posting my last one.

Anybody disagree with the lock idea? I personally think a lock is more secure that the 4 bolts that hold the front on but I know what governing bodies are like!!!

All the gear is either UK Hager or Schneider Electric and purchased from UK wholesalers, so fully UK CE approved. The cabinets are IP40 and installed in a small plant rooms

 

[dellboy13]

Thank you spark 68

 

[dellboy13]

Out of interest, has anybody on here had any experience with CBUS home automation? Any tips?

 

[davesparks]

Sorry I missed the posting from Marvo before posting my last one.

Anybody disagree with the lock idea? I personally think a lock is more secure that the 4 bolts that hold the front on but I know what governing bodies are like!!!

All the gear is either UK Hager or Schneider Electric and purchased from UK wholesalers, so fully UK CE approved. The cabinets are IP40 and installed in a small plant rooms

The individual components being CE marked doesn't automatically make the completed unit CE marked!

 

[dellboy13]

God this is getting complicated!

The problem is that I have spoken to 3 local residential sparks, I spent over an hour trying to explain to the guy how a CBUS system work (control via a bus system, sending control signals to central distribution), he just did not get it, so he was off the list. The second said it was too complicated for him, he basically works on 17th edition 14 way boards and nothing else and the 3rd guy was an Aussie who was a nice chap but I did not believe he was a qualified spark and the pictures of his work was nothing to be proud of. Hopefully Welchyboy1 will still be up for a chat in 5 months time!

The problem is the system is residential but not a standard single board setup, more commercial but the commercial sparks would not touch a residential install (saying that I only tried one local company)

 

[Marvo]

The individual components being CE marked doesn't automatically make the completed unit CE marked!

We'd only expect CE certification of the complete assembly if it was sold as a mass produced pre-assembled control panel. If we built a panel specifically for a job such as lighting control for a particular premises it would normally require type test certification.

 

[davesparks]

It's not too different from a stage lighting installation, a box full of dimmers controlled from a remote location via some form of data signal.

In response to something you mentioned above, why do you want the electrician to run 1.5 T&E for the outgoings?

 

[davesparks]

We'd only expect CE certification of the complete assembly if it was sold as a mass produced pre-assembled control panel. If we built a panel specifically for a job such as lighting control for a particular premises it would normally require type test certification.

Fair enough, as I said I don't know enough about the rules. But do know that any custom made distribution or control unit we buy in comes CE marked with a unique serial number.

 

[spark 68]

I was about to say similar to Marvo^^

Dave sparks also alluded to this too, I would be more concerned fitting a panel that was not type tested/approved.

 

[Marvo]

.....The problem is that I have spoken to 3 local residential sparks

You're speaking to the wrong people. I'm not saying there aren't any residential sparks that can't install and commission such a control panel but they'll certainly be few and far between. I'm not sure if Welchyboy has CBUS experience though, if he doesn't fancy the work I'd speak to someone like Rob or Robotstar5 if I were you although I'm not sure if they're anywhere near you.

 

[davesparks]

God this is getting complicated!

The problem is that I have spoken to 3 local residential sparks, I spent over an hour trying to explain to the guy how a CBUS system work (control via a bus system, sending control signals to central distribution), he just did not get it, so he was off the list. The second said it was too complicated for him, he basically works on 17th edition 14 way boards and nothing else and the 3rd guy was an Aussie who was a nice chap but I did not believe he was a qualified spark and the pictures of his work was nothing to be proud of. Hopefully Welchyboy1 will still be up for a chat in 5 months time!

The problem is the system is residential but not a standard single board setup, more commercial but the commercial sparks would not touch a residential install (saying that I only tried one local company)

I'll do it, if the price is right and the equipment is compliant.

 

[Knobhead]

Anybody disagree with the lock idea? I personally think a lock is more secure that the 4 bolts that hold the front on but I know what governing bodies are like!!!

A lock is secure until it’s unlocked. It does and will happen.

Find a new type of fuse holder that doesn’t allow access to live terminals or use miniature MCB’s. Schneider make suitable DIN rail mountable units.

I wouldn’t worry about internal cable colours, you’ve got bigger problems.

I’ve had 20mm 110V fuses explode in those holders, they’ve got a nice vent in the front for some of the shrapnel to exit from, leaving the fuse caps in the holder. They aren’t rated for fault making/load breaking. They haven’t got a lot going for them.

 

[davesparks]

Now now Tony, I'm sure it will always be locked...............With the key left in the door so it doesn't get lost!

 

[Marvo]

Fair enough, as I said I don't know enough about the rules. But do know that any custom made distribution or control unit we buy in comes CE marked with a unique serial number.

I was about to say similar to Marvo^^

Dave sparks also alluded to this too, I would be more concerned fitting a panel that was not type tested/approved.

I can't say with any authority the UK requirements, we work under ISO standards mostly but I'd doubt there'd be type testing CE requirements applicable mainly because I've never seen discussions about this in numerous other threads where panel building has been discussed.

I'm not sure if the fuses are correctly rated, panel protection is coordinated and cascaded. He did say they were 1A outputs so they're probably PWM dimmer outputs.

 

[spark 68]

I can't say with any authority the UK requirements, we work under ISO standards mostly but I'd doubt there'd be type testing CE requirements applicable mainly because I've never seen discussions about this in numerous other threads where panel building has been discussed.

More about conforming to the low voltage directive than anything else, and certain tests being carried out, hi-pot etc. the CE marking can be self certed, and is no guarantee that the design is approved.

 

[PEG]

Hi dude, I think you will have to do a bit of searching,to find a domestic spark,who also has CanBus experience.

It is technology which has found a home firstly,in the automotive/plant sectors (cheers,Bosch...) and the fault finding on these systems requires a different approach/equipment.

Whenever i try to imagine a node defining arbitration...my mind goes to old episodes of the "Clangers" :conehead:

There is a lot to be said for cables getting warm,pulling in contactors...

 

[davesparks]

Hi dude, I think you will have to do a bit of searching,to find a domestic spark,who also has CanBus experience.

It is technology which has found a home firstly,in the automotive/plant sectors (cheers,Bosch...) and the fault finding on these systems requires a different approach/equipment.

Whenever i try to imagine a node defining arbitration...my mind goes to old episodes of the "Clangers" :conehead:

There is a lot to be said for cables getting warm,pulling in contactors...

CanBus and Cbus are different things (as far as I know), just to add to the fun. CanBus is the magic that stops rangerovers from working properly and Cbus is a home automation protocol.
CanBus is also used for the 'chillinet' control system of Zero88's chilli dimmers (theatrical dimmers)

 

[Charlie_]

Is this the first job off this type you have undertaken?
I ask as you don't seem to have any contacts and I also feel you are very premature in building the panels at such an early stage..
Why did you go for a cbus system rather than KNX?
C-Bus is easier to wire but I still prefer KNX sytstems, primarily because it's an open system and you're not tied to one manufacturer, being Clipsal.
I'm sure you should soon find a suitable installer, you need to make sure you have good, clear specification,wiring plan, etc.
Perhaps you need to alter your approach to electricians, what you need doing is very basic but you seem to be making it out to be something else, which I feel is probably scaring them off..
I am currently living in the Isle of Man, just at the final stages of completing a very large residential KNX/DALI/1-10 SYSTEM, using mainly Gira devices and many different makes of drivers,etc.
Despite living in the Isle of Man this doesn't stop me from traveling to other parts of the Empire..

 

[Marvo]

C-BUS is also an open architecture protocol.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I was under the impression, that the CE marking was only applicable if the product was for sale?

 

[Charlie_]

C-BUS is also an open architecture protocol.

Yes it is but that's not what I was referring to..
What I was trying to imply by 'open system' was that C-Bus is exclusive to Clipsal, unlike KNX which is an open protocol..
Sorry if my terminology is misleading

 

[Charlie_]

Thanks Charlie, I spoke to the NICEIC this morning and their technical adviser said that it was OK but I have to sleeve each of the cable with Blue or Brown sleeve to indicate use, if I had to do that I might as well rebuild the setup, it would only by 4 or 5 hours work but a pain in the arse to do.
All cables have been individually numbered, what do you think of the install below, should I re-do it or not bother. Fancy a trip down to North Essex to commission it?

You should definitely redo the whole thing..
The layout is completely wrong.
Do away with the fuses on the outgoing circuits from the dimmers.
Each output is rated at 1 amp this does not mean you need a 1amp fuse.
You need to think about how all the outgoing circuits are going to be dressed in and terminated.
What you need are the WAGO 2002-2201 double deck terminations.
This will allow the outgoing live and neutrals to be terminated on top of one another.
Get this right now you will avoid a disaster in a few months time
If I can manage to upload them I will post some photos of the panels I've done here.

 

[dellboy13]

Hi Charlie_
The CBUS states that each output needs to be protected by either a MCB or fuse for the protection of the unit. The integrator that I meet in London said he uses and I should use

but I decided against these has I thought it would mean the T&E coming in would be very dense along the bottom of the unit. When I spoke to the integrator about this he then advised me then to go for 3 separate terminators which will spread out the incoming cables.

The incoming circuit were going to be feed in from the bottom, the cables for the top row would go behind the lower row (the din rails have just under 2 1/2" of clear space behind). The incoming feeds were going to be taken down 4" trunking to the left hand side and long the bottom in the same trunking.

PS, If I want to upload photos for a forum I normally load them onto Photo and image hosting, free photo galleries, photo editing and the site give you URLs to copy and paste for forums.

 

[Charlie_]

The information you have been given is incorrect.
You only need to protect the incoming side of the dimmers.
The way I usually do this is an MCB or RCBO supplying the dimmer which is then linked to the input of each channel or you could also take a seperate supply to each channel input from its own MCB/RCBO..
Each channel of the dimmer unit incorporates short circuit cut- out protection against installation wiring faults, lamp failure, and excessive loading. If a cut-out condition occurs, the channel is automatically reset if the fault/overload is cleared within a few seconds — otherwise the channel is latched off, and a reset occurs once a channel is toggled OFF and ON.

On the panels I have wired all the dimmers, relays, etc are located at the bottom with the outgoing slices all located towards the top which allows all outgoing circuitry to be nearly dressed in from the top..

Will try and have a go at the photo upload to give you some examples

 

[Charlie_]

 

[davesparks]

The information you have been given is incorrect.
You only need to protect the incoming side of the dimmers.
The way I usually do this is an MCB or RCBO supplying the dimmer which is then linked to the input of each channel or you could also take a seperate supply to each channel input from its own MCB/RCBO..
Each channel of the dimmer unit incorporates short circuit cut- out protection against installation wiring faults, lamp failure, and excessive loading. If a cut-out condition occurs, the channel is automatically reset if the fault/overload is cleared within a few seconds — otherwise the channel is latched off, and a reset occurs once a channel is toggled OFF and ON.

On the panels I have wired all the dimmers, relays, etc are located at the bottom with the outgoing slices all located towards the top which allows all outgoing circuitry to be nearly dressed in from the top..

Will try and have a go at the photo upload to give you some examples

On all of the multiple channel dimmers I have installed each channel has it's own MCB covering that output, the incoming is protected at the DB or switchfuse feeding it.

On the dimmers I normally install all of the output terminals are in a row running up the centre of the unit with the dimmer modules spread throughout the whole enclosure.

My point: just because you have only installed dimmers with one protection arrangement or terminal layout it does not mean that every dimmer must be made the same!

 

[Charlie_]

On all of the multiple channel dimmers I have installed each channel has it's own MCB covering that output, the incoming is protected at the DB or switchfuse feeding it.

Why?? What make of dimmer unit?

On the dimmers I normally install all of the output terminals are in a row running up the centre of the unit with the dimmer modules spread throughout the whole enclosure.

Sounds messy. Where do you locate your neutral and earths?

My point: just because you have only installed dimmers with one protection arrangement or terminal layout it does not mean that every dimmer must be made the same!

No need to shout!
I'm not saying they must be made the same.
i am just explaining a better way of doing things and highlighting what is not necessary.
I have installed many C-Bus systems as well as KNX systems so I am fully aware of the different types.

 

[dellboy13]

I'm now confused, this is take out of the installation training manual from Clipsal

4.1.2 Output side of C-Bus output unit
To protect the C-Bus dimmer unit and meet the safety requirements of IEC60669-2-1, a MCB should be installed in each output channel (as in Figure 3 & Figure 4).

If I do not install the units as per Clipsal documentation, this would not invalidate the warranty? - A question not a statement!

I obviously understand that the fuse would not protect against short circuit but it would protect from overload!

 

[spark 68]

No need to shout!
I'm not saying they must be made the same.
i am just explaining a better way of doing things and highlighting what is not necessary.
I have installed many C-Bus systems as well as KNX systems so I am fully aware of the different types.

I didn't think Dave was Shouting Charlie, he is making a valid point though, you cannot really make a sweeping statement that the OP is doing it wrong, the manufacturer has told the OP what they want, whilst he does not have to follow their recommendation it may affect any warranty or cause other problems down the line if he does not take their advice into consideration.

I would be more interested to see if the manufacturer had drawn up any design guides for the panels and/or offered any type testing data, and what, if any, mandatory testing needs to be done on the panels.
Does the manufacturer offer any pre-built panels presumably already certified and type tested ?

 

[dellboy13]

I have contacted Clipsal and had a very brief chat, yes there should be overload protection on the outputs as per their install manual. The reasoning being that an electrician could install and sign off a build with say 40w bulbs and 3 months down the line the owner would change all the the bulbs for 100w bulbs and knacker the dimmer unit, leaving the owner to foot the bill.
They also said that if a MCB was used an electrician would have the ability to isolate a single output from a dimmer unit and work on it without having to knock off all 8 channels of a dimmer unit or 12 channels of a relay unit to work one one single fitting.

 

[Charlie_]

Yes I appreciate what you are saying and I'm aware of Clipsal UK requirements but they are not necessary as the units have integral overload protection and also protection is afforded by the supply MCB's.
Ive serviced Clipsal equipment for many years, in the UK and AUS..
The majority of installers do not fit output fuses as they know this is pointless.
I have yet to come across a blown unit due to overload..
The dimmers themselves should be IEC compliant we don't need to make them compliant by other means.

If somebody puts larger lamps in then they can also easily install larger fuses.
It is then down to the integral protection of the dimmer to kick in.