PAT Testing Method ?????

[Dizzy_Maskell]

Guys just for your thoughts,

I was on a site recently and we encountered the local PAT guy, luckily we as a company don't do PAT so I have limited knowledge on the subject.

He was using an extension lead and testing about 10-15 items in one go and then stickering them all up after testing all the items in one hit.

We asked him out of curiosity if you can do this as we where not sure and he advised it is the equivalent of a global test when doing IR testing. He told us that if all 15 etc pass in one go then individually they must pass so of course it is ok.

Just looking for people's opinions on this as I have limited PAT knowledge has anyone else seen this done ????

 

[Paultrim123321]

What do you think? How has he carried out Earth Bond tests? Leakage accumulation? Are they all the same class or some Class 1 & 2?

Why are you worried? It's not you is it who is carrying out the tests?

Did he come on horse back and carry a lasso?

 

[RyanCheetham]

I can see the reasoning behind it makes sense but does sound a bit like a cowboy move. I also do not do pat testing so cannot comment on the effectiveness of this method. I would do it one by one if purely for more accurate results

 

[Dizzy_Maskell]

Well he was wearing a Stetson and like I said we did question him but told us he was allowed to do it,
I was more concerned he said its like doing global tests meaning this guy obviously attempts fixed wiring tests

 

[Dizzy_Maskell]

Yeah sorry guys they where all the same item e.g. 15 kettles then 15 hair dryers etc

 

[Darkwood]

Many tests are required to ensure an item passes although global testing would indeed pass multiple items at once this is only on the insulation test, this cannot be done when measuring earth path resistance or flash testing, if he is just insulation testing and then passing them he isn't doing the full range of tests required, my test unit performs several tests per item (actual tests performed dependent on what is been tetsted)...

Because you have to perform multiple test per item there is no gain from global testing IMHO and this doesn't sound right at all, are you been issued with a official results cert that covers every item with the corresponding recorded values?

Ask him to provide a copy of his City and Guilds 2377 qualification for your insurance company and watch him sweat!

 

[Dizzy_Maskell]

Well we only contract there so not really our problem but we looked at his results page and its a word document that just says item number then all usual test options with the word pass copy and pasted all the way down the list, home made certs copy and pasted always concerning

 

[Dizzy_Maskell]

We did not know whether or not to make a comment to the maintenance manager

 

[RyanCheetham]

I think you should share your concerns with the client. Worst case is you are missing information and he is doing it correctly and you look a bit of a fool. But maybe he is being dangerous and putting lives at risk. Duty of care means you should advise of your concerns just in case

 

[Darkwood]

A behind closed doors comment would be nice ... explain your concerns then just ask to to ask for results sheets with test results and measured readings and his C&G 2377 for the insurance company.

To note! you don't have to have a CG2377 you just have to be competent to do so but from what you say it seems he's taking shortcuts and asking for it may be the best way to expose this.

 

[Dizzy_Maskell]

Thanks guys ill inform the client

 

[RWJ]

I was going to say cowboy......

but.....

When we do the theatres and hire companies they tend to have rack cases with radio mic receivers all powered by small 9v plug in psu's that are all then plugged in to a 4 / 6 way extension. We tend to just test the plug on the extension, as the psu cable's are all nicely tie wrapped and dressed. I think they buy whole unit like this as they all appear to be the same wherever we go.

 

[oldtimer]

Sorry its not a neat idea its just not legal in my view when I do a test on say a kettle I get the earth test then the IR and I log both he could only test one of the kettles so he has not done the test correctly and the same goes for Class II I think if you quiz him he will not be an electrician and as previously stated ask him for each of the kettles earth test result me thinks he has tested one and put this reading down for the rest.

Just to add this is the very thin that puts PAT in a bad light but such is the pressure to get 300 items done a day this type of thing turns up maybe I will ask the guy on the likeden forum

 

[Lucien Nunes]

Deleted

 

[Lucien Nunes]

rack cases with radio mic receivers all powered by small 9v plug in psu's that are all then plugged in to a 4 / 6 way extension

However normally all those little wall warts are Class 2 and a global test pass is sufficient as you're only doing IR and leakage. When doing Class 1 audio racks you need to split things up anyway so that only one piece of kit is having its earth tested at a time. I often build equipment racks with quite a number of larger switched-mode PSUs and the total leakage current is sometimes borderline. I have to split them up to prove that no one unit has excess leakage, but then also record the total for the rack as that is the figure that governs whether it's safe to plug in via a socket outlet. With separate appliances that are not parts of something, I'd be more impressed to see the tester doing separate tests. The more plugs and sockets you have between the tester and the item on test, the more likely the test is to be invalidated by a poor connection etc.

Lucien

 

[Tiny Spark]

Yeah agree this sounds very dodgy to me.
You could argue a global ir test is ok for class 2 appliances but there is absolutely no way you could justify this for class 1 stuff.
You have to be able to provide results for each individual item which he obviously can not as he will just get the worst possible scenario.
Just out of interest was he doing function or leakage tests?

 

[Dizzy_Maskell]

Think one kettle appliance turned on e.g hair dryer then the rest left off, he would have to sometimes he would do about 20 kettles I think the fuse may go if he tried do them all on load.
As I said he only puts pass or fail down on his sheets so it is non specific.
With regards to items he says he did 200 items a day but we never see him after 1PM so I think he must do 5 hours a day at max and still gets 200 items done must be some PAT but as I sat its not my forte so can't shoot him down but I have my suspicion

 

[Risteard]

Yeah agree this sounds very dodgy to me.
You could argue a global ir test is ok for class 2 appliances but there is absolutely no way you could justify this for class 1 stuff.
You have to be able to provide results for each individual item which he obviously can not as he will just get the worst possible scenario.
Just out of interest was he doing function or leakage tests?

Actually I think the justification could only be for Class I - as the cpc connection is there and therefore you will get the insulation resistances in parallel. For Class II it is no good as you would need to test between live conductors and exposed metalwork etc. which clearly would require you to probe each asset.

But as said, even with Class I, then it leaves the problem of needing to conduct an earth bond on each asset - so is there any real benefit? I suspect not.

Another problem is that you would have to verify that the fuses were all intact for the insulation resistance test to be meaningful.

 

[ackbarthestar]

We asked him out of curiosity if you can do this as we where not sure and he advised it is the equivalent of a global test when doing IR testing. He told us that if all 15 etc pass in one go then individually they must pass so of course it is ok.

New terms for the electrical glossary.

1/ Drive-by PIR
2/ Global PAT

I was interviewed for a testing job sometime ago.

"We don't do R1 + R2 on our new builds, Just Ze, Zs on the skts and a global IR"

Why don't people just slow down, do the job properly and take pride in their work

 

[Risteard]

New terms for the electrical glossary.

1/ Drive-by PIR
2/ Global PAT

I was interviewed for a testing job sometime ago.

"We don't do R1 + R2 on our new builds, Just Ze, Zs on the skts and a global IR"

Why don't people just slow down, do the job properly and take pride in their work

In fairness, the global insulation resistance part is the correct way to do that! Although obviously cpc continuity should be verified via dead testing before energising for initial verification!

 

[Tiny Spark]

Actually I think the justification could only be for Class I - as the cpc connection is there and therefore you will get the insulation resistances in parallel. For Class II it is no good as you would need to test between live conductors and exposed metalwork etc. which clearly would require you to probe each asset.

But as said, even with Class I, then it leaves the problem of needing to conduct an earth bond on each asset - so is there any real benefit? I suspect not.

Another problem is that you would have to verify that the fuses were all intact for the insulation resistance test to be meaningful.

Not sure if you are a little confused there.
Class 1 are appliances with earthed and exposed metal work.
Class 2 is double insulated.

Therefore with class 1 you have to do a earth bond test on each appliance.
With a basic class 2 then its on IR.

 

[Darkwood]

I doubt this guy has even got a PA-Tester hows he go about flash testing class II approx mine is 1.5-3kv dependent on whether the item has been repaired or not in its past.

Hows will he achieve a flash test me wonders i assume he hasn't got a proper PA-Tester as most now do all the checks in sequence and this would not see you global testing.

 

[Dizzy_Maskell]

completely gob smacked

Guys,

We did an EICR on an entire site a few weeks ago the site consists of numerous out buildings, sheds, maintenance shops etc. The site is entirely covered in Tarmac and all cables to these various buildings fed from a main sub are SWA cables using the armouring as the earth

The issue is that all out buildings etc the earth loop impedance is too high.

The earth loop in the Sub is fine but due to length of run etc the earth loop at all the boards is too high.

We have advised the site about this and explained they need to run separate earth to each out building with the cable.

They have come back to us today after their electrician has said he plans to run an earth ring around the perimeter of the site tapping in to each building as required instead of digging up the Tarmac to each building,

How he plans to do this we are yet to hear but I think I can hear a yeeeee haaaaaaa in the horizon

 

[Tiny Spark]

I doubt this guy has even got a PA-Tester hows he go about flash testing class II approx mine is 1.5-3kv dependent on whether the item has been repaired or not in its past.

Hows will he achieve a flash test me wonders i assume he hasn't got a proper PA-Tester as most now do all the checks in sequence and this would not see you global testing.

Ya know I have never flash tested a single appliance LOL
Most modern testers dont even have the capability I dont think, Our old robin can do it but never been needed.

 

[ipf]

If there's a steel fence round, he'll be able to cable tie to it.

 

[Dizzy_Maskell]

guys,

we did an eicr on an entire site a few weeks ago the site consists of numerous out buildings, sheds, maintenance shops etc. The site is entirely covered in tarmac and all cables to these various buildings fed from a main sub are swa cables using the armouring as the earth

the issue is that all out buildings etc the earth loop impedance is too high.

The earth loop in the sub is fine but due to length of run etc the earth loop at all the boards is too high.

We have advised the site about this and explained they need to run separate earth to each out building with the cable.

They have come back to us today after their electrician has said he plans to run an earth ring around the perimeter of the site tapping in to each building as required instead of digging up the tarmac to each building,

how he plans to do this we are yet to hear but i think i can hear a yeeeee haaaaaaa in the horizon

sorry meant to be new thread

 

[Darkwood]

Ya know I have never flash tested a single appliance LOL
Most modern testers dont even have the capability I dont think, Our old robin can do it but never been needed.

If an item is double insulated the integrity of the insulation has to be clarified and this can only be done with the flash test as basic insulation testers dont have a high enough voltage output or ability to sustain the voltage to do a full flash test... i take it you never tested a class II in your life then :smilielol5r you avoid the whole senerio altogether ... we used to have a manual PA-Tester but i got a Martindale micro-pat+ just press a few buttons and let it cycle only pressing advance when the set-up needs changing.

 

[Tiny Spark]

If an item is double insulated the integrity of the insulation has to be clarified and this can only be done with the flash test as basic insulation testers dont have a high enough voltage output or ability to sustain the voltage to do a full flash test... i take it you never tested a class II in your life then :smilielol5r you avoid the whole senerio altogether ... we used to have a manual PA-Tester but i got a Martindale micro-pat+ just press a few buttons and let it cycle only pressing advance when the set-up needs changing.

Tested more than my fair share sadly

However regarding flash testing when I did the course many moons ago we were told to only carry out flash testing if the appliance had been repaired or was suspected of having the insulation breaking down.
Reason being that flash testing can damage the appliance and that they are flash tested by the manufacturer.

So yeah ive never carried one out.
I have sold my tester now but it did not have the ability to do a flash test.

 

[Darkwood]

Was told similar but as i work in factories everything i touch has been repaired and hand grinders filling up with metal dust means i get alot of fails so for me and my circumstances its a regular crucial test..... had a guy get a shock off a double insulated drill 230v ... the circuit was rcd covered and tested working fine but it hadn't tripped so obviously leakage not high enough but was down to fine metal dust from the workshop settling on the com' brush holder and tracking to the metal case.... it failed the flash test but passed a normal insulation test to same point..... high pressure dried compress air line did the job ..... yep your correct about the flash test use but in a factory it would be used a bit on the bench tools.


Yes i know it should ideally be 110v gear but you test what they got and advise accordingly it up to them to listen or not but least i fitted rcd protection on all 230v outlets.

 

[Tiny Spark]

Was told similar but as i work in factories everything i touch has been repaired and hand grinders filling up with metal dust means i get alot of fails so for me and my circumstances its a regular crucial test..... had a guy get a shock off a double insulated drill 230v ... the circuit was rcd covered and tested working fine but it hadn't tripped so obviously leakage not high enough but was down to fine metal dust from the workshop settling on the com' brush holder and tracking to the metal case.... it failed the flash test but passed a normal insulation test to same point..... high pressure dried compress air line did the job ..... yep your correct about the flash test use but in a factory it would be used a bit on the bench tools.


Yes i know it should ideally be 110v gear but you test what they got and advise accordingly it up to them to listen or not but least i fitted rcd protection on all 230v outlets.

Ahh thats interesting.
Cant say I have ever come across that sort of situation.
Our factories pretty clean and most of the hand tools are battery powered but I shall keep that in mind for the future

 

[Darkwood]

Lots of welding and grinding etc and lack of extraction system in my factories means conductive dust and soap in the coolants burning off then it layers up inside the DC motors .... regular filter changes on control cabs and motors require steam cleaning throughout and baking dry at least every few years ... be nice to be just PA-Testing a kettle in kitchen if i had the choice but like everyone i hate doing it with a passion!

 

[ackbarthestar]

I doubt this guy has even got a PA-Tester hows he go about flash testing class II approx mine is 1.5-3kv dependent on whether the item has been repaired or not in its past.

Hows will he achieve a flash test me wonders i assume he hasn't got a proper PA-Tester as most now do all the checks in sequence and this would not see you global testing.

When I come across an item of equipment that I'm unfamiliar with I just pull my trousers down. If it doesn't move then its been Flash tested.

No need for 'Claire' .......

 

[davethsparky]

Class 2 kit can need a probe applied sometimes if it has exposed metalwork, not necessarily a flash test though.

On the fluke 6500 we use, and according to the manual for it the probe should be applied to teh exposed metal parts of class 2 kit whilst the insulation test is being carried out. Its the same for a substitute leakage test and a touch current test.

 

[Darkwood]

Class 2 kit can need a probe applied sometimes if it has exposed metalwork, not necessarily a flash test though.

On the fluke 6500 we use, and according to the manual for it the probe should be applied to teh exposed metal parts of class 2 kit whilst the insulation test is being carried out. Its the same for a substitute leakage test and a touch current test.

Yes you are correct but lets clear this up to exactly what i mean ... class I equipment is flash tested to 1.5Kv and class II is at 3kv by the manufacturer now like in my senerio a item is repaired or stripped and serviced then the item should be subject to the same original testing that was required by the manufacturers.

PA-Testers who are rarely in my set-up (heavy industry) can buy a PA-Tester that doesn't afford this option but if you are doing equipment that is serviced and repaired on site you need to maintain it has full integrity as expected from a manufactured new condition thus flash testing required. If you are testing repaired equipment then you should have a meter capable of a 1.5-3kv flash test!

Flash testing for me is essential as it indicates metal dust contaminants building up ...ideal for pre-empting a failure or worse a hazard.

Driving a mini around Silverstone will get you from A to B but if you need to drive the course as it was designed you are going to need to spend a little more money on a car that can achieve this!

 

[Risteard]

Not sure if you are a little confused there.
Class 1 are appliances with earthed and exposed metal work.
Class 2 is double insulated.

Therefore with class 1 you have to do a earth bond test on each appliance.
With a basic class 2 then its on IR.

No, not confused. A Class II appliance may not be insulation-enclosed and as such may have exposed metalwork and you need to verify that there is in fact no path between this and live parts. This can only be achieved by applying the probe.

A PAT tester tests between live conductors connected together and the cpc pin. With a Class II appliance - which has no cpc - then the insulation test will not actually test anything unless a probe is applied as there is no potential difference between the live conductors. Without the probe you are simply proving that the air between the asset and the tester is not conductive!

 

[davethsparky]

I have never yet had to test equipment in that area.

Most of the kit I have to test is reasonably specialised to another sector, the entertainment industry, so has its own little nuances to be considered. A lot of it gets tested with my MFT in the same manner as an installation test and a very thorough visual inspection.
I'd love to watch one of those PAT monkeys try and test one of these

 

[Darkwood]

I have never yet had to test equipment in that area.

Most of the kit I have to test is reasonably specialised to another sector, the entertainment industry, so has its own little nuances to be considered. A lot of it gets tested with my MFT in the same manner as an installation test and a very thorough visual inspection.
I'd love to watch one of those PAT monkeys try and test one of these

Well each segment of the industry to there own i could do with one of them linked and phase shorted to my meter to test the multitude of plug top styles lol

 

[davethsparky]

You certainly end up with a big selection of test adaptors made up for doing them. The other side of the box is normally a forest of MCB's RCD's and variable RCD's, you can easily get bored of RCD testing with one of them!

 

[UNG]

You have to wonder who comes up with idea for these new testing methods what next do a global PAT test at the consumer unit or DB given the size of some of these office blocks you could be testing ???? appliances in one hit makes these few hundred a day lads look like beginners

 

[Deleted member 9648]

No, not confused. A Class II appliance may not be insulation-enclosed and as such may have exposed metalwork and you need to verify that there is in fact no path between this and live parts. This can only be achieved by applying the probe.

A PAT tester tests between live conductors connected together and the cpc pin. With a Class II appliance - which has no cpc - then the insulation test will not actually test anything unless a probe is applied as there is no potential difference between the live conductors. Without the probe you are simply proving that the air between the asset and the tester is not conductive!

One thing this thread has highlighted is how many pat testers just plug a class 11 appliance into the tester...press IR test and assume it's actually tested something!
I had a row on here once with a guy who insisted all insulated moulded phone chargers could and should be IR tested,thats the standard of understanding of yer 'competant person'

 

[Tiny Spark]

No, not confused. A Class II appliance may not be insulation-enclosed and as such may have exposed metalwork and you need to verify that there is in fact no path between this and live parts. This can only be achieved by applying the probe.

A PAT tester tests between live conductors connected together and the cpc pin. With a Class II appliance - which has no cpc - then the insulation test will not actually test anything unless a probe is applied as there is no potential difference between the live conductors. Without the probe you are simply proving that the air between the asset and the tester is not conductive!

That being said I have come across metal cased class 2 equipment with a cpc!!
I have always said sometimes PAT testing certain appliances are not as simply cut as earthed or not earthed, metal or plastic.
Sometimes you have to go against the grain a little and as the old saying goes...

When in doubt treat it as class 1 lol

 

[Darkwood]

Just to hi-light here the Flash test 1.5kv for Class I and 3Kv for class II is what is required as a test by the manufacturer, most PA-Testers won't need to do it, if an item is been serviced though or having repaired done (i don't mean a new plug or flex) its should be subject to the appropriate flash test for its class.... the flash test on class II should be tested to all points exposed whether insulation or conductive, the flash test on class I needs to be to insulated parts only for obvious reasons.

If you are not in a similar industry to me then you may not ever use a flash test but having 3Kv handy at the end of a probe is sometimes fun for feeling like a mini-THOR!

http://www.testing-and-installation.co.uk/3a_guide_to_pat_testing.pdf
If the OP reads the link he can access whether the accused is falling short of his job.

 

[Tiny Spark]

but having 3Kv handy at the end of a probe is sometimes fun for feeling like a mini-THOR!

Nout to do with zapping the apprentice then?


God bless the megger!

 

[Darkwood]

Its a shame they no longer do MICC at college gone are the days off running it around the workshop having both ends in front of your mate and telling him to touch them ..... dumbass --- first lesson in capacitive charge !!!

 

[ackbarthestar]

Just to hi-light here the Flash test 1.5kv for Class I and 3Kv for class II is what is required as a test by the manufacturer, most PA-Testers won't need to do it, if an item is been serviced though or having repaired done (i don't mean a new plug or flex) its should be subject to the appropriate flash test for its class.... the flash test on class II should be tested to all points exposed whether insulation or conductive, the flash test on class I needs to be to insulated parts only for obvious reasons.

If you are not in a similar industry to me then you may not ever use a flash test but having 3Kv handy at the end of a probe is sometimes fun for feeling like a mini-THOR!

http://www.testing-and-installation.co.uk/3a_guide_to_pat_testing.pdf
If the OP reads the link he can access whether the accused is falling short of his job.

There used to be a metal foil plate surrounded on three sides in a rubber cover with a m4 socket stuck under the paitents bottom when being operated on. It made the return connection when using something akin to a mini mig welder for sealing up micro veins to stop bleeding so that the surgeon could continue without the need for endless swabs.
I'm not sure they still use this method any more.

However, i've thought for a while that it might be useful to get hold of one of these.

 

[Risteard]

That being said I have come across metal cased class 2 equipment with a cpc!!

I too have come across allegedly Class II equipment with a cpc. I highlight my concerns and advise the client to contact the manufacturer for details. I don't just pass it.

 

[Dizzy_Maskell]

New terms for the electrical glossary.

1/ Drive-by PIR
2/ Global PAT

I was interviewed for a testing job sometime ago.

"We don't do R1 + R2 on our new builds, Just Ze, Zs on the skts and a global IR"

Why don't people just slow down, do the job properly and take pride in their work

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


there Is an abundance of people who do this and I think it could be because of costs,

It's no excuse and people like this ruin the industry as they under price good honest workers and then do a rubbish job and get away with limitations and all other kinds of excuses.

Rant over

 

[LeeH]

We pay under 1.50 per appliance with Hawksworth. I told the big wigs upstairs to keep it in house as there is no way you can inspect the tool, cord, fuse size etc. And test, and document correctly for that price.

But! It was cheap so it was outsourced anyway. Another example of costs first, safety second.

My rant over.

 

[Badged01]

We pay under 1.50 per appliance .....

Thats expensive! Companies out there doing it far, far cheaper ......

 

[LeeH]

Well that's just insane. They must be just filling in the stickers.