Minimum Qualifications Required

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I'm only starting this thread because 2 last night got locked by Marvo before I could respond again.

So in response to:

http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...orum/82885-minimum-qualifications-needed.html

More harm was done by the replies to the original thread because of the en-masse stupidly thought out answers by most of the responders, which to be frank simply makes us look daft.

The OP's question was quite simple (maybe not thought out correctly) and the obvious answer was the membership of Part P via a scheme - whether we like that or not its here to stay..... I interact with sparks of all grades and from what I see there is NO correlation between a Electrical Trainee cutting corners and the bad installs I see. In fact there are a number of "time served" sparks around me who do downright dodgy, non certificated, CIH jobs.

So next time there's a thread like last nights lets keep the reponses on track and constructive...... rants about the schemes and Electrical Trainee's don't help and actually, IMHO do more harm, and make us look foolish.

Tin hat on.

Edit: I now see far more dodgy kitchen installs since the scope of Part P got relaxed...
 
Have to agree with Murdoch, rules is rules whether we agree with them or not. Until the 'governing' bodies of the electrical industry alter them rules "Part P registration" will allow the Electrical Trainee to work in domestic premises after they have been assessed as "competent" by the likes of the NICEIC -- get used to it guys, its a fact of the electrical industry and no ranting on this forum is going to change that. (For clarity my personal opinion is that I disagree with much of the "Part P" process for assessing electrical profficiency/competancy).

What I believe we can do is to assist and guide them as best as we can to try and add our combined experience/knowledge into making things safer for Joe public when a "Part P tradesman" asks for assistance on work he is doing. And I will further agree with Murdoch that I have seen some damn right potentially lethal electrical work that has been completed by "time served" sparks! Unfortuntely we dont seem to be doing much as an electrical industry to weed them!!

p.s. I am not Murdoch, in any way connected to Murdoch, receiving any commission from Murdoch for 'bigging' up his post or have any desire to have Murdochs babies .....
 
Quite. Some people were clearly making assumptions about the reason for the original question, and the person asking would have done better to say why he was asking. However, he deserved a straight answer.

In some ways, it's quite understandable that the question has arisen, given how unclear the 'rules' are to everyone except electricians (and not all of them). The current situation, with the recently relaxed part P rules, is a shambles. eg, if you're putting new downlights in a typical bathroom ceiling (above zone 2) on an existing circuit you don't need to be registered and you don't need to notify the job.
 
I agree with badged01, I have completed a domestic installers course but do not consider myself an electrician at all. These training centres should be advising ppl like me to get in with an electrical company an gain experience and knowledge as there's some problems that will pop up that these courses do not cover, also it would be a great idea to have advice from professionals like yourselves rather than ppl looking on us as an outcast! I intend on getting in with a company as a mate so I can then further my quals but I was worried about coming on this forum an admitting that I had done this domestic installers course as so many seem to just jump on your back instead of giving constructive advice!!
 
I'm sorry to have to say this but it would be a lot more sensible to discuss this on a closed forum. IMHO the OP of the original post had an underlying reason for asking the question but to openly post a generic answer to the partial question, again IMHO would have been complete madness. As for Electrical Trainee's, I have no problem with people on courses and have given a number experience and advice. The courses do put people miles ahead of the general public who are legally able to buy whatever they want. Yes, the scams want us to prove competence but do LABC? In fact do the sheds actually remind anyone purchasing sayyyyy a metal clad CU with only a main switch what regs affect the kit that they are buying? I'll let you guys fill in all the blanks here but the OP was correct in saying that things need to be changed.
 
The reason I started this in the open forum was to draw to the attention of as many people as possible, how stupid "we" can look with some of our posts.
 
So it is good and just for a time served man to give advice to somebody who missed the boat at 16yrs and comes along later, after doing some short course, to steal his job? Somebody who got a bit of redundancy money somewhere and woke up one morning and thought " tonight Mathew.........Im going to be an electrician".
That is/would be...........plain stupid.

Boydy
 
Murdoch said:
I'm only starting this thread because 2 last night got locked by Marvo before I could respond again.

So in response to:

http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...orum/82885-minimum-qualifications-needed.html

More harm was done by the replies to the original thread because of the en-masse stupidly thought out answers by most of the responders, which to be frank simply makes us look daft.

The OP's question was quite simple (maybe not thought out correctly) and the obvious answer was the membership of Part P via a scheme - whether we like that or not its here to stay..... I interact with sparks of all grades and from what I see there is NO correlation between a Electrical Trainee cutting corners and the bad installs I see. In fact there are a number of "time served" sparks around me who do downright dodgy, non certificated, CIH jobs.

So next time there's a thread like last nights lets keep the reponses on track and constructive...... rants about the schemes and Electrical Trainee's don't help and actually, IMHO do more harm, and make us look foolish.

Tin hat on.

Edit: I now see far more dodgy kitchen installs since the scope of Part P got relaxed...
Click to expand...
i`m bloody sick of em coming in...

DIY section over there>....
 
Defend it all you like you cannot become an electrician by completing a 5 week course. The problem is someone with no practical experience then setting up their own business as a self employed electrician and being paid by a poor unsuspecting householder who thinks he must be competent as he is a member of a scheme.
Yes you can be time served and do a crap job but there is more chance of a bodge job by someone who who has little experience.
I cannot believe any electrician who has served an apprenticeship and gained site experience in a variety of roles would ever defend this route into this industry. The Industry we are all trying to make a living in and is being devalued by the week.
 
We all have different views.

Some are happy to help in the diy section and some dont go near it.

Some are happy to help the (obviously) Electrical Trainee brigade and some like me view them with contempt and respond accordingly as is my right as this is after all the ELECTRICIANS FORUM. If they come on the general forum asking stupid/basic questions they will get pelted by me and many others.

It is cringing to watch members responding to daft questions which would be better in the diy section. At least then a Electrical Trainee etc would not be trying to appear to be the real deal.

Helping in private message format is just concealment/censorship.

Sorry if the above is considered a DAFT response (not).

Boydy
 
Boydy said:
We all have different views.

Some are happy to help in the diy section and some dont go near it.
some like me view them with contempt and respond accordingly as is my right as this is after all the ELECTRICIANS FORUM. If they come on the general forum asking stupid/basic questions they will get pelted by me and many others.



Boydy
Click to expand...

So you believe it's your right to treat people with contempt. Unbelievable !!!!
 
as i have said in here before umpteen times....
a lot of these `part Pers`..who just drifted in on the tide are nothing but a bunch of complete spackers....
the stuff we see that they have done/passed whatever...
christ...

we all moan about how the industry is flooded with turnips at the moment but yet folk persist in handing out free advice to complete & total timewasters....
 
a casual browser of this forum would probably think that domestic work is the be all and end all of the whole electrical industry after looking through this and the many other similar threads.

the fact that all the schemes accept members to become part p domestic installers with nothing more than a 17th ed cert and a set of testers just goes to show how they've sold you all up the river and you are now left to sqabble between yourselves.

i certainly wouldnt pay £500 a year to be a member of an organisation that had a significant role in de-skilling the whole industry , but thats my choice.

so the upshot of all this is that we're all out for ourselves quite simply and nothing will change for the forseeable future.
 
Boydy said:
We all have different views.

Some are happy to help in the diy section and some dont go near it.

Some are happy to help the (obviously) Electrical Trainee brigade and some like me view them with contempt and respond accordingly as is my right as this is after all the ELECTRICIANS FORUM. If they come on the general forum asking stupid/basic questions they will get pelted by me and many others.

It is cringing to watch members responding to daft questions which would be better in the diy section. At least then a Electrical Trainee etc would not be trying to appear to be the real deal.

Helping in private message format is just concealment/censorship.

Sorry if the above is considered a DAFT response (not).

Boydy
Click to expand...

Wrong attitude to be honest, just ignore them, or tell them politely. What teaching qualifications do you have then as most of you on here think you have some god given right and experts in you fields?
 
Regs said:
Wrong attitude to be honest, just ignore them, or tell them politely. What teaching qualifications do you have then as most of you on here think you have some god given right and experts in you fields?
Click to expand...
That will be the old fashioned method of passing your pearls of wisdom to the lumpen proletariate beneath you.
sometime called experience.
i have loads.
ill keep it to myself if that's alright
 
experience is not a thing that can be passed on. crabs, genital warts, AIDS, these can all be passed on. experience has to be learnt.
 
Thats where I must have gone wrong Tel, didnt get the experience but got the rest working in the Far East ...... less the AIDS, hadnt heard of it in the early 80's!
 
Regs said:
Wrong attitude to be honest, just ignore them, or tell them politely. What teaching qualifications do you have then as most of you on here think you have some god given right and experts in you fields?
Click to expand...

Said by a poster who's been less than honest with the forum.
 
I've only just read this thread, I'm sick of the stupid questions that are asked by so called skilled people it's embarrassing IMO so I say some of them need the P1zz talking out of them because they sure as hell will get it taken out of them on site lol
 
Murdoch said:
Said by a poster who's been less than honest with the forum.
Click to expand...

But that is the hole problem its not really a forum is it. A forum is a place i thought where different people come and talk, exchange experience
This is a dictatorship run by mostly a bunch of clicky wining women who think they have some right to teach and judge others and get off on it!. Whether you like it or not thats the truth.

Whilst some are genuine and want to help others.
 
Regs said:
But that is the hole problem its not really a forum is it. A forum is a place i thought where different people come and talk, exchange experience
This is a dictatorship run by mostly a bunch of clicky wining women who think they have some right to teach and judge others and get off on it!. Whether you like it or not thats the truth.

Whilst some are genuine and want to help others.
Click to expand...

As I stated, YOU have been less than honest with the forum, haven't you.

If you look at my posts they are generally very helpful.

If you don't like it you can go else where......
 
OOH Dear handbags!

I am not going to get tangled in the pro's and con's of all of this, but i will voice my opinions in the good name of the forum.

It is the Electricians Forum, but it is also a public forum, and as such it is not restricted to Electricians. So irrespective of what yours/my opinions are about people who post in may be, we must all act properly.

People have a right to post their views/opinions etc rightly or wrongly in a public forum, we have a right to respond or ignore the posts as we see fit. What we don't have is the right to offend or belittle people because they are not Electricians and are posting in the Electricians forum asking for advice etc etc for whatever reason, this is what gets us a bad name.

This forum is run by a handful of people who put a hell of a lot of time and effort into it for no reward, it only takes a few snide remarks to undo all their hard work, so remember this the next time you choose to "have a go".

I think the DIY forum is an excellent idea, i am more than happy to post and advise in there, and this is why. Over the years i have been on no end of forums looking for advice about no end of different things, and for the most part the advice given has been excellent, even when that advice was not was i was wanting to hear like "I suggest you contact a diesel specialist".

Why do Electricians see themselves as being above everyone else just because we did an Apprenticeship? We are not the only apprentice trained trade out there, and we are not the only trade who has people in it without formal qualifications.

This post is not aimed at any one particular person, nor is intended to offend, but some people need to grow up and show some maturity. The best trades people will always prevail, irrespective of their background.

Cheers...............Howard
 
SirKit Breaker said:
OOH Dear handbags!

I am not going to get tangled in the pro's and con's of all of this, but i will voice my opinions in the good name of the forum.

It is the Electricians Forum, but it is also a public forum, and as such it is not restricted to Electricians. So irrespective of what yours/my opinions are about people who post in may be, we must all act properly.

People have a right to post their views/opinions etc rightly or wrongly in a public forum, we have a right to respond or ignore the posts as we see fit. What we don't have is the right to offend or belittle people because they are not Electricians and are posting in the Electricians forum asking for advice etc etc for whatever reason, this is what gets us a bad name.

This forum is run by a handful of people who put a hell of a lot of time and effort into it for no reward, it only takes a few snide remarks to undo all their hard work, so remember this the next time you choose to "have a go".

I think the DIY forum is an excellent idea, i am more than happy to post and advise in there, and this is why. Over the years i have been on no end of forums looking for advice about no end of different things, and for the most part the advice given has been excellent, even when that advice was not was i was wanting to hear like "I suggest you contact a diesel specialist".

Why do Electricians see themselves as being above everyone else just because we did an Apprenticeship? We are not the only apprentice trained trade out there, and we are not the only trade who has people in it without formal qualifications.

This post is not aimed at any one particular person, nor is intended to offend, but some people need to grow up and show some maturity. The best trades people will always prevail, irrespective of their background.

Cheers...............Howard
Click to expand...


Very long post very short reply Spot on !!!!
 
Some claim to be electricians, it doesn’t take long to weed them out.

I’m all for passing on knowledge but only if it’s going to be used safely. Too many come here wanting information they aren’t capable of acting on.
 
mechelec said:
Defend it all you like you cannot become an electrician by completing a 5 week course. The problem is someone with no practical experience then setting up their own business as a self employed electrician and being paid by a poor unsuspecting householder who thinks he must be competent as he is a member of a scheme.
Yes you can be time served and do a crap job but there is more chance of a bodge job by someone who who has little experience.
I cannot believe any electrician who has served an apprenticeship and gained site experience in a variety of roles would ever defend this route into this industry. The Industry we are all trying to make a living in and is being devalued by the week.
Click to expand...


Not "is", but was, just under a decade ago. Its happened along time ago.
 
So nothing is now notifiable apart from CU change, work in special location, swimming pool & saunas. Lastly new circuits but even with this there is a loop hole as if you want one new circuit you only need to accidentally damage the circuit and then replacing the new circuit becomes non notifiable!
 
Regs said:
So nothing is now notifiable apart from CU change, work in special location, swimming pool & saunas. Lastly new circuits but even with this there is a loop hole as if you want one new circuit you only need to accidentally damage the circuit and then replacing the new circuit becomes non notifiable!
Click to expand...

I realise i said i wouldn't reply directly too you again. However, just one little question i would like to know...

Why do you try and find a possible loop hole in absolutley everything?

And this isn't anything really to do with this question, just in general with the amount of problems you try and uncover....You do realise BS7671/GN3/OSG ect.. are all non-stat? Yes they have to be worked too, but certain situations call for different actions...like the whole 3amp fuse/manfucatures instructions debate.

Nothing is 100% concrete unless it's statutory.
 
Regs said:
So nothing is now notifiable apart from CU change, work in special location, swimming pool & saunas. Lastly new circuits but even with this there is a loop hole as if you want one new circuit you only need to accidentally damage the circuit and then replacing the new circuit becomes non notifiable!
Click to expand...
This must be the way non qualified 'sparks' get over the .Part P law
 
Regs said:
So nothing is now notifiable apart from CU change, work in special location, swimming pool & saunas. Lastly new circuits but even with this there is a loop hole as if you want one new circuit you only need to accidentally damage the circuit and then replacing the new circuit becomes non notifiable!
Click to expand...

So the troll shows his true colours

Oh and by the way you are not correct.
 
markc123 said:
I realise i said i wouldn't reply directly too you again. However, just one little question i would like to know...

Why do you try and find a possible loop hole in absolutley everything?

And this isn't anything really to do with this question, just in general with the amount of problems you try and uncover....You do realise BS7671/GN3/OSG ect.. are all non-stat? Yes they have to be worked too, but certain situations call for different actions...like the whole 3amp fuse/manfucatures instructions debate.

Nothing is 100% concrete unless it's statutory.
Click to expand...

Im simply just pointing out that the regs, rules seem to be a bit of a joke at times. I like definate answers not interpretations
 
Murdoch said:
So the troll shows his true colours

Oh and by the way you are not correct.
Click to expand...

At what point did i say i would do the above??
Firstly i dont touch part p work
Secondly i would not be joining NICEIC in next few weeks, if you want to see my invoice for 390+78 vat = 468 i wii post it just to shut yoou the hell up site foreman
 
Regs said:
Im simply just pointing out that the regs, rules seem to be a bit of a joke at times. I like definate answers not interpretations
Click to expand...

That's the point though, everyone interprets the regs differently. Theres no 'set' answers. It's down to professional judgement half the time - you make your bed and you lie in it so to speak.

Like i say the regs are non-stat.
 
Regs said:
Im simply just pointing out that the regs, rules seem to be a bit of a joke at times. I like definate answers not interpretations
Click to expand...


So you must think it was written by a bunch of comedians mmm

They are written by a committee of what is supposed to be the best that UK plc can conjure up
You ask many questions on this forum so please answer one for yourself
When or how do you believe you obtained sufficient knowledge to contradict them?
 
telectrix said:
experience is not a thing that can be passed on. crabs, genital warts, AIDS, these can all be passed on. experience has to be learnt.
Click to expand...

Sorry Tel, you're wrong there... AIDS cant be passed on, the HIV virus which may turn into AIDS can though. Its actually now classed as a chronic disease (like diabetes) rather than terminal due to the huge breakthrough in treatments... also......

oops.. Got a bit carried away there, only because the other conversation has been talked about quite a bit, its all very interesting though :teeth_smile:
 
Well, the idea of the thread was good Murdoch and I fully agree with the sentiment. Pity it’s gone belly up.

SS Electrical is heading the same way as the Titanic. The iceberg being in the shape of the scams that admit anyone regardless of relevant qualifications.

What you do about them I don’t know. The chances of any good coming of the parliamentary committee are slim.
I’ve personally never had anything to do with or ever needed any scam. They are of no use in the industries I’ve worked in. It’s down to you professional domestic electricians to oust the impostors.

I know it’s harsh but you need another MP’s daughter fried by an incompetent installation.
 
Tony said:
Well, the idea of the thread was good Murdoch and I fully agree with the sentiment. Pity it’s gone belly up.

SS Electrical is heading the same way as the Titanic. The iceberg being in the shape of the scams that admit anyone regardless of relevant qualifications.

What you do about them I don’t know. The chances of any good coming of the parliamentary committee are slim.
I’ve personally never had anything to do with or ever needed any scam. They are of no use in the industries I’ve worked in. It’s down to you professional domestic electricians to oust the impostors.

I know it’s harsh but you need another MP’s daughter fried by an incompetent installation.
Click to expand...
and on that note another good quote would be:

`well, a large oil tanker takes a long time to turn`..
or:
`the ships just too damn big with too small a rudder`

take your pick...
 
Des 56 said:
So you must think it was written by a bunch of comedians mmm

They are written by a committee of what is supposed to be the best that UK plc can conjure up
You ask many questions on this forum so please answer one for yourself
When or how do you believe you obtained sufficient knowledge to contradict them?
Click to expand...

Dont get me started.
I never said comedians did i, but dont get why its not written in more of a leymens terms.
BS7671 is mostly written in code language that most electricians would not have the intellect to understand or we would not be electricians in the first place would we, no offence. You need to much time to find the correct page even then everything is vague. Thats why so many of us turn to these sites. In my opinion it should not be made out of so many interpretation but more stone facts to follow. Interpretation only add to the confusion i think. Why do they bring out a new books every few years, just $$'s
 
Regs said:
Dont get me started.
I never said comedians did i, but dont get why its not written in more of a leymens terms.
BS7671 is mostly written in code language that most electricians would not have the intellect to understand or we would not be electricians in the first place would we, no offence. You need to much time to find the correct page even then everything is vague. Thats why so many of us turn to these sites. In my opinion it should not be made out of so many interpretation but more stone facts to follow. Interpretation only add to the confusion i think. Why do they bring out a new books every few years, just $$'s
Click to expand...
There is the onsite guide!.. haha. As it has already been mentioned, it is sometimes up to your interpretation, as a professional. I'd say most of the regs is in plain English! not being funny or anything... tin hat on!
 
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