Level of qualification needed to obtain licence?

[Engineer54]

On the flip side of the coin then, do you know exactly what qualifications you need to get the "Gas Safe" license? Just thought it would be a good idea so we can compare to an already licensed trade.

No i don't know, and frankly i don't care either!! I have no interest whatsoever in what or how Gas Safe do or don't do things....

Do they have incompetent 17 day whizz kids and electrical trainee's flooding the gas industry too??

 

[UNG]

Don't see any option but to have a transition period to allow those under the bar to achieve the level set by any new licensing system although even this will result in some losing interest and leaving the industry. The transport industry introduced the driver CPC in 2009 with a 5 year transition period and this timescale appears to be the norm when changes are made in most industries.

 

[uksparks]

My point was, we want it licensed and only have that to compare to as a trade as such.

Surely if you can become gas safe in a matter of weeks, whats the difference, I appreciate theres cowboys out there doing both, but im just saying you can get a license on a Electrical Trainee gas course probably.

 

[MDJ]

Not sure, But don't Gas engineers on the Gas safe register have to take a test (exam) every year to keep the ticket?

 

[overskilled]

No mention of a core electrical qualification or any qualification for that matter so no better than what we have now

So a new spark gets away doing an NVQ / AM2 and an experienced spark has to do a "5 day in depth practical assessment"

Some disparity there then you obviously don't like level playing fields and if this is just to gain the right to apply for a licence I do wonder what you would expect at a 5 yearly assessment



A recipe for total chaos I can imagine a customer being really happy because their job is stopped for a few days while you have to go and do your reassessment at a moments notice and as it would expire after another 5 years some people could feel short changed getting hit for a reassessment within the 5 year period



Are you reinventing trading standards or creating another expensive quango !!!!!!



The regs are written in law speak as this is the reference book for the legal bods when we get it wrong


Reading through your initial assessment suggestions all I can see is £££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££ a 5 day assessment could easily end up costing between £2K - £2.5K when all the costs and lost earnings are taken into account and what will it prove getting experienced sparks to jump through hoops so they can carry on working in the industry while letting in new entrants with an NVQ / AM2 a qualification which isn't worth a right hand job IMO

Notice I said "Existing sparks - As above (i.e. the NVQ/AM2) OR a portfolio of work showing the required competencies OR an indepth practical assessment over say 5 days." Not in addition to....

 

[overskilled]

Not sure, But don't Gas engineers on the Gas safe register have to take a test (exam) every year to keep the ticket?

I do know if your late in renewing they add several hundred quid in penalty charges, even if its a few days....

 

[Rockingit]

Not sure, But don't Gas engineers on the Gas safe register have to take a test (exam) every year to keep the ticket?

All I can tell you is that is seems to be a far more robust system than we currently have! I looked last year at what would be required to get Gas Safe'd up for doing the LPG side of catering trailers - a one stop shop kind of idea alongside EICR / PAT - and decided it was just too much like hard work! Once you've done the various modular courses to get the exams, you then have to get EVERYTHING you do shadowed by another long-term GS engineer and sort of double signed-off for the first year. There's a lot of duplication in the system, but I'll confess that it did make me look at GS guys in a slightly friendlier light, they do seem to have to go through the mill a bit in order to get that card.

 

[Guest55]

its good to see a relevent topic thoroughly debated , they're fairly scarce around here lately.


and only 3 pages short of the forum record 22 page epic 6mm / 9.5kw shower thread....:-D

good work men !
;-)

 

[UNG]

Notice I said "Existing sparks - As above (i.e. the NVQ/AM2) OR a portfolio of work showing the required competencies OR an indepth practical assessment over say 5 days." Not in addition to....

I know what you said but there does not appear to be any equivalent level across the 3 options

What is wrong with one base standard for the whole industry I.E. a 2360. 2330 or an equivalent then everyone knows where they stand in one simple criteria

 

[MDJ]

I live honestly and in reality and always have done, unfortunately some people like to think they can shop down the "One Upmanship Isle" in the supermarket.

He best not bring his sausage over here!

What about a kebab would you get into the bath tub with him if he gave you some fatty meat?

 

[sparkdog]

I still think a diploma in spelling should be a requirement.

 

[UNG]

There are some on here that seem to think amnesia is a pre requisite of having 30 or 40 or more years experience this may be so as we have probably forgotten more than some have learned in recent times.

The courses and range of jobs I worked on as an apprentice covered all sectors and a range of installation, maintenance, fault finding and breakdown repairs. I admit on some things that I haven't done for a while it would take a little time to get back up to speed but it is not totally forgotten and some techniques learnt in one sector do crossover all the industry sectors so I don't consider the transition between sectors to be much of a problem

Why do we need to break up one industry up into 3 sectors when I came into the trade it was to become an electrician to work on electrical installations whatever type they were back then some things that are now considered specialist were just part of the job.

Why are some so hell bent on dividing everything up and pigeon holing electricians into single sectors or do some just enjoy the bickering it causes on this and all the other trade forums

 

[Zebra Stripe]

With the greatest of respect and in my opinion, you have to be living in some fantasy world if you think that suddenly thousands of people must have their right to trade restricted, or prohibited, and ultimately affect their ability to earn a living, pay bills & taxes over night, for no other reason than they failed to do an apprenticeship or gain a completely useless NVQ made up of photos of them standing next to a piece of conduit or holding a broom with a dust mask on. No chance, it isn’t going to happen, not right now and not in the future. There is no profit in that for the parasites, unless it was a tiered system with ultimately very expensive membership and more new add on “dumbed down” qualifications.

So one day you are deemed competent through Government backed schemes and the next day incompetent, unless you pay thousands of pounds for a new course and exam with multiple answer questions, no doubt focusing on how to read a book or use an index?

A “license to trade” is a long way off in this divided, over complicated, tangled up in red tape, parasite infested trade. A trade, which is at present and always has been, and always will be, policed with an insipid and ridiculously toothless non-entity, even if the work is dangerously unsafe.

Is it not the standard of education that should be targeted? The multi answer C&G land questions, which bear little resemblance to real situations? The Not very qualified 3, focusing on your ability to photograph yourself, whilst conducting an insulation resistance test? Or the wonderful test board with its real “life sized” circuits to test.

In my opinion, its the “dumbing down” of the qualifications that’s the problem. The forever changing numbers of C&G quals don’t help either. If you change the system to licensing, it just moves the goal posts, but the bad training and dumb down exams just change their names (& prices) and the incompetent scheme members become incompetent license holders, and the whole thing goes round and round making loads of money and the parasites thrive.

But, hey its not going to happen because we live in a dumb down society, where xfactor is more important than landing on mars, ****enders is more interesting than the Bush families relationship with the Bin Laden’s and reading has been replaced with the “must have it now” generation of “why read when you can watch the movie” people.

So why does it matter if it takes 3 years, 5 weeks or you just take the exam, if the qualification/exam was the same, requiring in-depth answers in each case? Change the education part and the rest will follow. There is no need for a License, just some good old fashioned real education, bring back C&G 2360 and C&G 2391, and C&G 2400 , with add on’s if required. Experience, well that’s a different kettle of worms.

 

[DPG]

But, hey its not going to happen because we live in a dumb down society, where xfactor is more important than landing on mars, ****enders is more interesting than the Bush families relationship with the Bin Laden’s and reading has been replaced with the “must have it now” generation of “why read when you can watch the movie” people.

That paragraph sums up today's society very well. The only thing missing is the endless 'one-upmanship' that people exhibit. Daz

 

[D Skelton]

With the greatest of respect and in my opinion, you have to be living in some fantasy world if you think that suddenly thousands of people must have their right to trade restricted, or prohibited, and ultimately affect their ability to earn a living, pay bills & taxes over night, for no other reason than they failed to do an apprenticeship or gain a completely useless NVQ made up of photos of them standing next to a piece of conduit or holding a broom with a dust mask on. No chance, it isn’t going to happen, not right now and not in the future. There is no profit in that for the parasites, unless it was a tiered system with ultimately very expensive membership and more new add on “dumbed down” qualifications.

So one day you are deemed competent through Government backed schemes and the next day incompetent, unless you pay thousands of pounds for a new course and exam with multiple answer questions, no doubt focusing on how to read a book or use an index?

A “license to trade” is a long way off in this divided, over complicated, tangled up in red tape, parasite infested trade. A trade, which is at present and always has been, and always will be, policed with an insipid and ridiculously toothless non-entity, even if the work is dangerously unsafe.

Is it not the standard of education that should be targeted? The multi answer C&G land questions, which bear little resemblance to real situations? The Not very qualified 3, focusing on your ability to photograph yourself, whilst conducting an insulation resistance test? Or the wonderful test board with its real “life sized” circuits to test.

In my opinion, its the “dumbing down” of the qualifications that’s the problem. The forever changing numbers of C&G quals don’t help either. If you change the system to licensing, it just moves the goal posts, but the bad training and dumb down exams just change their names (& prices) and the incompetent scheme members become incompetent license holders, and the whole thing goes round and round making loads of money and the parasites thrive.

But, hey its not going to happen because we live in a dumb down society, where xfactor is more important than landing on mars, ****enders is more interesting than the Bush families relationship with the Bin Laden’s and reading has been replaced with the “must have it now” generation of “why read when you can watch the movie” people.

So why does it matter if it takes 3 years, 5 weeks or you just take the exam, if the qualification/exam was the same, requiring in-depth answers in each case? Change the education part and the rest will follow. There is no need for a License, just some good old fashioned real education, bring back C&G 2360 and C&G 2391, and C&G 2400 , with add on’s if required. Experience, well that’s a different kettle of worms.

Let's do it your way then and shut up whilst just having to accept and put up with societies wrongs. It is attitudes like yours that have allowed the industry to become so ridiculously underskilled in the first place, no one putting their foot down and defending what is right whilst tacitly approving the corruption of the scams thinking "nothing will change, let someone else worry about it".

There is nothing wrong with current qualifications with respect to what they actually teach you. The 2360 was no better than the 2330. It is the standard of teaching that has got worse, but that is another argument.

Back in the day there were companies that made a fortune from selling handguns to the British public then overnight they were made illegal and these companies went out of business. What a mistake hey! We should have just kept handguns legal, dispite the problems associated with them, just so that people could continue to make a living! What a ridiculous argument!

Five weeks at a training center never has and never will make someone a competent electrician, so changing the rules makes no odds. If someone is not competent then they should not be carrying out electrical work full stop. If they lose business then tough! These individuals should be provided with a fair chance to gain a core qualification in order to comply with licensing requirements. Maybe 3 years leeway to get themselves up to speed. If they can't do it then they should find other work.

I agree that the NVQ3 isn't the be all and end all, but at least it goes some way towards PROVING a level of experience. What must count surely is the core qualification.

Once a base level has been achieved across the board then an initial thorough assessment followed by unbiased and strict 3, 4, 5 yearly assessments should be able to weed out those who can't or don't want to keep up.

Anyway, who am I to suggest or work towards a better model for the electrical industry? Put up and shut up right?

 

[UNG]

With the greatest of respect and in my opinion, you have to be living in some fantasy world if you think that suddenly thousands of people must have their right to trade restricted, or prohibited, and ultimately affect their ability to earn a living, pay bills & taxes over night, for no other reason than they failed to do an apprenticeship or gain a completely useless NVQ made up of photos of them standing next to a piece of conduit or holding a broom with a dust mask on. No chance, it isn’t going to happen, not right now and not in the future. There is no profit in that for the parasites, unless it was a tiered system with ultimately very expensive membership and more new add on “dumbed down” qualifications.

So one day you are deemed competent through Government backed schemes and the next day incompetent, unless you pay thousands of pounds for a new course and exam with multiple answer questions, no doubt focusing on how to read a book or use an index?

Back in 2008 / 2009 PCV and HGV drivers were told they had to pass a driver CPC by September 2013 / 2014 to get a Driver Qualification Card (DQC) or they would not be able to continue driving until they got their Driver Qualification Card (DQC) this wasn't in some fantasy world this was right here in UKPLC and the rest of Europe so no DQC no job, so why could this not happen in the electrical industry if you don't have the necessary qualifications to get a licence you have x number of years to achieve the required level for a licence

 

[Zebra Stripe]

I think you miss-understand what I was trying to say. It is comendable for anyone to standup for what they believe is right and I applaud you for doing so.

I agree that the schemes are no more interested in the electrical industry other than to take control of the market share of membership and thus make lots of money. However, If you believe that another scheme "licensing" will be any different at present then I disagree. I believe that exams based on muli choice answers are not as credible as a writen paper and as such think that a lot of the ills could be solved via better quality education.
But to say all those who dissagree with a license are the problem and somehow to blame for poorly educated trained electricians is a bit knee jerk....by the way did I say do nothing?

 

[D Skelton]

I think you miss-understand what I was trying to say. It is comendable for anyone to standup for what they believe is right and I applaud you for doing so.

I agree that the schemes are no more interested in the electrical industry other than to take control of the market share of membership and thus make lots of money. However, If you believe that another scheme "licensing" will be any different at present then I disagree. I believe that exams based on muli choice answers are not as credible as a writen paper and as such think that a lot of the ills could be solved via better quality education.
But to say all those who dissagree with a license are the problem and somehow to blame for poorly educated trained electricians is a bit knee jerk....by the way did I say do nothing?

I'm not saying licencing is the only way, but it is a far better solution that what we have now. In esscence, it is about making sure that every electrician throughout the country who turns up on someones doorstep or turns up on a building site is FULLY qualified. It works well for gas, it is cheaper for the contractor, a stricter assessment not based on money, safer for the end consumer and the enforcement side of it actually has some teeth, so why would it not work for electricity?

 

[Zebra Stripe]

Back in 2008 / 2009 PCV and HGV drivers were told they had to pass a driver CPC by September 2013 / 2014 to get a Driver Qualification Card (DQC) or they would not be able to continue driving until they got their Driver Qualification Card (DQC) this wasn't in some fantasy world this was right here in UKPLC and the rest of Europe so no DQC no job, so why could this not happen in the electrical industry if you don't have the necessary qualifications to get a licence you have x number of years to achieve the required level for a licence

Ok if thats what you want to happen, then what if the required qualification is a so called new one at the cost of £3000, do you not think that the forum would be filled with people saying how this is a travesty and how they can stick the new qualification?

Im not and i'll say it again, NOT, sticking up for short course entry into competent person registers. Im saying be careful what your asking for, because it may impact financially on the qualified 2360 2391 2382 or what ever qualification you have electrician,

 

[sparkdog]

At risk of being banished to a deserted island like Napoleon,I will say that I think my current scheme provider's yearly assessment is very thorough and to a high technical standard.The assessor,who I have had for 5 years is a proper spark and misses absolutely nothing.And I have been in the trade over 40 years.